Hybrid car question (sigh)

[Thump553]

From what I've seen right now it does not make financial sense to buy a hybrid. We bought a Prius in January-off the lot with a $900 discount. I've been looking for another car recently. Every Toyota dealer in my state has a 4+ month waiting list on the Prius, full list price and a non-refundable $1k deposit. One dealer have five "program" cars in, all with between 6-10k miles. List price new is approximately $23k as equipped. The dealer was asking $33k-and sold one of the four the very first day they came in. Honda hybirds and Nissan hybrids are full list with about a month wait here.

Since your Jeep still runs, I'd hold off a bit-for sure the gas sipper segment of the market is going to expand. Alternatively, since you seem to be attracted to the big vehicles you may want to pick up some gently used SUV now-their prices are way, way down, and just bite the bullet on the money you will throw away on gas.

BTW, I'm 6'1" and north of 200 lbs and have no problem whatsoever fitting in the Prius.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: Thump553
From what I've seen right now it does not make financial sense to buy a hybrid. We bought a Prius in January-off the lot with a $900 discount. I've been looking for another car recently. Every Toyota dealer in my state has a 4+ month waiting list on the Prius, full list price and a non-refundable $1k deposit. One dealer have five "program" cars in, all with between 6-10k miles. List price new is approximately $23k as equipped. The dealer was asking $33k-and sold one of the four the very first day they came in. Honda hybirds and Nissan hybrids are full list with about a month wait here.

Since your Jeep still runs, I'd hold off a bit-for sure the gas sipper segment of the market is going to expand. Alternatively, since you seem to be attracted to the big vehicles you may want to pick up some gently used SUV now-their prices are way, way down, and just bite the bullet on the money you will throw away on gas.

BTW, I'm 6'1" and north of 200 lbs and have no problem whatsoever fitting in the Prius.

I agree, gas sippers are selling at a premium now, so unless you can find a good deal at or below invoice it makes sense to wait. If I was buying new I would go for a Prius, assuming I could find one at normal invoice.

 

[hpkeeper]

Politics aside... and comparing apples to apples...

if I buy a non hybrid 2008 Honda Civic that gets 37 miles to the gallon rather than a Toyota Prius that gets 46 miles to the gallon...
at 4.00 a gallon, aren't I measuring the difference between 46 and the 37?

Shouldn't we be measuring the cost difference between the two in savings by 9 (or whatever number is the difference in gas mileage between the two vehicles?) miles?
That being said, trying to save by buying a hybrid is essentially negligible?
it's not as if I'm getting 0 miles, it's not a difference of 46 miles, it's only a difference of 9.

I'm slightly confused on the math of all this.

 

[Thump553]

Based on our experience, 46 mpg is low for a Prius-we get 50-52 on highway driving, more in city and the car isn't really broken in yet (about 7k miles). Based on postings at priuschat.com, lots of people get 60+.

I'm also not sure how realistic 36 mpg is for a Civic, on regular cars EPA numbers tend to pure fantasy.

That said, see me post a few above-there is such a premium charged for hybrids in the current hysterical climate that it doesn't presently make financial sense to buy one, probably.

 

[PingSpike]

Well, I was just going by the EPA combined figures. I think the 37 for the civic is the highway mileage right?

And I agree...with the current hysteria buying one new is probably going to be a dealership rape job anyway. I read somewhere the other day that honda had some new hybrid stuff in the pipe for maybe 2009? Not sure.

 

[desy]

I prefer environmentally simpler vehicles than a hybrid
Two drivetrains complex electronics and too much batteries
A small simple car is cheaper up front and better environmentally

 

[StageLeft]

There are plenty of cars in the same size class as the Prius that get around a 25 mpg combined. You have your opinion, I have mine.

And they are not both right. Please indicate a car the same size as the prius with similar power (i.e. not much) that gets only 25 mpg combined). Even larger cars like an accord get better than that.

 

[bamx2]

A little more on this at AT P&N -

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...erthread=y&STARTPAGE=2

 

[JeepinEd]

I own both a Prius and a Jeep.
The Pirus has almost as much interior space as the Jeep, except the jeep has more head room.

I posted my real life Jeep vs Prius comparison on another thread, but here it is:

140 Mile daily commute = Approx. 36K miles

My Jeep = 13 MPG
Prius = 49.9 MPG (Let's round off to 50 MPG) -This is my average over the last 16000 miles.

Jeep = 36000 / 13 = 2769 Gallons @ 3.70 = $10,245
Prius = 36000 / 50 = 720 Gallos @ 3.70 = $2,664

Savings = $7581 / year

I know this is an extreme example, but in my case, it's reality.
Now, when I drive my Jeep, I get stares from the Prius drivers and when I'm in my Prius, I get shit from the SUV drivers.

BTW, the Prius batteries are 100% recyclable and were still functional when I sold my first Prius at 240K miles.

 

[Jumpem]

Originally posted by: Extelleron
Posted this in the other thread but might as well post it here:

If you are looking at the Toyota Prius, the hybrid-related components are warrantied for longer than the rest of the car, 8yrs/100k miles: http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/warranty.html

I would think other Hybrids would be the same deal but you will have to check that out.

I don't speak from first-hand experience, but from what I see, Hybrids are great but they are not necessarily the cheapest (even considering lifetime costs) cars. You can generally get a similarly featured non-hybrid for several thousand less than a hybrid vehicle, and it will take a lot of driving to make up for that difference.

For example, I can get a fully featured Honda Civic that gets 25/36 MPG for $23k, and that is with leather seats and navigation. But if I wanted a fully featured Prius w/ leather, I would be paying ~$27k. The Prius gets better mileage (48/45) but I will not see a cost benefit unless I drive way more than the average person.

That's it for the battery warranty? That'd last me three years.

 

[SearchMaster]

Originally posted by: JeepinEd
I own both a Prius and a Jeep.
The Pirus has almost as much interior space as the Jeep, except the jeep has more head room.

I posted my real life Jeep vs Prius comparison on another thread, but here it is:

140 Mile daily commute = Approx. 36K miles

My Jeep = 13 MPG
Prius = 49.9 MPG (Let's round off to 50 MPG) -This is my average over the last 16000 miles.

Jeep = 36000 / 13 = 2769 Gallons @ 3.70 = $10,245
Prius = 36000 / 50 = 720 Gallos @ 3.70 = $2,664

Savings = $7581 / year

I know this is an extreme example, but in my case, it's reality.
Now, when I drive my Jeep, I get stares from the Prius drivers and when I'm in my Prius, I get shit from the SUV drivers.

BTW, the Prius batteries are 100% recyclable and were still functional when I sold my first Prius at 240K miles.

The point everyone is trying to make is that if you were looking to buy a new, fuel-efficient car you wouldn't cross-shop a Jeep and a Prius. You would cross-shop a Prius, a Corolla, a Civic, maybe a Camry/Accord. Yes, you save a tremendous amount of money driving the Prius over the Jeep, but you would also save a lot of money driving one of the other cars I mentioned as well. For example, using your calculations with a Civic at 36mpg, the Prius is saving you $1036/yr. The Civic is still saving you $6500+ over the Jeep.

BTW, I like the Prius.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: hpkeeper
Politics aside... and comparing apples to apples...

if I buy a non hybrid 2008 Honda Civic that gets 37 miles to the gallon rather than a Toyota Prius that gets 46 miles to the gallon...
at 4.00 a gallon, aren't I measuring the difference between 46 and the 37?

Shouldn't we be measuring the cost difference between the two in savings by 9 (or whatever number is the difference in gas mileage between the two vehicles?) miles?
That being said, trying to save by buying a hybrid is essentially negligible?
it's not as if I'm getting 0 miles, it's not a difference of 46 miles, it's only a difference of 9.

I'm slightly confused on the math of all this.

It's more than that though. A hybrid will retain its value and not depreciate like a normal car. I know here in the DC area used hybrids are worth more than the owner paid for them... yeah they're that much in demand. So yeah, you may save 5K in gas over 100,000 miles but you'll save another 4-7K in non-depreciation costs (depending on where you live of course).

 

[mc866]

Originally posted by: desy
I prefer environmentally simpler vehicles than a hybrid
Two drivetrains complex electronics and too much batteries
A small simple car is cheaper up front and better environmentally

+1

I'm of the opinion that hybrids aren't worth the premium you need to pay just to save money on gas. I agree that most people are better off getting a Fit or a Yaris or something that will provide very good gas milage. In the grand scheme of things are you really saving yourself money if you need to pay $5-$7K more for a hybrid?

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: hpkeeper
Politics aside... and comparing apples to apples...

if I buy a non hybrid 2008 Honda Civic that gets 37 miles to the gallon rather than a Toyota Prius that gets 46 miles to the gallon...
at 4.00 a gallon, aren't I measuring the difference between 46 and the 37?

Shouldn't we be measuring the cost difference between the two in savings by 9 (or whatever number is the difference in gas mileage between the two vehicles?) miles?
That being said, trying to save by buying a hybrid is essentially negligible?
it's not as if I'm getting 0 miles, it's not a difference of 46 miles, it's only a difference of 9.

I'm slightly confused on the math of all this.

It's more than that though. A hybrid will retain its value and not depreciate like a normal car. I know here in the DC area used hybrids are worth more than the owner paid for them... yeah they're that much in demand. So yeah, you may save 5K in gas over 100,000 miles but you'll save another 4-7K in non-depreciation costs (depending on where you live of course).

Low depreciation is a knock against the hybrid if you're planning to buy a used one to save money, and means almost nothing to the person who tends to drive the car into the ground. Its only really a signifigant advantage is for those that swap vehicles frequenty...and that is not really a money saving strategy for car ownership to begin with.

Frankly, I think including depreciation in the calculations is disingenious of consumer reports. Those "savings" can only be realized by selling the car, in which case it will most likely have to be replaced with something else anyway.