Hybrid car question (sigh)

[hpkeeper]

Hi everyone,

Glad to be in "the garage" found this place due to trolls (aka-wannabe mods) in the OT forums... so I'll try this again:

The Story:

I have been looking into getting a new vehicle for quite some time, probably over a year now, I currently drive a 1997 Jeep Wrangler, it's been a great vehicle, but it's just old and with gas prices going up, it just isn't economical anymore. Initially when gas prices were at a reasonable price here in the U.S. I was looking into a Hummer H3, I'm 6'3" - 250.

I found out that it's easier for me to get into a vehicle that is wider than it is deep, I'd rather have more shoulder room than leg room I suppose. Since that time I started looking at smaller SUV's and ran into the Jeep Patriot, being a jeep fan I kind of started liking the patriot for it's cost.... an H3 not only cost me a lot in fuel, but it also was taxing on my income, so a patriot fit better into my budget. I like being up high, being able to see... the "driving experience" that is evidently given to you by some cars, I'm not really interested in. Comfort and the ability to be up and see.

I've started looking at more fuel efficient vehicles because my girlfriend and I have recently graduated college, our parents live at least 90 miles away either direction we go and we like visiting them when whenever possible. But it's killing our budget driving vehicles that pretty consistently get under 20miles/gallon. I'm starting to look at a Prius... nothing is out of the realms of possibilities right now, just looking to save a buck at the pump. Our budget is about $18k-25k.

The Question:

...so....

What vehicle do we get?

We're scared of buying a hybrid vehicle because we feel that five years down the road we're going to have to replace the batteries in one for the tune of $5k, where it would be equally as expensive to buy a non-hybrid vehicle and just pay for the gas.

Is there any truth to that?
Where might I find out that type of information?

Thanks for any help you can offer.


~ThE KeEp~

 

[iamwiz82]

Considering that Toyota hasn't replaced a battery pack (because of age)on a Prius yet, I'd say your fears are unwarranted.

 

[woodie1]

I don't have time to look it up, but I think the battery packs have a 7 to 10 year warranty depending on the mfr. You shouldn't let that be your guide. Find a certified used Camry Hybrid or Prius and the dealer will know what the warranty is on everything.

 

[Throckmorton]

I don't see the point in driving a vehicle like the Patriot at all. It looks like a Jeep and has the logo on it, but it's not an offroad vehicle. Why bother with a compromise like that? If you want a car, drive a car, preferably the most efficient one possible without spending more than you need to. If it were up to me I'd spend $5k on a used Civic and be happy enough with the 35mpg. Then I can easily afford to spend $6k on a Cherokee with a 5" lift, and I have all bases I'd want covered.

 

[hpkeeper]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82
Considering that Toyota hasn't replaced a battery pack (because of age)on a Prius yet, I'd say your fears are unwarranted.

How long has the prius been out for though? long enough for the batteries to wear out on one? my personal life expectancy of their batteries is 5 years... but if they're warranties for longer, then I guess I'm wrong.

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

I don't see the point in driving a vehicle like the Patriot at all. It looks like a Jeep and has the logo on it, but it's not an offroad vehicle. Why bother with a compromise like that? If you want a car, drive a car, preferably the most efficient one possible without spending more than you need to. If it were up to me I'd spend $5k on a used Civic and be happy enough with the 35mpg. Then I can easily afford to spend $6k on a Cherokee with a 5" lift, and I have all bases I'd want covered.

I'm not trying to compromise between on and off road, however if I were, I just don't off road hardly as much as I use to anymore. So why spend the money on a vehicle with the capability but will hardly ever use for that purpose.

I'm more interested in the space and comfort of the ride. I live in upstate new york so the ability to get out of a foot of snow has it's upsides. Other than that I don't really need off road capability, it's about comfort and size with the SUV's for me.


~ThE KeEp~

 

[Dman877]

My folks have a 2004 Prius and when they bought it, it came with a 10 years warranty on the hybrid powertrain. I don't if they've changed their warranty since or not though.

 

[Extelleron]

Posted this in the other thread but might as well post it here:

If you are looking at the Toyota Prius, the hybrid-related components are warrantied for longer than the rest of the car, 8yrs/100k miles: http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/warranty.html

I would think other Hybrids would be the same deal but you will have to check that out.

I don't speak from first-hand experience, but from what I see, Hybrids are great but they are not necessarily the cheapest (even considering lifetime costs) cars. You can generally get a similarly featured non-hybrid for several thousand less than a hybrid vehicle, and it will take a lot of driving to make up for that difference.

For example, I can get a fully featured Honda Civic that gets 25/36 MPG for $23k, and that is with leather seats and navigation. But if I wanted a fully featured Prius w/ leather, I would be paying ~$27k. The Prius gets better mileage (48/45) but I will not see a cost benefit unless I drive way more than the average person.

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: hpkeeper

Originally posted by: iamwiz82
Considering that Toyota hasn't replaced a battery pack (because of age)on a Prius yet, I'd say your fears are unwarranted.

How long has the prius been out for though? long enough for the batteries to wear out on one? my personal life expectancy of their batteries is 5 years... but if they're warranties for longer, then I guess I'm wrong.

~ThE KeEp~

The Prius first went on sale in 1997 in Japan, so it's had a long life.

 

[zerocool84]

If you really want a cheap car with great gas mileage is a 90's civic hatch. those things get around 40mpg, are cheap, but are kinda old by now.

 

[StageLeft]

Batteries do last a long time on them, but let's pretend batteries will never cost you anything. The reality is STILL, even at $4/gallon, that it's hard to make the case for a hybrid over a non-hybrid in the same line. The price premium is massive and it will still take amny, many miles to break even.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Batteries should be the least of you're worries. The warranties are more than adequate, and battery pack rebuilding / rebalancing is finally occurring with enthusiasts like myself who have an electronics / HV background. During spring break I replaced my almost 8 year old Insight subpacks with 2004 Civic subpacks that were tested to 100% capacity. I did the testing myself. Afterwards I rebalanced the Insight pack that was testing at ~65% (weakest subpacks), and brought the whole pack up to 90% capacity. This is an 8 year old pack with 153k miles and it is now like new. They were even warrantied to 150k miles / 10 years, but never had to be replaced.

The only issue is price of a hybrid vs price of a non hybrid, if you can find a good deal go for it, but currently you will pay a premium. Also, there are only 3 hybrid cars and 1 hybrid suv worth getting for MPG.

1. The Insight - Max mpg hands down, but it is now expensive, hard to find and a 2 seater
2. Prius - Max mpg 5 seater, starts at 22k new and most likely will have a waiting list, used are expensive.
3. Civic Hybrid, lower mpg than the Prius, otherwise comparable.

1. Ford Escape - Max mpg SUV, expensive

All the other current hybrids don't get high enough mpg to justify the extra cost unless you just want a hybrid badge.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Btw, at:

$4.00 a gallon
At 100,000 miles you will have bought $16,000 in gas for 25 mpg or $8,000 in gas for 50 mpg, an $8,000 difference.

I'm betting gas is going to be higher than $4.00 before you hit 100,000 on your next car ....

 

[Toastedlightly]

What sort of batteries are used in hybrids (NiMH, NiCd, Li..)?

 

[Uhtrinity]

The top four I mentioned are NiMH, and appear to have a very long lifespan. Li is upcoming, but it will probably be a few more years until they hit mainstream for hybrids.

Btw, I paid $275 shipped for my 2004 pack, far from the $3,000 the dealerships charge for new. This is common when buying used from junkyards as there is little to no demand for used packs.

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Batteries do last a long time on them, but let's pretend batteries will never cost you anything. The reality is STILL, even at $4/gallon, that it's hard to make the case for a hybrid over a non-hybrid in the same line. The price premium is massive and it will still take amny, many miles to break even.

Hybrids are for rich people. I'll always save more money by buying used cars

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Batteries do last a long time on them, but let's pretend batteries will never cost you anything. The reality is STILL, even at $4/gallon, that it's hard to make the case for a hybrid over a non-hybrid in the same line. The price premium is massive and it will still take amny, many miles to break even.

Hybrids are for rich people. I'll always save more money by buying used cars

I'm far from rich and I saved money buying a used hybrid and I save money driving it

65mpg average since I bought it, and since I went PHEV the averages are 80 mpg+. Those are total tank averages btw, not single trips.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
Btw, at:

$4.00 a gallon
At 100,000 miles you will have bought $16,000 in gas for 25 mpg or $8,000 in gas for 50 mpg, an $8,000 difference.

I'm betting gas is going to be higher than $4.00 before you hit 100,000 on your next car ....

Aren't you kind of fudging the numbers there to make a point? The prius gets 46 combined. There are plenty of small cars that get greater than 30 combined, using the same 2008 EPA numbers. So its more like $13,333 versus $8,695. Obviously the hybrid is better, and I know you were just trying to make the math easy...but 50% and 100% better are two very different numbers!

The base model corrola is MSRP of 14,400 or so...the base model prius is 21,500. I don't know if they have more standard equipment or not...but I can't buy one or the other cheaper (minus haggling of course). So thats a $7100 difference in price. At $4/gallon gas...you're at 150k miles before you break even, thats a long time before you get a ROI. And by then your battery warrenty is gone and the car is already starting to get old.

You are correct about gas prices, no one really knows where they are going to go...but the safe money is not down, which might make equation work better, but thats just speculation at this point. There will almost certainly be more and probably better hybrids available in the future that either get higher MPG or have a more reasonable cost differential. I say, the smart way to go is to wait until the math makes sense first.

Its to bad the insight isn't still for sale, because that really was an efficient people mover if there's only 1 or 2 of you...I don't know how expensive a new one of those was.

 

[ViviTheMage]

Originally posted by: woodie1


I don't have time to look it up, but I think the battery packs have a 7 to 10 year warranty depending on the mfr. You shouldn't let that be your guide. Find a certified used Camry Hybrid or Prius and the dealer will know what the warranty is on everything.

I thought the batteries were said to last the life of the car?

 

[mwmorph]

Ive said it before, but i'm going to say it again, here's my $0.02, I recently talked with an energy professor and he brought up a valid point.

I don't want to get political but every time you spend money on gas, your money is going to mostly corrupt Russia (especially since Putin has been taking control of oil companies for the government), Venezuela(almost all of the profits anytime you go to Citgo), who hates us or the middle east, where invariably, a small percentage finds it's way to countries who either support, fund terrorism, or just straight up hate us and would like ot see us dead.

Even if you break even on cost, which you will surely do with gas going up like this, hybrids create
a) more jobs
and
b) more of the money goes to countries that don't hate us like the US, Mexico and Japan

It just makes more economic sense. For every Escape/Vue/Tahoe Hybrid you buy, we keep a good amount of money in America, for every Prius/Altima/Civic Hybrid, we give it to one of our strongest allies, Japan while supporting jobs here in America too. Also, production of those cars creates/supports more jobs than the petroleum industry does. Manufacturing cars just is a better proposition than drilling for oil.

If it as up to me and it was the exact same amount of money or even a bit more, I'd go for the hybrid or diesel every time over buying more oil.

With oil prices creeping up, the economic proposition also looks better. Oil will not be $3.75 forever. In Europe, gas is up to $9.xx a gallon in London, granted they have much higher petroleum taxes(America is the developed nation with the lowest petrol taxes). Gas has already breach $4 and in 8 years $5 is unavoidable, $6 incredibly likely imo.

It'd be rash and irresponsible not to look at better mileage cars if it meets your needs and performance.

People tend to overlook Hybrids on an economic basis, but why when it comes down tothe macroeconomics, it just makes sense?

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
Btw, at:

$4.00 a gallon
At 100,000 miles you will have bought $16,000 in gas for 25 mpg or $8,000 in gas for 50 mpg, an $8,000 difference.

I'm betting gas is going to be higher than $4.00 before you hit 100,000 on your next car ....

Considering there is no car that gets 25 mpg and its hybrid version (or comporable car) gets 50 mpg, the comparison is not meaningful.

I'm far from rich and I saved money buying a used hybrid and I save money driving it

65mpg average since I bought it, and since I went PHEV the averages are 80 mpg+. Those are total tank averages btw, not single trips.

Yes, but most people need more than two seats.

mwmorphYou're adding in subjective, unquantifiable arguments. The philosophies behind buying a hybrid are impossible to reconcile with hard numbers that can otherwise make or break a decision for one.

People tend to overlook Hybrids on an economic basis, but why when it comes down tothe macroeconomics, it just makes sense?

I cannot impact macroeconomics myself and thus using them for my personal budget/economics does not make any sense _at all_.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
Btw, at:

$4.00 a gallon
At 100,000 miles you will have bought $16,000 in gas for 25 mpg or $8,000 in gas for 50 mpg, an $8,000 difference.

I'm betting gas is going to be higher than $4.00 before you hit 100,000 on your next car ....

Aren't you kind of fudging the numbers there to make a point? The prius gets 46 combined. There are plenty of small cars that get greater than 30 combined, using the same 2008 EPA numbers. So its more like $13,333 versus $8,695. Obviously the hybrid is better, and I know you were just trying to make the math easy...but 50% and 100% better are two very different numbers!

The base model corrola is MSRP of 14,400 or so...the base model prius is 21,500. I don't know if they have more standard equipment or not...but I can't buy one or the other cheaper (minus haggling of course). So thats a $7100 difference in price. At $4/gallon gas...you're at 150k miles before you break even, thats a long time before you get a ROI. And by then your battery warrenty is gone and the car is already starting to get old.

You are correct about gas prices, no one really knows where they are going to go...but the safe money is not down, which might make equation work better, but thats just speculation at this point. There will almost certainly be more and probably better hybrids available in the future that either get higher MPG or have a more reasonable cost differential. I say, the smart way to go is to wait until the math makes sense first.

Its to bad the insight isn't still for sale, because that really was an efficient people mover if there's only 1 or 2 of you...I don't know how expensive a new one of those was.

I threw out 25 mpg because that is what most people get. Also, most people who buy hybrids actually drive for mpg. My parents have had their Prius for almost 2 months and already average 60mpg for mixed driving, so 50 mpg is very realistic. EPA standards are very easy to beat, but it does help to have realtime mpg numbers. Almost anyone can get these using something like a scangauge, but hybrids do it already.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Its to bad the insight isn't still for sale, because that really was an efficient people mover if there's only 1 or 2 of you...I don't know how expensive a new one of those was.

The original window sticker for mine shows $18,800, I bought used one year ago for $6,400, and could easily get ~$12,000 if I sold now. If the price goes up much more I might sell and get a Prius.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: mwmorph
Ive said it before, but i'm going to say it again, here's my $0.02, I recently talked with an energy professor and he brought up a valid point.

I don't want to get political but every time you spend money on gas, your money is going to mostly corrupt Russia (especially since Putin has been taking control of oil companies for the government), Venezuela(almost all of the profits anytime you go to Citgo), who hates us or the middle east, where invariably, a small percentage finds it's way to countries who either support, fund terrorism, or just straight up hate us and would like ot see us dead.

Even if you break even on cost, which you will surely do with gas going up like this, hybrids create
a) more jobs
and
b) more of the money goes to countries that don't hate us like the US, Mexico and Japan

It just makes more economic sense. For every Escape/Vue/Tahoe Hybrid you buy, we keep a good amount of money in America, for every Prius/Altima/Civic Hybrid, we give it to one of our strongest allies, Japan while supporting jobs here in America too. Also, production of those cars creates/supports more jobs than the petroleum industry does. Manufacturing cars just is a better proposition than drilling for oil.

If it as up to me and it was the exact same amount of money or even a bit more, I'd go for the hybrid or diesel every time over buying more oil.

With oil prices creeping up, the economic proposition also looks better. Oil will not be $3.75 forever. In Europe, gas is up to $9.xx a gallon in London, granted they have much higher petroleum taxes(America is the developed nation with the lowest petrol taxes). Gas has already breach $4 and in 8 years $5 is unavoidable, $6 incredibly likely imo.

It'd be rash and irresponsible not to look at better mileage cars if it meets your needs and performance.

People tend to overlook Hybrids on an economic basis, but why when it comes down tothe macroeconomics, it just makes sense?

Besides saving monthly expenses, this is why I drive the Insight. I am using 1/2 to 1/3 the gas I used in my Saturn. On top of that I give an extra $3 to $4 a month to Idaho power which is hydroelectric that displaces at least $9 a month that would have gone to oil. Keep in mind this is my normal 55 mpg city vs the 85mpg minimum I get by plugging in for my daily driving. It is a small statement, but one I still like to make.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
Btw, at:

$4.00 a gallon
At 100,000 miles you will have bought $16,000 in gas for 25 mpg or $8,000 in gas for 50 mpg, an $8,000 difference.

I'm betting gas is going to be higher than $4.00 before you hit 100,000 on your next car ....

Considering there is no car that gets 25 mpg and its hybrid version (or comporable car) gets 50 mpg, the comparison is not meaningful.

I'm far from rich and I saved money buying a used hybrid and I save money driving it

65mpg average since I bought it, and since I went PHEV the averages are 80 mpg+. Those are total tank averages btw, not single trips.

Yes, but most people need more than two seats.

mwmorphYou're adding in subjective, unquantifiable arguments. The philosophies behind buying a hybrid are impossible to reconcile with hard numbers that can otherwise make or break a decision for one.

People tend to overlook Hybrids on an economic basis, but why when it comes down tothe macroeconomics, it just makes sense?

I cannot impact macroeconomics myself and thus using them for my personal budget/economics does not make any sense _at all_.

There are plenty of cars in the same size class as the Prius that get around a 25 mpg combined. You have your opinion, I have mine.

And as far as a 2 seater, it works for me, as it would work for plenty of others who drive to work by themselves. It is no different than those who choose a motorcycle for a commute, only safer and can be driven year around.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
I threw out 25 mpg because that is what most people get. Also, most people who buy hybrids actually drive for mpg. My parents have had their Prius for almost 2 months and already average 60mpg for mixed driving, so 50 mpg is very realistic. EPA standards are very easy to beat, but it does help to have realtime mpg numbers. Almost anyone can get these using something like a scangauge, but hybrids do it already.

Honestly, it doesn't really matter what most people get as it has little relevancy to the comparison. You have to compare apples to apples to get as good of comparison numbers as possible. The easiest is the civic since its basically the same car: 42/combined hybrid, 29/combined regular. Its harder with the prius since it doesn't have a more direct gasoline equivilent...but I compared the corolla before.

You can get better mpg out of a hybrid by driving with mpg in mind, yes...but again, the same can be done with a regular car. EPA standards are very easy to beat, I'll agree...but they at least have some measure of consistency to allow of a somewhat fair comparison between vehicles. I don't like comparing what people "actually get" since it has to many unknown variables. But, for what its worth, the 2008 toyota prius, based on 67 vehicles, gets 46.1...the EPA combined is, 46. The corolla and yaris both have a less impressive sample size reporting, but they have ~38, compared with EPAs of 31, 32. I don't think that means much, again, to many unknowns.

Just my opinion on the matter. There are of course political and philosophical reasons to drive a hybrid as well, but I don't think you can put a monetary value on those...which is the only perspective I'm looking at.