How's your hope for America?

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,624
6,452
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This Article spells out the situation and where our hope lies. What do you figure our odds are?

Op-Ed Columnist
1938 in 2010By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: September 5, 2010

Here’s the situation: The U.S. economy has been crippled by a financial crisis. The president’s policies have limited the damage, but they were too cautious, and unemployment remains disastrously high. More action is clearly needed. Yet the public has soured on government activism, and seems poised to deal Democrats a severe defeat in the midterm elections.

The president in question is Franklin Delano Roosevelt; the year is 1938. Within a few years, of course, the Great Depression was over. But it’s both instructive and discouraging to look at the state of America circa 1938 — instructive because the nature of the recovery that followed refutes the arguments dominating today’s public debate, discouraging because it’s hard to see anything like the miracle of the 1940s happening again.

Now, we weren’t supposed to find ourselves replaying the late 1930s. President Obama’s economists promised not to repeat the mistakes of 1937, when F.D.R. pulled back fiscal stimulus too soon. But by making his program too small and too short-lived, Mr. Obama did just that: the stimulus raised growth while it lasted, but it made only a small dent in unemployment — and now it’s fading out.

And just as some of us feared, the inadequacy of the administration’s initial economic plan has landed it — and the nation — in a political trap. More stimulus is desperately needed, but in the public’s eyes the failure of the initial program to deliver a convincing recovery has discredited government action to create jobs.

In short, welcome to 1938.

The story of 1937, of F.D.R.’s disastrous decision to heed those who said that it was time to slash the deficit, is well known. What’s less well known is the extent to which the public drew the wrong conclusions from the recession that followed: far from calling for a resumption of New Deal programs, voters lost faith in fiscal expansion.

Consider Gallup polling from March 1938. Asked whether government spending should be increased to fight the slump, 63 percent of those polled said no. Asked whether it would be better to increase spending or to cut business taxes, only 15 percent favored spending; 63 percent favored tax cuts. And the 1938 election was a disaster for the Democrats, who lost 70 seats in the House and seven in the Senate.

Then came the war.

From an economic point of view World War II was, above all, a burst of deficit-financed government spending, on a scale that would never have been approved otherwise. Over the course of the war the federal government borrowed an amount equal to roughly twice the value of G.D.P. in 1940 — the equivalent of roughly $30 trillion today.

Had anyone proposed spending even a fraction that much before the war, people would have said the same things they’re saying today. They would have warned about crushing debt and runaway inflation. They would also have said, rightly, that the Depression was in large part caused by excess debt — and then have declared that it was impossible to fix this problem by issuing even more debt.

But guess what? Deficit spending created an economic boom — and the boom laid the foundation for long-run prosperity. Overall debt in the economy — public plus private — actually fell as a percentage of G.D.P., thanks to economic growth and, yes, some inflation, which reduced the real value of outstanding debts. And after the war, thanks to the improved financial position of the private sector, the economy was able to thrive without continuing deficits.

The economic moral is clear: when the economy is deeply depressed, the usual rules don’t apply. Austerity is self-defeating: when everyone tries to pay down debt at the same time, the result is depression and deflation, and debt problems grow even worse. And conversely, it is possible — indeed, necessary — for the nation as a whole to spend its way out of debt: a temporary surge of deficit spending, on a sufficient scale, can cure problems brought on by past excesses.

But the story of 1938 also shows how hard it is to apply these insights. Even under F.D.R., there was never the political will to do what was needed to end the Great Depression; its eventual resolution came essentially by accident.

I had hoped that we would do better this time. But it turns out that politicians and economists alike have spent decades unlearning the lessons of the 1930s, and are determined to repeat all the old mistakes. And it’s slightly sickening to realize that the big winners in the midterm elections are likely to be the very people who first got us into this mess, then did everything in their power to block action to get us out.

But always remember: this slump can be cured. All it will take is a little bit of intellectual clarity, and a lot of political will. Here’s hoping we find those virtues in the not too distant future.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Not good. You are overpaid, get too many benefits and other costs keeping you around.....plus there are a lot smarter guys in India and China who are willing to work twice has hard for a tenth of your salary......and probably do a better job than you do to. WTF would those with all the marbles hire you?

Domestic non-tradeable or exportable service he says - don't worry we got that one figured out too. unfettered immigration.

You're not in Kansas anymore and it's not 1937 anymore.
 
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ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
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It's fun to watch your country destroy itself. I hope it continues, for my entertainment.
lol


Anyway, what the article states is what the followers of Keynesian (demand-side) economics have been saying for years. When times are good, it's time to reduce spending, pay off debt, lower taxes when possible. When shit hits the fan, it's time to raise taxes, increase spending, and forget about what it costs. Government jobs get people back to work and spending money. This puts demand back into the economy so private industry can get going again.

A similar logical thought pattern is used when people decide to go to university. They take on enormous debt as well as huge opportunity cost (lost wages from not working) in hopes of developing a greater demand for themselves since engineers are higher demand than dick suckers and burger flippers. If done properly, the properly trained university grad will earn enough money to pay back all of the debt, make up for all lost wages, and end up having more money than if they had just worked a shit job forever.


Of course some people are stupid as fuck and don't get economics at all. Those people say it's time to reduce spending, do not stimulate the economy at all, and just let the recession ride out for the next 10-20 years. What an awesome strategy! The people suggesting that all happen to be dropouts who thought the debt related to going to school wasn't worth it. Burger flipping with no personal debt is way better than being a doctor or engineer with huge debt, am i rite guyz?
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
OP's article forgets a lot of history about FDR and WW2, and ignores most economic advice.

President Obama's stimulus and spending bills equal in less than 2 years what it took President Bush 8 years to do. The fact that the 'stimulus' was, and is still, being spent on the most retarded things is like rubbing salt into the wound. Had the stimulus money been spent on infrastructure, school funding, and the like, it would have been a much more effective investment. Instead, we spend millions of dollars on rope bridges for squirrels and researching mating habits of slugs.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
OP's article forgets a lot of history about FDR and WW2, and ignores most economic advice.

President Obama's stimulus and spending bills equal in less than 2 years what it took President Bush 8 years to do. The fact that the 'stimulus' was, and is still, being spent on the most retarded things is like rubbing salt into the wound. Had the stimulus money been spent on infrastructure, school funding, and the like, it would have been a much more effective investment. Instead, we spend millions of dollars on rope bridges for squirrels and researching mating habits of slugs.

Krugman also ignores the fact that the the money borrowed for WW2 was largely from American people. Sorry, Mr. Krugman, but the American people can't lend $30 trillion to their government.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
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Instead, we spend millions of dollars on rope bridges for squirrels and researching mating habits of slugs.
Stimulus is stimulus. While I agree that it's retarded to build tanks just to watch them get blown up by German Tiger tanks or build bridges for squirrels, it's still stimulus. Instead of ATOTers masturbating all day in their parents' basement, you can pay them $10/h to build some stupid bridge for squirrels. They then take that $10/h and throw it into the economy to create demand for products.


Krugman also ignores the fact that the the money borrowed for WW2 was largely from American people. Sorry, Mr. Krugman, but the American people can't lend $30 trillion to their government.
If they won't lend it, steal it. Lincoln paid for the civil war by taking US dollars off the gold standard and printing as much money as he wanted.
That's actually a clever way to trick the middle and upper classes into buying US bonds. First you start printing fuckloads of money and it causes steep inflation. Then you offer government bonds that are adjusted to inflation + a small profit. People who don't want to lose everything can buy the inflation adjusted bonds that will be paid back or renewed in 20 or 30 years.
 
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brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
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Krugman also ignores the fact that the the money borrowed for WW2 was largely from American people. Sorry, Mr. Krugman, but the American people can't lend $30 trillion to their government.

Exactly. We didn't already have a crushing debt on hand looking to borrow massively more, nor were we borrowing every plug nickel from communist China either.

And it's worth noting that the positive sentiment generated among investors and households in response to stimulus is actually the more important outcome to achieve, rather than the act of throwing massive amounts of money at the problem. We can achieve that positive sentiment even from austerity, if people come to realize they won't be taxed later to pay for a massive borrowed stimulus. By all accounts, Europe should be wiping out right now because most of them recently chose austerity instead of the Keynsian model of more spending. But the opposite happened...the EUR recovered and things have stabilized substantially, plus now they are outperforming the U.S. market.

Time to tighten the belt here too.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
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Krugman also ignores the fact that the the money borrowed for WW2 was largely from American people. Sorry, Mr. Krugman, but the American people can't lend $30 trillion to their government.

Sure they could, but they wouldn't.
Those Americans don't exist anymore.
Cut back to 1 ply toilet paper??? Hell, nowadays you need 2000 dollars worth of products to take a shit.
 

nyker96

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2005
5,630
2
81
yes I also read similar articles in a few other online sites comparing 1930s economic problem to now. I think the fear is the "double dip" recession or a very prolonged recession like in Japan (even in recession after 10 years of recovery).

This phenomenon happens because during a severe recession, people loses faith in the government's ability to protect them from financial problems. This fear drives popular actions. But it's precisely at times like these, a concentrated major government infusion of work programs is needed to kick start the economy again, like a dead patient in need of a jolt from the defibrillator. However, it is precisely this time that there's absolutely zero public tolerance for government actions. so the cycle begins as:

public distrust of gov --> no decisive gov action to restart eco --> economy do a double or triple dip into recession --> more public distrust of gov (cycle now repeat from the beginning)

I think this happens because the public is not distinguishing one government from another at this point. They think the original government that causes this disaster (Bush and co.) is the same as the current government that is trying to do something different with the economy. It's like once they got burnt by a quack they stopped trusting any doctor from now on. Yet to get well again, they need to trust some doctor.
 
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Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
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The New Deal worked so well that one of its architects wrote in his diary in May 1939:

"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and now if I am wrong somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosper. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises. I say after eight years of this administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started. And enormous debt to boot."

Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau
 

kranky

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
21,019
156
106
Any comparison of today's problems to the 1930's which ignores important differences like foreign-funded deficit spending, the trade deficit, the cost of social programs in place today, the level of CONSUMER debt and today's lack of a manufacturing base in the US is simply a waste of words. It's apples and oranges. Actually, it's more like apples and moon rocks - the situations are that different.
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
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I think this happens because the public is not distinguishing one government from another at this point. They think the original government that causes this disaster (Bush and co.) is the same as the current government that is trying to do something different with the economy. It's like once they got burnt by a quack they stopped trusting any doctor from now on. Yet to get well again, they need to trust some doctor.

Yeah...it was Bush that torpedoed all faith in govt. More "but Booooooosh did it" crap. Sorry, many cynics like myself haven't trusted the govt to do anything right in 30+ years. The problem is much more institutionalized than just the past 10 yrs.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,292
8,329
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From an economic point of view World War II was, above all, a burst of deficit-financed government spending, on a scale that would never have been approved otherwise. Over the course of the war the federal government borrowed an amount equal to roughly twice the value of G.D.P. in 1940 — the equivalent of roughly $30 trillion today.

Good thing your President offered to spend 1/30th of what is needed under your own economic theory then!

Democrats have the utmost power in government that they could ever hope to attain, and when pushing their theory of spending they fail miserably and miss the mark by 30x what their own theory demands in order for it to be successful. I'd say they half-assed their own efforts, but that would have been 15x what we've spent. Success, even by their own theories, is something FAR beyond what they've ever dreamed of accomplishing.

Where is the $29 trillion economic stimulus bill Mr. Krugman?
 
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GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
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The country that put man on the moon some 40 years ago is on slow but constant downslide to obsolescence, full of whiny spoiled idiots.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
0
Any comparison of today's problems to the 1930's which ignores important differences like foreign-funded deficit spending, the trade deficit, the cost of social programs in place today, the level of CONSUMER debt and today's lack of a manufacturing base in the US is simply a waste of words. It's apples and oranges. Actually, it's more like apples and moon rocks - the situations are that different.

The mooonbeam/Craig population will argue that extensively, claiming that progressive policies and massive spending got us out of the Great Depression easily, and will do that same today, flaunting their massive ignorance of history and of modern economics. There have been several threads in which this has taken place.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Good thing your President offered to spend 1/30th of what is needed under your own economic theory then!

Democrats have the utmost power in government that they could ever hope to attain, and when pushing their theory of spending they fail miserably and miss the mark by 30x what their own theory demands in order for it to be successful. I'd say they half-assed their own efforts, but that would have been 15x what we've spent. Success, even by their own theories, is something FAR beyond what they've ever dreamed of accomplishing.

Where is the $29 trillion economic stimulus bill Mr. Krugman?

First, Krugman has said we need bigger stimulus. So you're not 'correcting him'.

Second, Democrats do NOT have 'the utmost power' - much less progressives, who have a bit under half the party, with many Democrats being 'blue dogs' or corporatists.

The Republicans have blocked the Democrats very much with their abuse of the filibuster.

The Democrats have had a 'real majority' before - able to pass things without Republicans - and did a lot of good with it. We could use that again.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
Sure they could, but they wouldn't.
Those Americans don't exist anymore.
Cut back to 1 ply toilet paper??? Hell, nowadays you need 2000 dollars worth of products to take a shit.

After using 3 ply toilet paper for the first time a week ago, I would say it's worth it. It doesn't feel like I'm rubbing sand paper on my ass. I also hate how 1 ply needs to be taken out as an arm length then folder over 20 times just to prevent it from ripping through and getting shit all over my hand.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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The mooonbeam/Craig population will argue that extensively, claiming that progressive policies and massive spending got us out of the Great Depression easily, and will do that same today, flaunting their massive ignorance of history and of modern economics. There have been several threads in which this has taken place.

How about you not talk about other people's positions you don't understand, not lie about other people, and stick to your own opinions. Why should I have to clean up your mess?

Probably 95% of the posts I see saying my position are quite wrong, in part explaining the wrongness of the posters with their 'responses' to the straw men.

I could spend all day responding with corrections, but why should I have to, instead of people not posting misrepresentations?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,292
8,329
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First, Krugman has said we need bigger stimulus. So you're not 'correcting him'.

You misunderstand.

It's your party that has power and has not sought anything remotely near the real number required by your own theories. The 'correcting' is directed at the party for never putting a successful implementation of this theory up for a vote.

Second, Democrats do NOT have 'the utmost power' - much less progressives, who have a bit under half the party, with many Democrats being 'blue dogs' or corporatists.
You think a single party would ever hold more than 60 seats in the Senate? Even now, your power in Congress is the most they could ever hope to attain as the pendulum swings. If you think you lack votes now, wait until November's elections.

You had your best chance in decades.

The Republicans have blocked the Democrats very much with their abuse of the filibuster.

The Democrats have had a 'real majority' before - able to pass things without Republicans - and did a lot of good with it. We could use that again.
You want more power than you had in early 2009, how ever do you think you'll get it? When? Certainly not this decade. You'll need another round of Republicans in control where the people grow angry at them.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
How about you not talk about other people's positions you don't understand, not lie about other people, and stick to your own opinions. Why should I have to clean up your mess?

Probably 95% of the posts I see saying my position are quite wrong, in part explaining the wrongness of the posters with their 'responses' to the straw men.

I could spend all day responding with corrections, but why should I have to, instead of people not posting misrepresentations?


We have to clean up the progressive agenda's mess from the 60s where the net effect has become "give a man a fish, and keep giving it to him". The failed policies we were handed encourage generation after generation of baby making machines without any solution offered at all except for "we need more fish"
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
From an economic point of view World War II was, above all, a burst of deficit-financed government spending, on a scale that would never have been approved otherwise. Over the course of the war the federal government borrowed an amount equal to roughly twice the value of G.D.P. in 1940 — the equivalent of roughly $30 trillion today.

Krugman forgot a very important part of that giant stimulus that was critical to our economic success in the following years. We used that 30 Trillion dollars to bomb the hell out of all the industrialized nations in Europe and the Pacific. We don't need a stimulus, we need to bomb France, Germany, Japan, China, Italy, and a lot of other countries into the ground so that when the bombing is over, we are the only ones left with a huge industrial base and everyone has to buy from us.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
If they won't lend it, steal it. Lincoln paid for the civil war by taking US dollars off the gold standard and printing as much money as he wanted.
That's actually a clever way to trick the middle and upper classes into buying US bonds. First you start printing fuckloads of money and it causes steep inflation. Then you offer government bonds that are adjusted to inflation + a small profit. People who don't want to lose everything can buy the inflation adjusted bonds that will be paid back or renewed in 20 or 30 years.

You think this is a good idea? :\
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
0
How about you not talk about other people's positions you don't understand, not lie about other people, and stick to your own opinions. Why should I have to clean up your mess?

Probably 95% of the posts I see saying my position are quite wrong, in part explaining the wrongness of the posters with their 'responses' to the straw men.

I could spend all day responding with corrections, but why should I have to, instead of people not posting misrepresentations?

First off, you're an idiot.

You lie about everything.

Lastly, you're an idiot.




Hey look! I made a Craig post!
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
You think this is a good idea? :\
Somewhat. The current situation is totally fucked and is not getting better. According to that thread Nick1985 started, unemployment in the US actually went up in the last little bit. The method of "do nothing" is just that - it does nothing.

The situation right now is really grim. The fed cut interest rates as low as they could go and people are still not lending out money. Liquidity is really low right now. If you want to start a new business, you can't. If you want to expand your existing business, you can't. If you want to make more money and use that to expand the business, you can't because demand is way down and business are losing money in all directions.

Simple solution: bunch of goverment projects to fix shit that is actually broken. No squirrel bridges or bridges leading to nowhere, but actual infrastructure. Maybe start a project to get high speed fios internet in every part of every urban area. Old shitty sewer lines should be replaced with better ones. Decayed roads should be ripped up and replaced. Get people working. Right now they are hungry and desperate. You could get people doing road construction for $10 per hour, which is a good 50% discount of what it would normally cost.

If I'm right, the economy gets better and the government simply lets the contracts expire as the spending project comes to an end.
If I'm wrong, your situation is just as fucked as it is right now except you have faster internet, better roads, and the sewer lines don't break in winter.


It's also assumed that welfare programs and unemployment insurance benefits would be cut to the bone to make this happen. That would flood the market with people who are desperate to work for minimum wage and will be part of the construction project to rebuild the empire. :awe: