We have a simple peer to peer system set up in our office with (2) 8-port 10baseT hubs. We're expanding and our growth is also showing up in much larger files being transfered. Can I plug a 10/100 switch into our existing hubs? I don't understand much of the difference between a switch and a hub other than switches allow faster throughput.
Hubs and switches mixable?
- Thread starter Abednigo
- Start date
There are many threads in here and in many other places that cover specific differences between switches and hubs for your education, so I'm not going to explain. A search here or on the web will provide gobs of info.
To answer the original question, yes, they can be mixed. Keep in mind however, that unless these hubs are also 10/100, they will not allow full-duplexing. This would be a bottleneck on your network. On a small network, such a bottleneck may be unnoticiable, but on a larger network, it will definitely be noticable.
To answer the original question, yes, they can be mixed. Keep in mind however, that unless these hubs are also 10/100, they will not allow full-duplexing. This would be a bottleneck on your network. On a small network, such a bottleneck may be unnoticiable, but on a larger network, it will definitely be noticable.
Hi
um, not sure where the comments on Full Duplex came from - I've got a Netgear 10/100 4-port hub, and it does full-duplex no probs (verified via Sisoft Sandra, and network diags). Anyway, to answer your question - a switch can be plugged into your network just fine.
The differences between a switch and a hub is that a hub broadcasts data transmissions to all it's ports, while a switch is "smart", and only sends data to the machine that's asking for it - this results in faster transfers, since the switch is not causing collisions with data from other machines on the network. Hence a switch makes a difference only if multiple users are using (or abusing
) the network at once..
If only a few of your users are transferring large files, put them all on the switch, and plug the two hubs into the switch as well - unlike a hub, a switch can accept uplinks via any port, without requiring crossover cables. A switch allows you to segregate the network...ie say you had the two hubs connected to the switch. Now, if two users on hub one were transferring a large file to each other, then the switch would prevent the traffic from being transferred to hub 2, therefore allowing users of hub 2 to communicate with each other at full speed..
sheesh.....anymore questions, just ask...I'll try to explain in less than 1000000 words next time, promise!
cheers
tweakr
um, not sure where the comments on Full Duplex came from - I've got a Netgear 10/100 4-port hub, and it does full-duplex no probs (verified via Sisoft Sandra, and network diags). Anyway, to answer your question - a switch can be plugged into your network just fine.
The differences between a switch and a hub is that a hub broadcasts data transmissions to all it's ports, while a switch is "smart", and only sends data to the machine that's asking for it - this results in faster transfers, since the switch is not causing collisions with data from other machines on the network. Hence a switch makes a difference only if multiple users are using (or abusing
) the network at once..If only a few of your users are transferring large files, put them all on the switch, and plug the two hubs into the switch as well - unlike a hub, a switch can accept uplinks via any port, without requiring crossover cables. A switch allows you to segregate the network...ie say you had the two hubs connected to the switch. Now, if two users on hub one were transferring a large file to each other, then the switch would prevent the traffic from being transferred to hub 2, therefore allowing users of hub 2 to communicate with each other at full speed..
sheesh...
..anymore questions, just ask...I'll try to explain in less than 1000000 words next time, promise!cheers
tweakr
Aha - that's exactly what I was wondering. I did find some other great posts on differences between hubs and switches... just couldn't find if I could mix n match. Thanks again.
Hi again
ktwebb - the hub is a Netgear DS104 4-port 10/100 Hub...the NICS (also Netgear) autodetect full duplex from it....
cheers
tweakr
ktwebb - the hub is a Netgear DS104 4-port 10/100 Hub...the NICS (also Netgear) autodetect full duplex from it....
cheers
tweakr
tweakr: That hub is not full duplex, no hub is. No where on Netgears page does it say it is, and u would think they would be the first to advertise full duplex for their own gear.
http://www.netgear.com/products/ds_108/index.shtml
http://www.netgear.com/products/ds_108/index.shtml
Hi again guys
Well, I don't see how the hub CAN'T be full duplex - If I subsitute a crossover cable for the hub, then I get the exact same performance - now, both the NICs are FD capable, so this implies that the hub is also FD..otherwise there would be a noticable drop in performance, no?
I don't mind being proven wrong, but the numbers don't match with what you're saying...If there's a good reason for this, I await it with interest...
cheers
tweakr
Well, I don't see how the hub CAN'T be full duplex - If I subsitute a crossover cable for the hub, then I get the exact same performance - now, both the NICs are FD capable, so this implies that the hub is also FD..otherwise there would be a noticable drop in performance, no?
I don't mind being proven wrong, but the numbers don't match with what you're saying...If there's a good reason for this, I await it with interest...
cheers
tweakr
The IEEE 802.3 standards say that a hub (repeater) can not be full duplex. Only a switch can do full duplex.
Does your netgear NIC have the 5 LED's at the back??? if so, one of them will be a duplex indicator. Make sure the drivers are set to autonegotiate for duplex and then connect the NIC to the hub... the duplex LED should be OFF.
If you set a NIC to full duplex and connect it to a hub (which is only half duplex) you will experience loads of collisions, and a reduction in bandwidth on your network.
In your experiment (replacing a cross over cable in place of the hub) did you transfer files in both directions at the same time, and are both your NIC's set to auto negotiate for dupllex??? full duplex allows the port to transmit AND receive at the same time... half duplex and the port can only transmit OR receive at any time.
Mr-Mayhem
Does your netgear NIC have the 5 LED's at the back??? if so, one of them will be a duplex indicator. Make sure the drivers are set to autonegotiate for duplex and then connect the NIC to the hub... the duplex LED should be OFF.
If you set a NIC to full duplex and connect it to a hub (which is only half duplex) you will experience loads of collisions, and a reduction in bandwidth on your network.
In your experiment (replacing a cross over cable in place of the hub) did you transfer files in both directions at the same time, and are both your NIC's set to auto negotiate for dupllex??? full duplex allows the port to transmit AND receive at the same time... half duplex and the port can only transmit OR receive at any time.
Mr-Mayhem
Quote:
"...and plug the two hubs into the switch as well - unlike a hub, a switch can accept uplinks via any port, without requiring crossover cables."
Only if that were true. While it may be possible for some high-end enterprise switches to auto-detect that sort of thing, a little Netgear certainly certainly can't. It does include a handy little xover switch for one of the ports, if I'm not mistaken.
"...and plug the two hubs into the switch as well - unlike a hub, a switch can accept uplinks via any port, without requiring crossover cables."
Only if that were true. While it may be possible for some high-end enterprise switches to auto-detect that sort of thing, a little Netgear certainly certainly can't. It does include a handy little xover switch for one of the ports, if I'm not mistaken.
Hi again
Mr.Mahem - I checked the LEDs like you said, and sure enough the FD light wasn't on. I stand corrected on this..I was misled by Sandra's network benchmarking utility, which reported the speed of my network to be very near to that of a 100BaseT FD one - I was under the impression that there would be a great difference in performance between a FD and HD network - can anyone confirm the validity of Sandra for this benchmarking?
Robotnik - As for this, I was not talking about my Netgear hub at this point - all switches are capable of using any of their ports as an uplink without requiring a crossover cable, due to the way they segregate the ports. This is why they are often used as the "backbone" of a network, linking the hubs together.
cheers guys
tweakr
Mr.Mahem - I checked the LEDs like you said, and sure enough the FD light wasn't on. I stand corrected on this..I was misled by Sandra's network benchmarking utility, which reported the speed of my network to be very near to that of a 100BaseT FD one - I was under the impression that there would be a great difference in performance between a FD and HD network - can anyone confirm the validity of Sandra for this benchmarking?
Robotnik - As for this, I was not talking about my Netgear hub at this point - all switches are capable of using any of their ports as an uplink without requiring a crossover cable, due to the way they segregate the ports. This is why they are often used as the "backbone" of a network, linking the hubs together.
cheers guys
tweakr
tweakr very few switches are able to use any port as uplink without an x-over cable unless they are very high end switches, but 95% dont have this feature.
"all switches are capable of using any of their ports as an uplink without requiring a crossover cable"
Another incorrect statement. If you get technical, it is true if you use a crossover coupler instead of a cable, but that is stretching it.
Others beat me too it, but I had emailed Netgear about a full duplex hub. Needless to say, none exist. Havent actually read the IEEE standard that states a hub doesnt do full duplex, but I dont doubt it either.
Another incorrect statement. If you get technical, it is true if you use a crossover coupler instead of a cable, but that is stretching it.
Others beat me too it, but I had emailed Netgear about a full duplex hub. Needless to say, none exist. Havent actually read the IEEE standard that states a hub doesnt do full duplex, but I dont doubt it either.
All standard hub, or switch ports are wired as MDIX (AKA Normal port). There is normally a seperate port that is wired as a MDI (AKA uplink) port, or there will be a switch next to one of the ports to toggle it between MDI and MDIX.
NIC's on the other hand are always wired as a MDI port.
To get a LINK with a straight through cable, you must always have a MDIX port connected to a MDI port... you will never get a LINK connecting a MDI port to a MDI or MDIX to MDIX.
With a crossover cable you must connect a MDI to MDI or MDIX to MDIX because the crossover cable takes care of swapping the Tx and Rx lines.
Some PHY (Physical layer) chip manufacturers are making auto-negotiate MDI/MDIX devices... this is as a result of the gigabit 802.3ab 1000BaseT standard. Over time you will start to see these devices getting into the cheeper network products.
Mr-Mayhem
NIC's on the other hand are always wired as a MDI port.
To get a LINK with a straight through cable, you must always have a MDIX port connected to a MDI port... you will never get a LINK connecting a MDI port to a MDI or MDIX to MDIX.
With a crossover cable you must connect a MDI to MDI or MDIX to MDIX because the crossover cable takes care of swapping the Tx and Rx lines.
Some PHY (Physical layer) chip manufacturers are making auto-negotiate MDI/MDIX devices... this is as a result of the gigabit 802.3ab 1000BaseT standard. Over time you will start to see these devices getting into the cheeper network products.
Mr-Mayhem
tweakr, I would venture to guess that the reason why you saw no diff between a xover cable and the hub was because you weren't sending enough traffic through the hub. If you really want to see a diff setup about 4 PC's and start sending gobs of data and see what happens. The bandwidth will drop off sharply. 2 PC's though a hub won't make a huge impact, in fact at that point it's esentially a costly xover cable.
BoNeZ
BoNeZ
I've got a Linksys 5-port 10/100 autosensing hub. With both of the nics I've tried with it (Intel PRO/100B and a Kingston 21140-based card), it autonegotiates 100mb Full Duplex. On the Kingston card, the FD led on the back of the card comes on (and yes, I know the led works, I've had it running in half duplex mode before). With the Intel card, the PROSet utility shows that it's running in full duplex mode (I know this works also). I really doubt that the hub is actually full duplex, but maybe Linksys screwed up the way it negotiates with NICs.
the switch can _accept_ uplinks on any port, but you can only uplink _it_ from the uplink port. I have 2 linksys switches, and when you plug anything into the uplink port, it disables the switch's DHCP server and any filtering that it was doing.
apologies... my bad on the hub/half-sup/full-dup... poorly worded on my part. It was supposed to say "even if these hubs are 10/100 they will not allow FD" which under the context of the rest of the paragraph allows the statement to make more sense.
sorry for the confusion
As to the uplink ports...
Typically either the first port or the last port on any switch or hub I've seen will be the uplink port. That is, the "out" port for connecting to another hub or switch. the receiving hub or switch can accept the signal on any port.
sorry for the confusion
As to the uplink ports...
Typically either the first port or the last port on any switch or hub I've seen will be the uplink port. That is, the "out" port for connecting to another hub or switch. the receiving hub or switch can accept the signal on any port.
Hi again
Sorry for the mistakes...next time I get bored, I'll not leave the Cases and Cooling forum, deal?
Bonez - I tried my hub with all the ports filled, and the uplink onto another 10mb hub with 4 machines on it - still got close to full Duplex performance even with lotsa stuff happening (UT server up, file transfers etcetc)...so I still not sure about the reliability of Sandra for benchmarking networks.
anyway, I give up - you people know WAAY too much for a poor little overclocker like myself to compete
cheers
tweakr
Sorry for the mistakes...next time I get bored, I'll not leave the Cases and Cooling forum, deal?
Bonez - I tried my hub with all the ports filled, and the uplink onto another 10mb hub with 4 machines on it - still got close to full Duplex performance even with lotsa stuff happening (UT server up, file transfers etcetc)...so I still not sure about the reliability of Sandra for benchmarking networks.
anyway, I give up - you people know WAAY too much for a poor little overclocker like myself to compete
cheers
tweakr
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