Hypertension gang, a question...

[manlymatt83]

I'm 39/m and I'm overweight. But I workout every day. I had blood pressure issues when I was younger. They went away when I was skinny and then during Covid I gained weight, and boom, they came back. Was back to averaging 150 or 160/90 before I started taking action again a few months ago.

That being said, I've made some lifestyle changes recently -- very little drinking, no coffee, better sleep, more fiber. I am also on a small dose of an ARB with no side effects, so maybe I'll stay on it forever either way.

Every day when I wake up, move to the couch, and take my BP, it's great. This morning it was 119/78. Yesterday it was 130/80.

My main issue is what my BP is later in the day. Like today, I was out and about in 20 degree weather walking the dog and running errands. I decided to take my BP when I got back inside and it was 147/86. I sat for about 15 minutes and took it again and luckily it was 135/80.

I'm trying to lose weight. I exercise daily. I had a clear Coronary CT scan with contrast and stress EKG from June 2020... while I don't know what those tests actually look at, my "heart walls looked fine and I aced the CT scan". But it's been 2 years so perhaps some things have changed.

Mostly just want to know if numbers like 147/86 are OK in "passing" as long as when you sit for 5 or 10 minutes they come back down.

 

[deadlyapp]

You don't talk much about your diet other than a few things you cut out. What is your diet like otherwise? What's your salt intake like?

 

[manlymatt83]

You don't talk much about your diet other than a few things you cut out. What is your diet like otherwise? What's your salt intake like?

Diet is / was pretty bad. Was ordering takeout / delivery a lot. Not a lot of fried stuff... but was doing sushi delivery a lot, breakfast burritos, pizza, etc.

Last couple weeks I've been 100% cooking at home. I think it is helping a little.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Try not to mix salty/sweet stuff together. Like using ketchup with salty food. Eat fruit at the start of meal. Drink water, start the meal and finish with a little dessert. Keep processed food to zero or minimum. Eat cucumbers with skin. If you can manage it, do a three day "fast" eating only boiled white rice/boiled chickpeas/fruits with only a pinch of salt for the whole day and nothing fatty/no oil/no dairy or meat.

 

[Torn Mind]

I would suggest an approach of limiting yourself to one single insulin-stimulating meal a day while the others strictly involve food consumption of either 0 GI foods, green vegetables, or bacterially fermented vegetables.

For the one insulin-stimulating meal, you should still start off with a batch of greens or fermented vegetables(i.e Bubbies saukerkraut), then have it with whatever it is you want.

Of insulin-stimulating foods, fibrous and dense is preferable. Hence sweet potatoes are better options than your common grain-based products.

Supplement if you don't have appetitite for foods with less commonly gifted vitamins and minerals, such as selenium, manganese, vitamin K2, etc.

You should also start spreading out time before meals and eventually do at least intermittent fasting.

Sample meal
Greens like broccoli, lettuce, kale, etc
Then a fatty fish with omega 3s(i.e sardines, wild salmon, mackerel)
blue-, black-, or raspberries
Sweet potato
90% dark chocolate
Real aged cheddar like Old Croc.

Other foods to consider consuming include pasture-raised eggs and liver.

 

[deadlyapp]

Diet is / was pretty bad. Was ordering takeout / delivery a lot. Not a lot of fried stuff... but was doing sushi delivery a lot, breakfast burritos, pizza, etc.

Last couple weeks I've been 100% cooking at home. I think it is helping a little.

I'm going to ignore the two posters above - they have absolutely lunatic ideas on healthy and safe dieting, and I hope you can see that as well.

My guess - eating out significantly really reduces / eliminates your ability to manage salt intake. Most places heavily overload salt because it makes most food taste better. The more you cook yourself, and use little to no salt, you should see improvements. I have been borderline hypertensive but almost strictly use a no-salt seasoning now (the one at Costco I highly recommend) and cook nearly all my own food. I do recommend managing your diet as well - you don't need to overload on vegetables, but you should get at least 5 good servings or more of a mixture of fibrous and simple vegetables. Fruit and nuts/seeds/legumes should be eaten sparingly. Carbs you should focus on more complex ones rather than simple digesting ones.

Might be worth adding in a psyllium husk supplement for fiber, since most people don't get enough fiber even if they eat a lot of veggies.

You mention you're exercising - but not to what extent. A mile or two of walking each day is probably not enough if you're naturally predisposed to high blood pressure. Shoot - I workout 5-6 days a week at very high intensity and still have been right on the edge.

 

[Torn Mind]

I'm going to ignore the two posters above - they have absolutely lunatic ideas on healthy and safe dieting, and I hope you can see that as well.

My guess - eating out significantly really reduces / eliminates your ability to manage salt intake. Most places heavily overload salt because it makes most food taste better. The more you cook yourself, and use little to no salt, you should see improvements. I have been borderline hypertensive but almost strictly use a no-salt seasoning now (the one at Costco I highly recommend) and cook nearly all my own food. I do recommend managing your diet as well - you don't need to overload on vegetables, but you should get at least 5 good servings or more of a mixture of fibrous and simple vegetables. Fruit and nuts/seeds/legumes should be eaten sparingly. Carbs you should focus on more complex ones rather than simple digesting ones.

Might be worth adding in a psyllium husk supplement for fiber, since most people don't get enough fiber even if they eat a lot of veggies.

You mention you're exercising - but not to what extent. A mile or two of walking each day is probably not enough if you're naturally predisposed to high blood pressure. Shoot - I workout 5-6 days a week at very high intensity and still have been right on the edge.

Sounds like you got something so personal, everything I say appears lunatic even though strictly on its face, it isn't. Meaning in other words, your amygdala needs a sedative.

I eat only 3oz-4oz of vegetables a day because I can't take more without discomfort.

Insulin stops the process of lipolysis. Thus, if you are arguing that as lunacy simply because I mention limiting the times it should be released a day, you can dwell on just where the contradiction lies.

Other points in brief:
1. Chocolate, being a source of magnesium and stearic acid, confers benefits
2. Sweet potatoes is nutrient dense on the basis of vitamins minerals and good at reducing appetite.
3. Vitamin K2 is necessary for the activation of enyzmes such as osteocalcin and is responsible for deposition of calcium into bones and teeth
4. Fasting is a trigger for autophagy, a biological housecleaning of cells that are not worth keeping around


RE: Insane

Definition of INSANITY

a severely disordered state of the mind usually occurring as a specific disorder… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

It appears you are using the term in the sense of 3a or 3b.

3
a
: extreme folly or unreasonableness
the insanity of violence
His comments were pure insanity.
b
: something utterly foolish or unreasonable
the insanities of modern life

 

[deadlyapp]

Sounds like you got something so personal, everything I say appears lunatic even though strictly on its face, it isn't. Meaning in other words, your amygdala needs a sedative.

I eat only 3oz-4oz of vegetables a day because I can't take more without discomfort.

Insulin stops the process of lipolysis. Thus, if you are arguing that as lunacy simply because I mention limiting the times it should be released a day, you can dwell on just where the contradiction lies.

Other points in brief:
1. Chocolate, being a source of magnesium and stearic acid, confers benefits
2. Sweet potatoes is nutrient dense on the basis of vitamins minerals and good at reducing appetite.
3. Vitamin K2 is necessary for the activation of enyzmes such as osteocalcin and is responsible for deposition of calcium into bones and teeth
4. Fasting is a trigger for autophagy, a biological housecleaning of cells that are not worth keeping around


RE: Insane

Definition of INSANITY

a severely disordered state of the mind usually occurring as a specific disorder… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

It appears you are using the term in the sense of 3a or 3b.

Your points are factual and accurate, my comments regarding the advice that you and Igor spit out regarding diets is that it by and large is focused on hokey fake science and unhealthy behavior around undereating and nutrition.

Similarly, there's nearly no clinical research or any scientific benefit to intermittent fasting other than conjecture. It might stimulate autophagy, but stinulating autophagy may not do anything for our bodies, our body may already be efficient enough to do this on its own. For people who do not exercise in any way, it may be more beneficial.

By and large, fasting is only useful for those who can't lose weight through other means and have to artificially restrict their calories by eating less frequently. It's a fad diet for most.

 

[igor_kavinski]

It might stimulate autophagy, but stinulating autophagy may not do anything for our bodies, our body may already be efficient enough to do this on its own. For people who do not exercise in any way, it may be more beneficial.

Autophagy gets inefficient with age. That's why fasting benefits older people more (past age 35).

Torn Mind's dietary advice is better in terms of results and taste but may take longer to discern the effects of it on the body. My advice is more geared towards those who want to get relatively quicker results and don't mind suffering in the process. Which should be expected because there is no gain without pain.

 

[manlymatt83]

I'm going to ignore the two posters above - they have absolutely lunatic ideas on healthy and safe dieting, and I hope you can see that as well.

My guess - eating out significantly really reduces / eliminates your ability to manage salt intake. Most places heavily overload salt because it makes most food taste better. The more you cook yourself, and use little to no salt, you should see improvements. I have been borderline hypertensive but almost strictly use a no-salt seasoning now (the one at Costco I highly recommend) and cook nearly all my own food. I do recommend managing your diet as well - you don't need to overload on vegetables, but you should get at least 5 good servings or more of a mixture of fibrous and simple vegetables. Fruit and nuts/seeds/legumes should be eaten sparingly. Carbs you should focus on more complex ones rather than simple digesting ones.

Might be worth adding in a psyllium husk supplement for fiber, since most people don't get enough fiber even if they eat a lot of veggies.

You mention you're exercising - but not to what extent. A mile or two of walking each day is probably not enough if you're naturally predisposed to high blood pressure. Shoot - I workout 5-6 days a week at very high intensity and still have been right on the edge.

this is amazing advice. Thank you.

 

[mindless1]

I agree that the first thing to try is reduce sodium intake. Give that at least a week. From there onwards it is more about drifting towards a normal healthy diet, especially one with more minerals (besides sodium), calcium, magnesium, and potassium. Reduce intake of foods low in these nutrients. Normalize on a sustainable diet that does this and give it a few weeks before gravitating towards more niche and quirky diets.

You don't need to fast, BUT even if you change nothing else, you should lose weight doing the obvious thing, eating a little less of the same things you already do, but as mentioned above I would try to change that a little at a time. The typical quick results strategies that cause suffering, don't tend to be a sustainable plan, long-term. I'd only do that type of thing if you are an athlete trying to drop down to a lower weight class for a competitive event.

 

[Torn Mind]

Autophagy gets inefficient with age. That's why fasting benefits older people more (past age 35).

Torn Mind's dietary advice is better in terms of results and taste but may take longer to discern the effects of it on the body. My advice is more geared towards those who want to get relatively quicker results and don't mind suffering in the process. Which should be expected because there is no gain without pain.

Your particular recommendation of white rice makes little sense in terms of improving diet(high GI, insulin-stimulator) and white rice would make compliance more difficult due to the hormonal effects on hunger. Something like an orange would be better than white rice by virtue of the vitamin C

I'm a believer of eating a quality fatty fish at least once a week or more, even if it has to be canned wild red salmon, sardines, or mackerel. These fishes provide a rather complete battery of minerals

Pasture-raised eggs are expensive but taste better than conventional eggs, along with a battery omega-3 profile.

Bone health is a latent matter that can be a cruel issue once old age actually hits(my mom has osteopenia). Getting enough vitamins A+D+K2 is needed to get those osteoblasts going.

For the OP to speed up his results, it makes sense for him to have only one meal in the day that really allows for insulin stimulation and the other two meals consist only of very low or zero GI foods. That way lipolysis is not inhibited by insulin except for that one meal.

Oil consumption must be healthy. That pretty much means olive oil for the most part, and some grass-fed butter for a little decadence. Vegetable oils in general should just be tossed out.

Starting the day with fish+eggs without sugar-based flavor enhancer is a good way to have a filling meal to start the day.

I personally love some Santa Cruz dark roasted unsalted peanut butter as my vitamin E source.

 

[mindless1]

Avoid empty calories and things necessarily enhanced with synthetic vitamins, including white rice, and anything made with white flour. You *can* fit them into a healthy (enough) diet, but the diet will be that much healthier still without them and if we are whittling away at things best left out of a diet, extra carbs that pose a penalty nutritionally would be near the top of the list.

One meal a day regarding insulin stimulation seems like an incomplete concept to me. Eat a little carbs with each meal, none loaded with carbs and none necessarily trying to avoid them, but remember that the excess carbs are a primary reason why many gain weight.

Most people eat too many carbs for their nearer sedentary lifestyle, unless when they talk about exercising a few times a week, this is on top of having a job where they are pretty active.

 

[Torn Mind]

Avoid empty calories and things necessarily enhanced with synthetic vitamins, including white rice, and anything made with white flour. You *can* fit them into a healthy (enough) diet, but the diet will be that much healthier still without them and if we are whittling away at things best left out of a diet, extra carbs that pose a penalty nutritionally would be near the top of the list.

One meal a day regarding insulin stimulation seems like an incomplete concept to me. Eat a little carbs with each meal, none loaded with carbs and none necessarily trying to avoid them, but remember that the excess carbs are a primary reason why many gain weight.

Most people eat too many carbs for their nearer sedentary lifestyle, unless when they talk about exercising a few times a week, this is on top of having a job where they are pretty active.

It would be indeed more optimal to stretch the period between insulin-stimulation out further and further, but compliance can become difficult.
The advice to allow for an insulin-stimulating meal is in part to ease the person addicted to starches and sugars into a fruit or vegetable substitute. That would help avoid cravings for a "binge". Rather than eat the usual candy, pasta, etc; some berries or even a little higher sugar fruit can be eaten instead.

Despite my near-underweight status, my eating habits(prior a shift to an easily maintainable 24 hour schedule caused by a six day fast) were in essence no different from a person vulnerable to obesity but for the "maximum capacity". Rice, spaghetti, pizza, simple starches. That stuff is tempting good.

Even today, I lapsed into eating some spaghetti and three bites of a cake(my mom and sister do not seem willing to heed the dangers of constantly eating refined grains, with mom thinking I'm some saboteur for wanting to avoiding and ceasing consumption white rice).

Even a little bit of starch could be a slippery slope. Chinese stir-fry as my mother prepares it has the meats coated in cornstarch. Might not be a huge amount, but just that little is enough to massively increase the appetite for the cooked meat.

Most drinks also should no longer be consumed, since they are typically sweetened up.

I think Mike Hansen does touch on all the essential basics regarding hypertension, including the nuance regarding salt and insulin resistance.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I don't disagree with the dietary advice of others here. It's obviously up to the OP on which approach suits him best. But speaking from personal experience, 15 day "white rice+fruit+pinch of salt a day" diet reduced my weight drastically. I went down to almost 52 kg from my typical 70+ kg. My blood pressure dropped pretty low (around 90/65) and it was a struggle even to walk. But the good thing was that I developed a huge appetite for food and even eating three times a day, including icecream, I did not gain weight for several months. It's only when I started eating two eggs for breakfast that I started gaining body weight and I'm back to my previous self now, minus the overly bloated midsection.

So if the OP wants a quick fix in only 15 days, I can guarantee that he will see results. But the price for those results will be having to deal with cravings, headaches and general weakness, seeing all kinds of yummy foods in his mind and loss of muscle mass due to decreased protein intake. I suppose the OP could supplement his rice diet with a veggie protein shake that is low in fat, to maintain muscle mass. However, more than 16 grams of protein will interfere with autophagy activation. See here: https://woodlandswellnessmd.com/triggering-autophagy-through-nutrition.html/

 

[deadlyapp]

I don't disagree with the dietary advice of others here. It's obviously up to the OP on which approach suits him best. But speaking from personal experience, 15 day "white rice+fruit+pinch of salt a day" diet reduced my weight drastically. I went down to almost 52 kg from my typical 70+ kg. My blood pressure dropped pretty low (around 90/65) and it was a struggle even to walk. But the good thing was that I developed a huge appetite for food and even eating three times a day, including icecream, I did not gain weight for several months. It's only when I started eating two eggs for breakfast that I started gaining body weight and I'm back to my previous self now, minus the overly bloated midsection.

So if the OP wants a quick fix in only 15 days, I can guarantee that he will see results. But the price for those results will be having to deal with cravings, headaches and general weakness, seeing all kinds of yummy foods in his mind and loss of muscle mass due to decreased protein intake. I suppose the OP could supplement his rice diet with a veggie protein shake that is low in fat, to maintain muscle mass. However, more than 16 grams of protein will interfere with autophagy activation. See here: https://woodlandswellnessmd.com/triggering-autophagy-through-nutrition.html/

Autophagy is a buzzword no different than any fad diet. You'd be better off removing it completely from your lexicon.

No different than the crazy rush towards keto that everyone did a few years back. Or paleo. Or carnivore.

Stop caring about specific foods, specific timing, and specific responses. Eat balanced macronutrients, manage your micronutrients (and supplement if needed), and eat for the amount of energy expenditure you have. It ain't rocket science and anyone trying to tell you it is is probably trying to sell you something.

 

[mindless1]

it was a struggle even to walk

I'm sorry that you had to go through that.

It does not seem like something that should be advocated.

There is a middle ground.

 

[igor_kavinski]

It does not seem like something that should be advocated.

There is a middle ground.

True. Depends on how desperate you are. I was very desperate and determined to get rid of my diabetes. Thankfully, it worked. Hopefully, that was a hard enough lesson for me not to devolve into a diabetic state again.

 

[Torn Mind]

Autophagy is a buzzword no different than any fad diet. You'd be better off removing it completely from your lexicon.

No different than the crazy rush towards keto that everyone did a few years back. Or paleo. Or carnivore.

Stop caring about specific foods, specific timing, and specific responses. Eat balanced macronutrients, manage your micronutrients (and supplement if needed), and eat for the amount of energy expenditure you have. It ain't rocket science and anyone trying to tell you it is is probably trying to sell you something.

Autophagy is a very real phenomenon with resources being thrown at studying it.

It will be no different from the dispute of whether the limeys were right prior to actual scientific validation.

Bare minimum, it appears to beneficial with regards to neurodegeneration.

What We Learned From Big Data for Autophagy Research

Autophagy is the process by which cytoplasmic components are engulfed in double-membraned vesicles before being delivered to the lysosome to be degraded. Defective autophagy has been linked to a vast array of human pathologies. The molecular mechanism ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Intermittent Fasting Extends Healthspan through Circadian Autophagy

Intermittent fasting extends a healthy lifespan in fruit flies by promoting nighttime autophagy, a process that could be stimulated in humans pharmacologically.

www.genengnews.com

 

[Torn Mind]

For a more "conventional" slant, Mike Hansen goes into some of the details behind intermittent fasting and autophagy.

Basically, it's about having efficient mitochondria.

Where this video fails is the lumping of stearic acid along with palmitic acid as a substance that impairs mitochondrial function where there is strong evidence to the contrary; meaning low-sugar chocolate is a very compelling eat but he doesn't suggest that. (Banana milkshake study)

 

[tcsenter]

Are you married i.e. sleep regularly with a partner? Have you ever been told that you snore, stop breathing for short periods? Ever wake up suddenly with the sensation that you were being smothered, drowning, out of breath or dreaming that you were?

An insidious increase in blood pressure can be a consequence of sleep apnea, to which obstructive sleep apnea is most common and very underdiagnosed.

 

[manlymatt83]

Are you married i.e. sleep regularly with a partner? Have you ever been told that you snore, stop breathing for short periods? Ever wake up suddenly with the sensation that you were being smothered, drowning, out of breath or dreaming that you were?

An insidious increase in blood pressure can be a consequence of sleep apnea, to which obstructive sleep apnea is most common and very underdiagnosed.

no I don’t have sleep apnea. Had two jaw surgeries in the last 4 years and my airway is amazing now so luckily I’m good in that arena. Appreciate the suggestion.