Humility and the Fallacy Fallacy

[jackstar7]

Inspired by: http://youarenotsosmart.libsyn.com/067-the-fallacy-fallacy

Are you just participating to spot fallacies and call out people? Or do you want to reach understanding and embrace new ideas and knowledge?

I'm sure I've been guilty of this, but not surprisingly, I've seen it more in others.

Is there a path to having a constructive and useful conversation on the internet? Or have we reduced ourselves to just feeling like we need to "win" (a particularly empty pursuit on the internet).

Will this just be part of the evolution of internet conversation?

From where we've started, I do wonder where we're going.

 

[Vdubchaos]

If you read any Internet forum it's essentially people making themselves out to be experts and heroes (even if they don't mean to).

Welcome to reality.

Biggest problem with online/not in person communication, anyone can interpret ANYTHING, ANYWAY they would like.

 

[jackstar7]

My issue is with the general acceptance of such behavior.

 

[Caravaggio]

Are you just participating to spot fallacies and call out people? Or do you want to reach understanding and embrace new ideas and knowledge?

Those aims are not mutually exclusive (IMHO, of course). Any serious debate will highlight errors of fact or interpretation in the other participant's argument.

If a poster believes the earth is flat, "embracing" that person's 'ideas' would be patronising, as any attempt to reach a synthesis would be faked, just for an easy life. The final apparent 'agreement' would be a lazy sham as there is no useful point between truth and falsehood. As that great orator Christopher Hitchens pointed out: "That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

P&N is usually a shouting match with 'yah booing' setting in early. It can be very entertaining but could rarely be called a 'debate'.

D&C allows for a genuine exchange of views, at a more considered pace. Embracing the views of others is more likely to be found here.

Horses for courses.

 

[jackstar7]

I understand that pointing out fallacious issues can be important, but I definitely spot people doing so just to get Chris Hardwick-style POINTS! and not to further a discussion. They don't have counter-arguments, they simply want to pick apart those who try to put forth a position. It doesn't foster discussion and it usually comes off as pedantic.

I suppose it's not truly avoidable at this stage of anonymous discourse. Though it's sad when you see it via fb discussions where people aren't anonymous at all... and still indulge in the nonsense.

I suppose it's just a bummer and I hoped that highlighting it might provoke a couple people to consider their behavior. I'm sure they won't actually read this thread though, so just the usual tilting at windmills.

Thanks, gents.

 

[dank69]

I do this all the time but I'm not trying to score points. I'm doing it because the fallacies need to stop. There can be hardly any real discussion until this garbage is stopped. So much of P&N is fallacy that attempting to discuss any topic is an exercise in futility.

 

[sandorski]

I do this all the time but I'm not trying to score points. I'm doing it because the fallacies need to stop. There can be hardly any real discussion until this garbage is stopped. So much of P&N is fallacy that attempting to discuss any topic is an exercise in futility.

Yup. Sometimes I point at Fallacies with a counter argument, sometimes I don't. When I don't it's usually because the person I'm arguing with has repeatedly used the same Fallacy over and over from discussion to discussion. At some point it isn't worth the effort to argue against someone who relies on Fallacies as their own arguments.

 

[Moonbeam]

Inspired by: http://youarenotsosmart.libsyn.com/067-the-fallacy-fallacy

Are you just participating to spot fallacies and call out people? Or do you want to reach understanding and embrace new ideas and knowledge?

I'm sure I've been guilty of this, but not surprisingly, I've seen it more in others.

Is there a path to having a constructive and useful conversation on the internet? Or have we reduced ourselves to just feeling like we need to "win" (a particularly empty pursuit on the internet).

Will this just be part of the evolution of internet conversation?

From where we've started, I do wonder where we're going.

I think we can start with a question. What makes people like this. Do they have emotional needs. I think they do. I see a desire to manifest a flattering ego to cover up self loathing. I see no hope for a cure until this self loathing is more universally recognized. It's also, I believe, the last thing that anybody wants to face. Imagine a world full of self hating robots that believe the other robot is where that hate comes from.

 

[Bart*Simpson]

If you read any Internet forum it's essentially people making themselves out to be experts and heroes (even if they don't mean to).

Welcome to reality.

Biggest problem with online/not in person communication, anyone can interpret ANYTHING, ANYWAY they would like.

So you're saying that in the Lincoln-Douglas debates that the two of them should have spent more time discussing international trade?

If so, you're obviously a global warming denier!

[/s] 😀

 

[Mike64]

P&N is usually ... very entertaining

You mean that's not it's actual, intended purpose?😱 Who knew?! I've always thought of it as a sort of virtual 10-car pileup... Plenty of rubbernecking opportunities, no paying for gas or wear & tear, and of course snacks, readily available to hand.:whiste: And of course no actual humans are harmed in the making thereof...😀

 

[Caravaggio]

On the topic of the differences between P&N and DC...

Of P&N you say ( re: it being 'entertaining')

You mean that's not it's actual, intended purpose?😱 Who knew?! I've always thought of it as a sort of virtual 10-car pileup... Plenty of rubbernecking opportunities, no paying for gas or wear & tear, and of course snacks, readily available to hand.:whiste: And of course no actual humans are harmed in the making thereof...😀

I agree, most of the P&N users are old-school bare knuckle fighters and they slog it out with each other as a non-aerobic substitute for a morning run.

We are all consenting adults but it can be a shock for some new arrivals to P&N who realise that they will be completely ignored UNLESS they say something grossly offensive. There is an exchange of blows as the ' newby' is greeted in his cell by the old lags, then the status quo ante is restored.

But the sloggers are often punch drunk and there are too many complete non-sequiturs for that realm to be satisfying, in the longer term.

This forum can get snarly at times but at its worst it is like watching old dogs grumble over a sun-bleached bone. There is nothing to be gained from 'victory'.
The fur rarely flies and old wounds are licked clean. But there is a chance of serious debate, and that makes this board worthwhile.