HVAC contractors telling me I need new furnace. Am I being taken? pics added

[Aharami]

update:
since there is a 30% tax credit, I'm looking to replace my old, rusty one with a 95% efficient one. I have two quotes from two separate contractors. Which do you think is a better deal?

- A York TG9S040A08MP, 40k BTU furnace for $2600, but the (licensed) contractor wants me to take the permit out myself. He will do all the work, make sure it passes inspection, give me a receipt, and warranty labor for a year. He has a HVAC license, but doesnt have a electrician's license and him taking out the permit will raise the cost by a few hundred since he will have to hire a licensed electrician. Met the guy, seems legit, and is A+ rated on BBB.

- A Ruud UGRL04EMAES 44k BTU dual stage furnace for $2850 installed. This contractor will take care of the permits himself. He too, will warranty labor for a year.

Which do you think is a better furnace? Naturally, since it is only for the basement, Im inclined to go with the lower priced one, unless York furnaces are crap.

Thanks.

original post:

I have a 15'x36' walkout basement, and my basement has it's own separate heat and AC. The furnace sits in the front of the basement and has a 4" diameter metal exhaust pipe that runs the length of the basement and exhausts out the back.

Since the pipe is metal and not PVC, I know that my furnace is not a high efficiency furnace. There is a induced fan motor right before the foundation wall penetration that pulls the exhaust. Like this

Im looking to finish my basement and because of fire codes, I have to leave 18" clearance from the pipe and studs. So the soffit will end up being a lot larger than if the pipe wasnt there. So Im looking to have the pipe relocated so that it penetrates out the side of the unit and had a few heating contractors come in to take a look.

Two so far have told me that I might have a cracked heat exchanger (apparently evidenced by the rust - red arrows) closer pic of furnace

and that my furnace is at the end of its life - furnace is 20 yrs old. They strongly recommended that I replace the furnace with a high efficiency one. One quoted me a price of $500 to relocate the pipe, or $3800 to replace the furnace. He really tried to sell the new furnace route by saying that this year there is a $1500 tax credit and a $300 Honeywell rebate for high efficiency furnaces. So new furnace will be 3800-1500-300=$2000.

But Im still not convinced that I should replace the furnace as it is working great. Especially considering it only heats the basement and once I finish up the basement, it will be much warmer down there (currently gets pretty cold - ~40-50F if I dont have the basement heat on).

What say ATOT? Should I

a) just pay the $500 to replace the pipes like I originally intended, and once the furnace dies, forget about it? Or maybe put in some other type of radiated heating system (not another forced air unit).

b) take advantage of all the tax credits and rebates and replace the furnace. A much more expensive proposition considering that greatly increase my basement remodel budget, and cut into my home theater build budget.

c) leave the pipe where it is, build a larger soffit, or change current pipes to 4" double wall metal pipes so I can stud right next to it and not have to leave the 18" clearance.

My basement plans

 

[Engineer]

The $1,500 tax credit is 30% of installed cost up to a max of $1,500. You would need to spend $5,000 to get the $1,500 (assuming that I recall correctly).

 

[Aharami]

The $1,500 tax credit is 30% of installed cost up to a max of $1,500. You would need to spend $5,000 to get the $1,500 (assuming that I recall correctly).

ah that makes replacing the furnace even less attractive. That contractor didnt mention that it's 30% - kept telling me it is $1500

 

[Aharami]

and how does the tax credit work? Usually I get back a decent sized refund on tax time (yea I know, Im giving the govt an interest free loan). So will this tax credit increase my refund by the full 30% or $1140?

 

[Engineer]

The 20 year old furnace is most likely a 60% (when new) efficiency furnace. A new one would be 95+% efficient. Not sure how much you use your current one or your average bill but you could save a ton. Also, a 20 year old furnace could kick the bucket at any time. I would replace it (and will do mine this year after my job settles in) just to get the tax credit. Of course, I wonder if HVAC companies are jacking up the price to get more of that 30% credit for themselves (I would guess yes).

 

[Engineer]

and how does the tax credit work? Usually I get back a decent sized refund on tax time (yea I know, Im giving the govt an interest free loan). So will this tax credit increase my refund by the full 30% or $1140?

Yes.

 

[Aharami]

Engineer, keep in mind that this furnace only heats up the basement. Currently I keep the basement at 50F since it is unfinished, and in the winter I do hear it going on often. But Im guessing once I add subflooring, carpet, frames and R19 insulation, basement will be much warmer, and the heat wont kick on as much.

My FiL mentioned that once this furnace kicks the bucket, I can just add some sort of natural gas passive heating system - a fireplace type unit that sits in the corner.

With that said, do you think I should still replace it?

 

[Engineer]

Engineer, keep in mind that this furnace only heats up the basement. Currently I keep the basement at 50F since it is unfinished, and in the winter I do hear it going on often. But Im guessing once I add subflooring, carpet, frames and R19 insulation, basement will be much warmer, and the heat wont kick on as much.

My FiL mentioned that once this furnace kicks the bucket, I can just add some sort of natural gas passive heating system - a fireplace type unit that sits in the corner.

With that said, do you think I should still replace it?

Well, that's a good point. Most ventless log systems are nearly 100% efficient so that's a possibility. I assume that you can get them with thermostats too. If that's the case, I might not replace the furnace (I wish that was my case but it isn't ).

 

[NoCreativity]

My first thought was I would not put $500 into a 20 year old furnace.

Would the new install come with a new exhaust line and reduce the 18" clearance?

If you don't have the cash or want to spend the cash, I would go with replacing the pipe to reduce the soffit clearance(option C).

Last thing you want is to be unhappy with the wasted space after spending the time and money to finish it.

 

[Aharami]

My first thought was I would not put $500 into a 20 year old furnace.

Would the new install come with a new exhaust line and reduce the 18" clearance?

If you don't have the cash or want to spend the cash, I would go with replacing the pipe to reduce the soffit clearance(option C).

Last thing you want is to be unhappy with the wasted space after spending the time and money to finish it.

options A and B will remove existing pipe along the wall, and run the pipe between the ceiling joists and exit out thru the side of the unit (thru the wall across from the furnace). Those two options will keep the piping in the unfinished area so soffit will be only as big as the air ducts. Option A will replace pipe with double wall so that it can be routed between the floor joists. Option B will use 2" PVC pipe via same location as option A

 

[Modelworks]

What is the height of the finished space ? From what I see I would not spend that kind of money to just heat that small a space. Get a 3 or 4 brick wall mount unit that would more than heat that area.
One like this will more than heat that area and a lot cheaper than the old furnace.
http://www.procomventfree.com/procom_propane_vent_free_heater_thermostat_5_plaque_ml250tpa.html

 

[NoCreativity]

Sounds like option A is your best bet. Might even be worth while to just junk the basement furnce now versus when it dies so you can properly plan for whatever is going to replace it in the future, i.e. what your FIL mentioned or something like modelworks linked to.

 

[ussfletcher]

If the furnace is working then don't get a new one, its really that simple. You could probably do the pipework yourself, it isn't really that difficult.

 

[mmntech]

If the furnace is 20 years old, it's probably a good time to replace it. Those old ones aren't that efficient. The high efficiency ones today are good. My parents replaced their 20 year old furnace a few years ago and their house is noticeably warmer in the winter.

 

[AnonymouseUser]

Scrap the current system and just add a ventless heater like what Modelworks suggested.

 

[Aharami]

What is the height of the finished space ? From what I see I would not spend that kind of money to just heat that small a space. Get a 3 or 4 brick wall mount unit that would more than heat that area.
One like this will more than heat that area and a lot cheaper than the old furnace.
http://www.procomventfree.com/procom_propane_vent_free_heater_thermostat_5_plaque_ml250tpa.html

right now height is 7'3". Once it is finished, height will be around 7'1". Only finished area will be heated (unfinished area will be blocked off with a new wall and will not be heated). Finished area will be around 375 sq ft, so around 2600 cu ft

yea I just started at looking at those ventless fireplaces - http://www.comfort-glow-comfortglow.com/
What are the pros and cons of such a fireplace?

But probably wont put that in until my current furnace kicks the bucket. Then I can probably have the natural gas line go into the fireplace instead of the furnace and keep the furnace unit around for AC purposes.

 

[Murloc]

why can't you heat the basement with the main heater?

anyway it depends on how much you spend on fuel.

 

[Aharami]

why can't you heat the basement with the main heater?

anyway it depends on how much you spend on fuel.

main furnace is in the attic. heating basement with that would require rerouting ductwork and would be way too expensive

 

[amdskip]

What kind of heat do you have for the rest of the house? 1 story or 2 story house? If you have a forced air system in the attic wouldn't it just be better off putting in a whole house system in the basement and be done with it. More cost but more efficient imho.

 

[Aharami]

rest of the house also has natural gas forced air. i agree that furnace in the attic is a very inefficient system, but im not about to redo the entire house's ductwork. It's a 2 story townhouse with a walkout basement. So I guess 3 stories really

 

[PsiStar]

I put in ventless LP gas logs in my firelplace. It had a built in thermostat ... I think they all do. The option might be a "remoted" wall thermostat but not needed in my estimation. Another option is a remote control to turn it on ... I didn't do this either!

With the flu closed, all of the heat stays in the house. I also had a ceiling fan in the same room & added a few others around the house at the same time to help even the heat out. This is with a forced air system, by the way. The ceiling fans seem to make things more comfortable than having the furnace blower on all of the time.

Added bonus is that the combustion by-product of ventless gas is water vapor. Some have warned about the house getting too humid, but I do not see that happening with 1 set of gas logs ... my humidistat has verified.

In a nutshell ... I like it. You will probably be thinking how to fit some vents to the floor above after you start using it.

 

[Aharami]

i havent researched much about ventless systems, but that is good info. Thanks PsiStar.

You will probably be thinking how to fit some vents to the floor above after you start using it.

care to elaborate a bit more on this sentence?

My basement's gonna be a home theater room with a projector setup. The proj screen is gonna be on the rear wall (the one with the walkout door), and the seating will be around 14' from that wall - so around where the stairs end. I'd have to put the ventless fireplace somewhere by the new wall that I will be constructing - so around 10' behind the seating area. Cost-wise, ventless seems like a huge winner. But my only concern with a radiated heating system like that is whether the heat will be able to reach the seating area or not.

 

[Cerebus451]

Another option to consider is a biomass stove (like a wood pellet stove). These also qualify for the 30% tax rebate program, so it might be a viable option. Would certainly be cheaper than a whole new furnace, might be cheaper than a ventless system as well. If your layout lets you put it in the corner where the current flue goes through the foundation, and the existing flue is able to handle the pellet stove, it could be a fairly low cost option (though to be honest I have not priced out a pellet stove, so I don't know how expensive they are).

The bonus of a pellet stove is you can put a pot of water on top if the room dries out in the winter (might not be a problem for the basement, but you don't want your home theater to be too dry).

 

[PsiStar]

You will probably be thinking how to fit some vents to the floor above after you start using it.

I was just thinking about an easy way to get heat moved around/up to cooler rooms on the 1st floor.

Also, home theater suggest insulation in the new ceiling for sound reductioin. Then you wouldn't benefit from warm cozy 1st floor in the cold months.

This is just 1 tangent on to another^_^ ... probably only need that insulation under any 1st floor bedrooms (for sound reduction), but not under the kitchen floor which is probably where the warm floor would be most appreciated anyway.

 

[DrPizza]

Find a smaller contractor looking for work. A gas forced air furnace with sufficient BTUs to heat an area that size costs WELL under $1000. Installation is just a few hours of work.