Human Rights Watch reports on the Israeli attacks in Lebanon

[Lemon law]

Actually---these posts are quite pointless---except to open the eyes of some on the Israelie side that this time Israel has gone to far in engaging in pointless collective punishment.
In terms of who started this--whose to blame---its a simple two wrongs don't make a right ---and this is just the latest---and hopefully the last large scale round of tit for tat violence.

But the real reason these threads are pointless regards the consequences and the actions will be decided by the larger world community--and will not be decided on these forums.

But I do predict that Israel will have to pay a large part of the cost of rebuilding Lebanon---and that never again will Israel be allowed to engage in collective punishment administered in the wreckless ways that it has. With luck real movement towards a Palistinian State will gain a renewal---and the endless cycle of racheting up hatreds can be reversed. But in return the world community must police the terrorists.

 

[laserburn]

Israel is the only country in the world that still uses plain old RETALIATION and is able to get away with it.

Whenever some Palestinian wraps himself in explosive and kills some Jews, Israel reacts by launching a missile into Palestinian populated area, claiming it is targeting some terrorist leader, but in reality it?s just killing Palestinian civilians as a payback for their own who died. For every Jew that gets killed they always kill 10 Palestinians in return. Statistics clearly show that, year after year.

One would think that suffering of Jews throughout the history would make them more empathic to suffering of others, but it?s clearly not the case.

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Peace is not a process. Peace is a state of being. It is impossible to jump directly from a state of war into a state of peace without winning the war. The state of peace does not happen because one of the warring parties sees it in its dreams and simply stops fighting. It happens only when the enemy is defeated. It happens only when the enemy has no other choice but to accept its defeat and sign the peace treaty on the conditions dictated by the victories party.

True, peace also happens when both sides genuinely want it. The key words in this statement are "both" and "genuinely." Hezbollah actions unequivocally show that these two words are absolutely not applicable here, leaving Israel only with one viable option--to fight this war using all available resources. Then, when the victory is achieved, the peace process will begin.

Do not be stupid. These people are your neighbors, you will have to live with them in the future, too. There is NO WINNER in such wars. For every enemy you kill, you create several more, because many moderate Muslims become militant when they see what you are doing to their brothers in faith. Do you really think that you can make people peaceful with violence?
The only way to truly solve problems between Jews and their Muslim neighbors is TOLERANCE, together with humanity and reasoning. I know it sounds impossible, but that IS the only way to go. I live in Serbia, we had over a decade of war and I know what I?m talking about. You can not use force and hope to live in peace, spilled blood always calls for more blood. At some point, you must stop using violence. Do you really want to leave war as a legacy to your children?

 

[linkgoron]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Not only do I condemn the Israelis as a muslims but I also condemn them as a human being.

Do you condemn Hezbollah as a Muslim and as a Human Being?

For abducting the 2 soldiers illegally? I condemn it but none more than the Israeli abuduction of the Palestenian speaker of parliment some time ago.

Israeli forces detained 64 elected representatives of Hamas, including ministers, MPs, mayors and other municipal officials in an unprecedented sweep on June 29.

How about the indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli citizens?

They are no better than Israeli warplanes killing civilians. Both sides deny they are targetting civilans. However it must be noted that the ratio of civilians : soldiers killed is much higher on the Lebaneese side of the border.

No. Hezbullah said that they're targeting civilians, and 40KG of iron balls in each rocket proves that. The ratio is higher on the Lebanese side becuase of two reasons:
1: Hezbullah is obviously lying about their deaths. I think 400 is about right, maybe a little less, if you think that they've lost 30 fighters in 26 days...
2: There are basically only soldiers in the streets in Israel. You really think that Hezbullah is aiming at bases? Around 2,000 rockets have been fired at Israel, obviously when there are no civilians in the open, the only ones that get hit are soldiers.

I beleive its wrong for Israel to say on the one hand that its a war and civilians die and then condemn civilian deaths on their side on the other. They invaded Lebanon in a show of aggression by using disproportionate force.

They should've waited for more Katyusha rockets? You can't let a country let a terrorist group control their southern border, and then say that it's not your fault that they're shooting at other countries from there. All this nonsense about disproportionate force is BS. They're using much less force than they can. They were dragged into this war unwillingly.

If they target civilian lives its wrong, but if they target military or industrial strutures or infrastructures and civilians get caught up, thats the nature of war. Same on both sides and according to Islam as well. Perhaps the US should arm Hezbollah with precision weapons as well.

Do you really believe that Israel targets civilians? Really?
I agree that there have been accidents that shouldn't have happend. But please, don't say that Israel does that on purpose. Hezbullah is shooting rockets from urban areas on purpose, to get Israel to miss them and kill civilians.

Israel is in a lose-lose situation no matter what they do. If they would've complied to Hezbullah's demands (like they did in the past) it would only incourage more abductions (This war is proof of that). If they attack, then people say OMG you killed civilians. Please, what could they've done? In the past Israel complied with terrorist orginazations demands, and look! Here we are, another abducation. So they attack, and show any terrorist orginazation what will happen if they make an unprovoked attack against Israel. While I believe that may've used too much force in some areas, I believe that it was also inevitable, and Hezbullah and Lebanon got what they deserved. You CAN NOT let some orginazation control a 1/3rd of your country and let them do what they want.

I pity the Lebanese people, I feel that it's very sad that they've been caught in the cross-fire between Iran-Syria and Israel. Do you really think that Hezbullah cares for the Lebanese? I think that the Lebanese people are unlucky because they're being used by other Muslim countries because they've got a weak government, and basically because other Muslim countries don't really care for the Lebanese people, and just need some diversion so that they can keep control in their own countries. Hate against the other is the easiest weapon. That's why saying that Israel is the evil one is wrong and unjust. Israel has to have safe borders, and it's sad that it's at the cost of Lebanese lives and that Hezbullah is working under Iran's leaders orders, but what can Israel do? Send flowers to the Lebanese? The past has shown that exchanges from Israel only cause more abductions in the future.
The people of Lebanon should rise against Hezbullah. That (imo) is the real solution. Not an international force. Not anything. The Lebanese have gained nothing from this conflict. Nothing at all. Hezbullah had no reason to fight. Israel left Lebanon COMPLETLY. I hope that people of Lebanon understand that and work after this conflict is over, to destroy Hezbullah. Please if your answer to this is saying "Israel should get disarmed" or anything like that, I'm asking you (whoever want's to reply) to not reply, because I will never be able to convince you, and you won't be able to convince me.
I just don't understand how you can say that Israel is evil because they're using precision missles and they miss... 1 out of every 10 or 20 or I don't know, missles miss. It's sad, but Israel did not start this conflict. Those are the missles that you hear about. The other 90% or 95%? You don't hear about, because those actually hit their targets.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: laserburn
Israel is the only country in the world that still uses plain old RETALIATION and is able to get away with it.

Whenever some Palestinian wraps himself in explosive and kills some Jews, Israel reacts by launching a missile into Palestinian populated area, claiming it is targeting some terrorist leader, but in reality it?s just killing Palestinian civilians as a payback for their own who died. For every Jew that gets killed they always kill 10 Palestinians in return. Statistics clearly show that, year after year.

One would think that suffering of Jews throughout the history would make them more empathic to suffering of others, but it?s clearly not the case.

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Peace is not a process. Peace is a state of being. It is impossible to jump directly from a state of war into a state of peace without winning the war. The state of peace does not happen because one of the warring parties sees it in its dreams and simply stops fighting. It happens only when the enemy is defeated. It happens only when the enemy has no other choice but to accept its defeat and sign the peace treaty on the conditions dictated by the victories party.

True, peace also happens when both sides genuinely want it. The key words in this statement are "both" and "genuinely." Hezbollah actions unequivocally show that these two words are absolutely not applicable here, leaving Israel only with one viable option--to fight this war using all available resources. Then, when the victory is achieved, the peace process will begin.

Do not be stupid. These people are your neighbors, you will have to live with them in the future, too. There is NO WINNER in such wars. For every enemy you kill, you create several more, because many moderate Muslims become militant when they see what you are doing to their brothers in faith. Do you really think that you can make people peaceful with violence?
The only way to truly solve problems between Jews and their Muslim neighbors is TOLERANCE, together with humanity and reasoning. I know it sounds impossible, but that IS the only way to go. I live in Serbia, we had over a decade of war and I know what I?m talking about. You can not use force and hope to live in peace, spilled blood always calls for more blood. At some point, you must stop using violence. Do you really want to leave war as a legacy to your children?

Actually your decade of war really cannot be compared to what has happenned and is happenning now in the middle east over the last 40 or so years. Albeit you do have unique perspective. The circumstances are totally different.
To have tolerance both parties must agree. When one party will never agree there can never be tolerance. Then both of you must care about humanity enough for reasoning to prevail.
The people supporting Hezbollah have made it plain they will never live in peace with israel.

 

[laserburn]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf

Actually your decade of war really cannot be compared to what has happenned and is happenning now in the middle east over the last 40 or so years. Albeit you do have unique perspective. The circumstances are totally different.
To have tolerance both parties must agree. When one party will never agree there can never be tolerance. Then both of you must care about humanity enough for reasoning to prevail.
The people supporting Hezbollah have made it plain they will never live in peace with israel.

Actually, it is very comparable. Ethnic and religious conflicts in my region are centuries old.

You must realize some things:
1. Hezbollah doesn?t give a damn about innocent Arabs getting killed. The more of Palestinians killed by Jews, the more support they will get. Therefore, all your military actions only make them stronger, they do not hurt them.
2. You?ve been fighting Palestinians since Biblical times and it gave no result, they always come back for more. By now, it must be clear even to an idiot that violence will not yield lasting peace in the Middle East. Something else must be tried.

TOLERANCE! I know Hezbollah will never stop their attacks, but Israel must not respond to them in the same manner, it should only organize peace walks, peace concerts, etc. There must be only messages of love and peace in the mass media, not threats by Israeli officials. Even if only one side is truly dedicated to these efforts, message will in the long run reach the minds of people on the other side. Eventually, Arabs will not see Hezbollah as freedom fighters, but as people who have no respect for human lives.
I know this probably sounds crazy to you, but it worked so well in Spain. Spanish government did not respond violently to ETA?s attacks, and finally ETA lost all support among Basks and practically disappeared.

 

[Lemon law]

To IrateLeaf,

I still point out Israel had the option---at its founding---to be a government in which Israelie jews and native Palistinians had equal standing under the law---and instead opted to make
the native Palistinians second class citizens and to steal their land----a similar thing was done at the founding of the United States---where African slaves were similarly disenfranchised
as our founding fathers proved craven--------87 years later that unaddressed wrong nearly tore our country apart as a bloody civil war was fought.

Israel is the intransagent party here----and must address the right to return-----or they will have no peace. That is and remains the sticking point here----the right to return---there will
be no possible agreement until that issue is addressed by Israel------------all we get from the Israelie side is the denial you are in about this---and the pretence that military streagth allows you to say to any who ask for fundemental fairness------" you and whose army is going to make us do it. "

And even in dealing with the land captured by Israel since 1967---of which 100% is illegitimate by UN charter---Israel offers to give some back and then is shocked when that is not regarded as a generous settlement---but when you steal something you must give 100% back before negotiations even begin.------and then Israel can start to address the right to return.

Right now all we have is you and whose army is going to make us do something--------as the Israelie army gets stretched thinner and thinner---first you are going to have to occupy Lebanon again---after that whose next----????????? Better get a really big buffer zone-----as your neighbors get madder and madder. And the world starts to side with the other side.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: laserburn

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf

Actually your decade of war really cannot be compared to what has happenned and is happenning now in the middle east over the last 40 or so years. Albeit you do have unique perspective. The circumstances are totally different.
To have tolerance both parties must agree. When one party will never agree there can never be tolerance. Then both of you must care about humanity enough for reasoning to prevail.
The people supporting Hezbollah have made it plain they will never live in peace with israel.

Actually, it is very comparable. Ethnic and religious conflicts in my region are centuries old.

You must realize some things:
1. Hezbollah doesn?t give a damn about innocent Arabs getting killed. The more of Palestinians killed by Jews, the more support they will get. Therefore, all your military actions only make them stronger, they do not hurt them.
2. You?ve been fighting Palestinians since Biblical times and it gave no result, they always come back for more. By now, it must be clear even to an idiot that violence will not yield lasting peace in the Middle East. Something else must be tried.

TOLERANCE! I know Hezbollah will never stop their attacks, but Israel must not respond to them in the same manner, it should only organize peace walks, peace concerts, etc. There must be only messages of love and peace in the mass media, not threats by Israeli officials. Even if only one side is truly dedicated to these efforts, message will in the long run reach the minds of people on the other side. Eventually, Arabs will not see Hezbollah as freedom fighters, but as people who have no respect for human lives.
I know this probably sounds crazy to you, but it worked so well in Spain. Spanish government did not respond violently to ETA?s attacks, and finally ETA lost all support among Basks and practically disappeared.

Not to demean you but - do you realize you do not just lay down your weapons when the whole arab world wants you to be destroyed totally and have called for your total destruction?
Again in theorie true. But the circumstances dictate different measures.
How long do you truly believe that israel would last if they were to lay down all there weapons and respond with love?TOLERANCE! I know Hezbollah will never stop their attacks, but Israel must not respond to them in the same manner, it should only organize peace walks, peace concerts, etc. There must be only messages of love and peace in the mass media, not threats by Israeli officials. Even if only one side is truly dedicated to these efforts, message will in the long run reach the minds of people on the other side. Eventually, Arabs will not see Hezbollah as freedom fighters, but as people who have no respect for human lives.

It has been proven time again that if you leave israel alone they will leave you alone. I do not understand whats so fiddicult about that concept. Well actually I do understand the arab viewpoint. No peace is possible without the total destruction of the nation of Israel.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Gamer X

How about the indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli citizens?

Hassan Nasrallah called the Israelis to stop bombing civilian areas in return for Hizbullah stopping the rockets and keep the fighting restraind to south Lebanon. Israel did not respond.

So the answers no. You are one of those assholes who could care less about innocent deaths, you only use their deaths to pusue your hatred of Israel. I bet you're the type that hopes for more Lebanese civilians deaths because it makes Israel look bad.

QFT

From what I gather from the other side of P&N, we are to surrender now when war is waged against us. It is unacceptable and no amount of arguing for Hezbollah on these forums will change my mind on the requirement of the destroying or surrendering of Hezbollah before there can be peace.

If Nasrallah wants peace, he knows where to find a white flag.

When will you ever learn? It is pointless to destroy Hizb Allah. There will only be another even stronger restistance movement in its place.

The core of Hizb Allah is 500 to 600 fighters - all told the organization has about 5000 to 6000 fighters. Against this resistance movement Israel has sent in the best they have - the very elite of the world, the Golani brigade etc. - and got defeated. Now Israel is sending in several divisions on the ground. In the meantime the Israeli Air Force has pounded Lebanon to the stone age and destroyed the life of a million or more Lebanese. The Lebanese are angry. Most of Hizb Allah's fighters today were children when Israel invaded in 1982. I wonder what future horrors the current Israeli bombing campaign is creating.

Enough is enough. This bombing campaign has opened the eyes for a lot of former friends of Israel. Israel has lost this war.

QFT

Killng never bought peace.

Huh? World effing War II saw killing on a grander scale than this and brought peace to Europe for 60+ years now.

This idea that talking will bring a peace is a farce as evidenced by talking in that region for 30 years which has ammounted to a constant barrage of bombings and attacks from both sides.

You think if you talked to Hizbollah enough they may stop attacking Israel?

 

[laserburn]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf

Not to demean you but - do you realize you do not just lay down your weapons when the whole arab world wants you to be destroyed totally and have called for your total destruction?
Again in theorie true. But the circumstances dictate different measures.
How long do you truly believe that israel would last if they were to lay down all there weapons and respond with love?TOLERANCE! I know Hezbollah will never stop their attacks, but Israel must not respond to them in the same manner, it should only organize peace walks, peace concerts, etc. There must be only messages of love and peace in the mass media, not threats by Israeli officials. Even if only one side is truly dedicated to these efforts, message will in the long run reach the minds of people on the other side. Eventually, Arabs will not see Hezbollah as freedom fighters, but as people who have no respect for human lives.

It has been proven time again that if you leave israel alone they will leave you alone. I do not understand whats so fiddicult about that concept. Well actually I do understand the arab viewpoint. No peace is possible without the total destruction of the nation of Israel.

Now, where exactly have you seen me asking you to lay down your arms? All I?m saying is you shouldn?t use them unless absolutely necessary. It?s better to let at least some of the terrorist attacks go without armed response than use old methods of retaliation that proved to be completely ineffective so far. You must prove to the common Arab that you have changed your ways. Most Arabs are not religious fanatics that strap themselves with explosives; they are normal folks and you can appeal to their basic sense of humanity. Most will never be persuaded, but with careful propaganda you should be able to sway some of the younger people towards the way of peace. It will be a very, VERY slow process. Kind of like fighting racial prejudice in the southern states of USA ? it?s still very strong, but it slowly gets weaker and weaker with every new generation.

But, before anything else, you must make peace with Palestinians that live in your own country. First you must find a compromise with them, but more is needed. You must help them rebuild their economy; help them to start leading normal lives, better than Arabs in surrounding countries have. I very much doubt that any man with good future prospects would blow himself up, even for Allah or some other deity. Only desperate do things like that and right now there is a lot of desperate people in Palestine, thanks to Israel?s current policies.

You could say: ?WTF, we?re stronger than them, we?ll force them into submission?. But if we use the same brutality as they do, than WHAT MAKES US THE GOOD GUYS? I often wandered about this during the war in my country.
Both sides have their reasons. Sometimes you just need to listen more.

 

[Lemon law]

When you have a war brought on by nations---or groups of nations---such a war is usually brutal---and can only end with the reality of the capture of the losing nations capital city
or the realization that the same is now ineveitable---so a semi unconditional surrender is arranged. This has been typical of many great national wars---ww1 and ww2 are classic
examples.-----but the real rationale behind a modern war is to destroy the economy of the opponent and with it its ability to keep its war machine supplied---which in turn places civilians on the front lines. And a modern armies ability to kill people and break things is truly the measure of a modern army---and Israel based on a per man basis probably has the effective
modern army in world history.

But the point missed here is that such all out wars are always brief---usually no more than five years or so---and again ww1 and ww2 are classic examples----ww1 was ended with the military defeat of the axis powers---but concluded with an unjust peace that failed to address fundemental issues---that 20 years later lead to ww2.

WW2 lead to even a more crushing defeat of Germany---and the first war loss the Japanese ever suffered---but was concluded with a more than just peace for the defeated parties.
And now the defeated parties are now friends and allies with thriving economies.

Contrast that history with the monkey business now going on with Israel---which still denies the reality that they mist address the right to return---the conflict is now 58 years old and is getting more bitter every day----its being driven by Israels unwillingness to address fundemental unfairness and terrorist who will settle for nothing less than some fundemental fairnesss.----but for years Israel has been terrorizing its Palisinian population in bondage with total inpunuty---collectively punishing the lot for the actions of a few---and that only results in more terrorist acts.

Now for the first time foreign terrorists are targeting Israelie civilians---and Israel screams like stuck pigs when its not even a miniscule fraction yet compared to what they have been doing to the Palistinians for the last 58 years with total impunity.------and now has 25% of the civilian population of Lebanon trying to flee.---but for the first time the American public is getting a fairly unbaised look at what is really going on---instead of the sanatised propaganda the Israelie Lobby has been feeding us about noble do no wrong Israel---and in future you now seeing in these threads a look at the future---namely a United States who will not be a pro-Israelie stooge---but instead be truly neutral.--which is what the arab states have been asking for for years-----making this perhaps the point in which a move towards sanity becomes posssible.----------they can now continue a strategy that is no longer wise, possible or prudent.---or finally confront the issues that drive this conflict---which is the right to return.-------only the latter course can lead to the long term survival of a much smaller greater Israel.

But Earth to IrateLeaf---Earth to Samur---you are hearing the new voice of America here on these threads---and the America public will no longer buy your propaganda---as for GWB & co.--your strongest supporter---their days are numbered also---and will be lucky to finish their terms---as their ideas are repudiated by their own failures.---and if Iraq goes they will go shortly thereafter---by resignation or impeachment---if some other scandal does not expose them first.--but the results will be the same.

 

[linkgoron]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
When you have a war brought on by nations---or groups of nations---such a war is usually brutal---and can only end with the reality of the capture of the losing nations capital city
or the realization that the same is now ineveitable---so a semi unconditional surrender is arranged. This has been typical of many great national wars---ww1 and ww2 are classic
examples.-----but the real rationale behind a modern war is to destroy the economy of the opponent and with it its ability to keep its war machine supplied---which in turn places civilians on the front lines. And a modern armies ability to kill people and break things is truly the measure of a modern army---and Israel based on a per man basis probably has the effective
modern army in world history.

But the point missed here is that such all out wars are always brief---usually no more than five years or so---and again ww1 and ww2 are classic examples----ww1 was ended with the military defeat of the axis powers---but concluded with an unjust peace that failed to address fundemental issues---that 20 years later lead to ww2.

WW2 lead to even a more crushing defeat of Germany---and the first war loss the Japanese ever suffered---but was concluded with a more than just peace for the defeated parties.
And now the defeated parties are now friends and allies with thriving economies.

Contrast that history with the monkey business now going on with Israel---which still denies the reality that they mist address the right to return---the conflict is now 58 years old and is getting more bitter every day----its being driven by Israels unwillingness to address fundemental unfairness and terrorist who will settle for nothing less than some fundemental fairnesss.----but for years Israel has been terrorizing its Palisinian population in bondage with total inpunuty---collectively punishing the lot for the actions of a few---and that only results in more terrorist acts.

Now for the first time foreign terrorists are targeting Israelie civilians---and Israel screams like stuck pigs when its not even a miniscule fraction yet compared to what they have been doing to the Palistinians for the last 58 years with total impunity.------and now has 25% of the civilian population of Lebanon trying to flee.---but for the first time the American public is getting a fairly unbaised look at what is really going on---instead of the sanatised propaganda the Israelie Lobby has been feeding us about noble do no wrong Israel---and in future you now seeing in these threads a look at the future---namely a United States who will not be a pro-Israelie stooge---but instead be truly neutral.--which is what the arab states have been asking for for years-----making this perhaps the point in which a move towards sanity becomes posssible.----------they can now continue a strategy that is no longer wise, possible or prudent.---or finally confront the issues that drive this conflict---which is the right to return.-------only the latter course can lead to the long term survival of a much smaller greater Israel.

But Earth to IrateLeaf---Earth to Samur---you are hearing the new voice of America here on these threads---and the America public will no longer buy your propaganda---as for GWB & co.--your strongest supporter---their days are numbered also---and will be lucky to finish their terms---as their ideas are repudiated by their own failures.---and if Iraq goes they will go shortly thereafter---by resignation or impeachment---if some other scandal does not expose them first.--but the results will be the same.

You can forget about the "right to return". You can just ask Israelis to pack their bags and leave. The Palestinians have no such "right".
It'll never happen. Never, ever. Israeli public will never allow such a move, and a government that'll even think about allowing such a right will get kicked out of the Kneset the same day.

 

[ccbadd]

Killng never bought peace.

What version of history have you read? What stopped Hitler, Musolini, ect?

The reality is this is all just about the insanely religious, on both side.

On a more historic note, who atacked who first? Start with King Solomon and go from there. Everyone seems to look back to WWII and stop there. The Isrealis had two countries, Isreal and Juda. They have been attacked and the HOLY land has changed hands many times. The difference is the Isreali's believed the horrible things that happened to them were a result of there own lack of faith, Juda did not. Then came the Christians, and the first spit happended. This spit, offshoot, was not a source of war between the Christian and Isrealites. Then came the Muslims. They killed anyone who refused to convert to Islam. Then, in a striking turn, the Muslims split over who should take Mohamed's place spirred by the murder of the first successor to Mohammed. The Shiites and Sunis were born, out of what is the worst of human intentions, GREED. Both the Christians and Muslims took a religion, Judism, and expaned on it and made "revisions". All three have common beliefs, but the last two made changes for there own purposes. The real problem is both wanted the benifits on Judism but Judism includes only Jews. The real differences is that Islam is bent on using force and fear to promote there version, the Christians just want to be left alone.

This might not be absolutely historically accurate, but it is what I understand. I think everyone here should be willing to read history and try to come to there own understanding and talk about it.

As far as my feelings on the current problems between Isreal an Lebanon, how can the Lebanease people blame Isreal when they are the ones that allow an insane religious group to operate inside there borders. The population of a country, the CIVILIANS, have a RESPONSABILITY to police there borders. Lebanon is a democracy and the acions of there country are the actions of the terrorist that reside in it. Every country has criminals, but the good countries of the world deal with there criminals. If they allow criminals without repercussions , they are complicit and thus are also criminals.

I am not Jewish, but I do believe they have every right to do what they are doing.

 

[Lemon law]

On a historical note start long before King Solomon----lots of sordid wrongs have happened since. But we are dealing with the present---and addressing the right to return does not mean the end of the State of Israel---not all the land was stolen---only some of it.---and that can still be addressed.

But in terms of a such a rational political movement not lasting a second in Israelie politics---and any such party would be voted out of office.

That is no longer the issue---as the world community may impose that from without----strong as Israel is---the rest of the combined world may put it as a take it or leave it.
With the leave part meaning all jews leave Israel totally---don't let the door slam on your butt. Which is usually the worlds reaction to a bully and a tyrant like Hitler---does Israel care to share his fate?---as as you so eleoquently put it---it was the world community that stopped Hitler and Mosolini---and Tojo too while it was at it.

And by the way I do have a substantial amount of jewish blood in me---but I don't regard this as a religious issue---I believe what I say based on fundemental fairness---Israel has treated the Palistinians unfairly and there will be no peace until that issue is rectified---and its tee total bullshit to allow the collective punishment of all the Lebanese people due to the actions of a comparatively few terrorists.-----------the limits of Israelie power have been reached and exceeded---now a price must be paid---volentarily or by compulsion.

Israel is now a menace to world peace and can only cause more terrorism---but maybe you said it best when you talked about criminality with reprecussions---because the land Israel stole from innocent Palistinians is yet to be addressed----by that measure you must agree the entire State of Israel is now complicit---and then are also all criminals. But I know your collective guilt argument isn't true anyway---but I now believe its long past time for the collective world to believe the Israelies or the Palistinians will negotiate in good faith---so its binding arbitration time---with less emotionally involved people imposing a more just settlement.

 

[ccbadd]

Lemon Law, I do understand your possition, but I don't agree. The Palestinian people under Arafat had absolutely no desire to resolve the issue short of the destruction of Isreal. They, and/or supporters, even had an ally in Egypt's ruler asasinated. As far as "we are dealing in the present", this is not true of these religious groups. It all goes back to the scriptures they believe in, not the now and present.

 

[Aisengard]

I'm pretty sure Arafat himself agreed to the accords constructed by Clinton and everyone else, but his hands were tied by the people behind him. Any compromise with Israel would have probably been met by violent uprisings, and he just couldn't risk it.

 

[ccbadd]

Why did he take so much money that was for his people and make his wife rich then?

 

[kermalou]

I am saddened to see the reaction of some of you. Please do not always believe what you red in the press.

When you have one side that has a mission statement of destroying the other side, how do you expect there to be peace?

 

[Aisengard]

Because he was a corrupt politician. I didn't say he was the ultimate humanitarian, just that I don't think he wanted everlasting war and its consequences. Remember the sieges the Israeli army put on his house?

 

[Lemon law]

In terms of Arafat, even he was willing to accept the right for Israel to exist----but when Israel refused to deal with the right to return---no agreement was possible. While Israel wants to engage in the revisionist history that it was all Arafat greed---it is and remains---the right to return that is the issue that must be confronted.---and no just deal is possible until it is.

But like all the past characters in the present drama---they like Arafat proved corrupt and morally bankrupt---now the Fatah party is out---and Hamas is the democratically elected government--------hey Bush believes in democracy doesn't he?--------and would never support dictators far worse than Saddam Hussien like he does.

Ya just can't decode all the lies until you have the Cap'n Marvel magic truth detector ring.--------------but maybe we still have to go back to 1948---and decide if Israel acted fairly when it disenfranchised the existing Palistinian population instead of having a mixed state with equal rights?---so everyone has to examine their fundemental values of fairness.

All else is just the current progression of a chess game that will lead to a win, and draw, or a loss for any one given side. And this conflict is still young. Unlike the chess games I play, neither side is anything but offence and no defense, meaning a knockout blow is the goal of either side.

But currently the a third party has entered the game---and terrorists are now driving the agenda and winning----and that should worry us all.