Nemesis 1
Lifer
- Dec 30, 2006
- 11,366
- 2
- 0
Well I am ashamed to admit it I voted for Bush . Befor Bush I voted Clinton . I have voted since 1972. I have voted evertime for the winner. Dam.
So I came up with an Idea. I am not going to vote anymore. Maybe noone will win and the As-s wipes will go away. No more voting for me I have lost the faith man. I know longer believe in America as a free nation. Rep / Dem they all suck. I think I could right Arnold in . Ya I know he wasn't born here. But he is more American than any that are running. Reality is not voting on the federal level anymore for me state and local only.
Anybody no of any organizations one can join to fight against the federal government.
You are kidding right? I know you have trouble with understanding things, but this shouldn't be that difficult of a concept. You see, the government has land, that *we* can use. If I want to go boating, I just find the nearest lake and dock that is ran by the US Park Service, and I put a boat in the water! Or if I want to go hunting, head out onto state land! There are millions of people who do this every year, I'm pretty sure they'd like it.
So, how many states would be able to fund an agency comparable to the FDA, versus states that would essentially have to go for a large company to setup the agency.
I don't go to the big Paul forums like Stormfront to get the simple talking points you guys could get, so I have to make do with this.
Yeah ok, Ron Paul supporters get their ideas from stormfront? Any proof or just being an idiot? Do you derive your talking points from places like the weekly standard? :laugh:
I'll bite.
Eliminate these agencies entirely:
1. DEA
2. ATF
3. Several relic agencies that serve little purpose since the great depression.
Merge:
1. Homeland security, CIA, NSA--Or just get rid of DHS
2. Cut military spending drastically. Department of defense should be just that, defense. We don't need all these carrier groups or overseas bases, they are not helping keep America safe they are just projecting power.
3. Social security isn't that bad stop whining about it.
4. Streamline medicare/medicade by making a single payer cost-effective system.
5. Pass law that says a bill's text must relate to its main purpose. No more hiding pork.
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
- Jun 26, 2007
- 11,925
- 2
- 0
Any SANE democrat (this is not the US for or democrat i am using, it's the universal form, as in "for democracy") would tell you that a tax on sales will lead to lowered consumption and higher rates.
It's as stupid as it sounds.
Income taxes work becauce you NEED your income, consumption taxes do not work because you can choose what to consume and guess what, it's what you consume that pays what you earn in the long run, who the hell gets the money for your pay check, it's the people who earn money from your consumption.
It's daft because the tax proposed is a LOT higher than the tax paid on your income, now this does mean that if you save (like if you are among the 2% on the top) you get to skip taxes.
It's another way to skip all taxation for the richest of the richest. nothing else.
So who's going to pay for the police, the fire departments, the healtcare, do you think it's a coincidence that in Britain it doesn't matter where you live the Police have a minimum response time that is about the same no matter where you live and in the us, it's a difference between 15 minutes for the rich and never for the poor areas for the same crime?
Income taxes are not just for the fun of taxation and it does not drive anyone out of anywhere, it's a good way to see to it that everyone provides according to their means and that is all it is.
It's as stupid as it sounds.
Income taxes work becauce you NEED your income, consumption taxes do not work because you can choose what to consume and guess what, it's what you consume that pays what you earn in the long run, who the hell gets the money for your pay check, it's the people who earn money from your consumption.
It's daft because the tax proposed is a LOT higher than the tax paid on your income, now this does mean that if you save (like if you are among the 2% on the top) you get to skip taxes.
It's another way to skip all taxation for the richest of the richest. nothing else.
So who's going to pay for the police, the fire departments, the healtcare, do you think it's a coincidence that in Britain it doesn't matter where you live the Police have a minimum response time that is about the same no matter where you live and in the us, it's a difference between 15 minutes for the rich and never for the poor areas for the same crime?
Income taxes are not just for the fun of taxation and it does not drive anyone out of anywhere, it's a good way to see to it that everyone provides according to their means and that is all it is.
lozina
Lifer
- Sep 10, 2001
- 11,711
- 8
- 81
It's funny to watch self-proclaimed "conservatives" argue against decreasing spending and cutting taxes 
But our country has survived quite well without income taxes for the majority of it's existence. And no, we weren't "funded by China" either! The only times we needed to levy taxes during our history prior to 1913 when it became permanent was for short period during a war. Now it's like we are in a perpetual war constantly being "war taxed". We have plenty of areas to cut out of the government, mainly military cuts whose budget totals something like 3/4 of a trillion dollars. Heck getting rid of the IRS alone will save us the 11 billion budget they require.
But our country has survived quite well without income taxes for the majority of it's existence. And no, we weren't "funded by China" either! The only times we needed to levy taxes during our history prior to 1913 when it became permanent was for short period during a war. Now it's like we are in a perpetual war constantly being "war taxed". We have plenty of areas to cut out of the government, mainly military cuts whose budget totals something like 3/4 of a trillion dollars. Heck getting rid of the IRS alone will save us the 11 billion budget they require.
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
Originally posted by: lozina
It's funny to watch self-proclaimed "conservatives" argue against decreasing spending and cutting taxes
But our country has survived quite well without income taxes for the majority of it's existence. And no, we weren't "funded by China" either! The only times we needed to levy taxes during our history prior to 1913 when it became permanent was for short period during a war. Now it's like we are in a perpetual war constantly being "war taxed". We have plenty of areas to cut out of the government, mainly military cuts whose budget totals something like 3/4 of a trillion dollars. Heck getting rid of the IRS alone will save us the 11 billion budget they require.
like I said before, eliminating the IRS and incomes taxes altogether sounds fantastic; but I have yet to see any real numbers clearly demonstrating that it's feasible.
I would love to see a list with specific proposed cuts vs. the amount of revenue we'd be left with after eliminating income taxes. But, until I see those real numbers, in black and white, it's just another Ron Paul pipedream...
I did not make any false statements.
By people I meant private citizens. Dont lump corporate taxation and loopholes into rich people. The two topics are completely separate. I would suggest you provide some examples to prove me wrong. Ask Shawn Hannity how much in taxes he payed?
I will say the following.
Tax Laws do not favor the poor or those people who rent, or those people that live month to month.
Tax Laws favor people that go to college, save a good percentage for retirement and people that own property, and corporations.
Tax Laws do not favor the poor, and a flat tax will probably hurt the poor the most.
I dont know what people mean by a fair tax. To me a fair tax should be about what I pay for Tithing at Church, which is 10% of Gross Earnings before taxes. The term Tithe literally means 1 in 10, or 1/10th.
I usually pay more in my Tithing than I do for taxes, and I would consider myself to be at the low end of the Middle Class. The reason for this is there is a standard deduction, and tax deductions for going to college and for incentives to owning a home.
23% is pure baloney. Add that 23% on top of the State and Local taxes and you will get around 25-30% taxation.
That will just increase the wasted spending.
So does this include the Social Security Tax??? We pay more than Income Taxes?
I am not for handing the US Government more tax money than they need. I am not an idiot! I want to see the Whole Plan before I make a decision. I am not going to trust any so-called intelligent people in Washington. Do you know what they call an intelligent person in DC? That is a high paid lawyer that steals your money.
There are some things I would be willing to budge on like removing the Social Security Maximum Tax Cap. Farming Subsidies can go to. Most small farmers can not qualify so it only helps large corporations. All Corporation tax relief should be done away with.
The Federal Governemtn should step in and make it illegal for any municipality, state or federal tax system to give large companies and corporation Tax Abatements for relocating. I have seen this many times. Some company threatens to relocate or build in an alternate location if they are not given a preferential Tax deal. This is basically like extortion. This just punishes the individual home owner and forces the little guy to pay more property tax.
The problem is not the IRS. The problem is the Tax Code. The IRS just enforces the Tax Code. Even if we have a flat tax, someone has to enforce the Tax Code. Congress uses the Tax laws to do favors and to promote one class of people over another. Congress will never favor doing away with this system, which they use all the time for favors for their constituents.
Mark my word the poor and middle class will still lose when it comes to a Flat Tax. What we need is TAX caps that can not be gotten around and some means of keeping Congress from spending more money than they have. The Government is a giang glutton and the congress is just feeding at the trough.
What we need is a line item veto.
By people I meant private citizens. Dont lump corporate taxation and loopholes into rich people. The two topics are completely separate. I would suggest you provide some examples to prove me wrong. Ask Shawn Hannity how much in taxes he payed?
I will say the following.
Tax Laws do not favor the poor or those people who rent, or those people that live month to month.
Tax Laws favor people that go to college, save a good percentage for retirement and people that own property, and corporations.
Tax Laws do not favor the poor, and a flat tax will probably hurt the poor the most.
I dont know what people mean by a fair tax. To me a fair tax should be about what I pay for Tithing at Church, which is 10% of Gross Earnings before taxes. The term Tithe literally means 1 in 10, or 1/10th.
I usually pay more in my Tithing than I do for taxes, and I would consider myself to be at the low end of the Middle Class. The reason for this is there is a standard deduction, and tax deductions for going to college and for incentives to owning a home.
23% is pure baloney. Add that 23% on top of the State and Local taxes and you will get around 25-30% taxation.
That will just increase the wasted spending.
So does this include the Social Security Tax??? We pay more than Income Taxes?
I am not for handing the US Government more tax money than they need. I am not an idiot! I want to see the Whole Plan before I make a decision. I am not going to trust any so-called intelligent people in Washington. Do you know what they call an intelligent person in DC? That is a high paid lawyer that steals your money.
There are some things I would be willing to budge on like removing the Social Security Maximum Tax Cap. Farming Subsidies can go to. Most small farmers can not qualify so it only helps large corporations. All Corporation tax relief should be done away with.
The Federal Governemtn should step in and make it illegal for any municipality, state or federal tax system to give large companies and corporation Tax Abatements for relocating. I have seen this many times. Some company threatens to relocate or build in an alternate location if they are not given a preferential Tax deal. This is basically like extortion. This just punishes the individual home owner and forces the little guy to pay more property tax.
The problem is not the IRS. The problem is the Tax Code. The IRS just enforces the Tax Code. Even if we have a flat tax, someone has to enforce the Tax Code. Congress uses the Tax laws to do favors and to promote one class of people over another. Congress will never favor doing away with this system, which they use all the time for favors for their constituents.
Mark my word the poor and middle class will still lose when it comes to a Flat Tax. What we need is TAX caps that can not be gotten around and some means of keeping Congress from spending more money than they have. The Government is a giang glutton and the congress is just feeding at the trough.
What we need is a line item veto.
- Jul 1, 2004
- 21,029
- 2
- 81
I heard someone talking about this the other day and they made an excellent point.
These days, many Americans are living beyond their means. They are spending more than they make. A national sales tax, as proposed by Huckabee, would result in Americans being taxed on money they don't even freakin' have yet.
This whole idea is utterly stupid. Unless you're filthy rich, you're fucked. No, we're already being fucked now. This is more like double penetration.
These days, many Americans are living beyond their means. They are spending more than they make. A national sales tax, as proposed by Huckabee, would result in Americans being taxed on money they don't even freakin' have yet.
This whole idea is utterly stupid. Unless you're filthy rich, you're fucked. No, we're already being fucked now. This is more like double penetration.
What I don't like is government ineffiecency. The government has far to many people doing nothing in it. I would like to see some sort of plan for down sizing of nonessential jobs.
This is a terrible idea. Any tax professional who has worked with state and local transaction taxes (like sales and use tax) will tell you that their clients have a hard enough time complying with state and local law. If you add a Federal sales tax on top of that, you run the risk of a business having to comply with three or four sets of law on one transaction. The administrative burden for this tax will be enormous compared to the systems already in place for the Federal income tax.
Cogman
Lifer
- Sep 19, 2000
- 10,286
- 145
- 106
Here is the biggest problem I see with any major change like this, it will only be followed through half way (like many of the things in the government). That half is the IRS remaining and a flat federal tax. Because they have such little money to spend as it is...
the government system is not entirely broken as is, but it is broken. I think it would be far better to frist have the government officials cut down spending and lower taxes, THEN think about some major reform. After all, money comes from somewhere, and making some big plan on a system reform is not going to make the money stop comming, it is just going to shift the focus on where it is comming from (and make it a little more deceptive)
the government system is not entirely broken as is, but it is broken. I think it would be far better to frist have the government officials cut down spending and lower taxes, THEN think about some major reform. After all, money comes from somewhere, and making some big plan on a system reform is not going to make the money stop comming, it is just going to shift the focus on where it is comming from (and make it a little more deceptive)
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