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How would you divide Israel and Palestine?

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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,991
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They probably didn't think people would take them seriously trying to claim land designated from holy text which nobody can prove accurate.

If somebody tells you so and so was over there walking on water, 1 thing is cerrtain. They're full of shit.

An Israeli state really never should have been established. I'd say it's comparable to Michael Jackson creating never never land.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Even if I am an Israeli government critic, I have to somewhat disagree with you, airdata.
The point is, on 5/1948, it was the current world consensus to establish an Israeli state, the surrounding Arab states with standing armies and heavy weapons screamed Nimby. And by a minor miracle and long odds, Israeli organization and unity defeated the Arab armies who were totally disorganized and ill co-originated. And when the dust settled, the Israelis won and the Arab armies lost. As the Arab armies were soon going wee wee wee all the way home.

It was only after that fact the Israelis screwed up their future on three points. (1) the Israelis betrayed their pledge to the UN to equally and fairly treat all their 1948 inhabitants who were 1/3 Israeli Jews and 2/3 Palestinians. But given the fact the Palestinian people inside the 1948 borders were almost totally unarmed and therefore weak, the 1948 Israeli government somehow concocted the total fiction that the Palestinian people who had no weapon were equally responsible for the actions of the Arab States who had had heavy artillery, tanks, and an air force. Maybe some small subset of the Palestinian people did actively fight on the Arab side, but its defined as a collective punishment war crime to punish ALL Palestinians for the crimes of a few. But that the first established Israeli government in fact did. And to guild that original lily even more, Israeli terrorists were systematically murdering Palestinians even before the formation of the Israeli state. As those same terrorists like future Israeli PM were using terrorism to blow up British military headquarters in the King David Hotel as only as subset in the long prehistory of Israeli Zionist terrorism. But still the UN let Israel get away with that crapola, and by 1951, aping previous Nazi tactics, the Israeli government had confiscated the property and forced all the original Palestinians out of 1948 Israel at the point of a gun. As at least Israel let some of those fleeing to escape with their lives. While creating the Palestinian right to return that will never go away. Some Palestinians fled North to Lebanon and Syria only to be miserably by the Lebanese and the Syrians. More Palestinians fled to the South, to the no man's land of West Bank, and to the clear territory that belonged to Egypt in Gaza.

(2) Part of the same UN plan that created the State of Israeli was to next create a Palestinian State in the West Bank. But that plan got ignored after Nasser in Egypt tried to nationalize the Suez canal. And at the same time, the Arabs aped Israel and confiscated all Jewish property in their countries. Again nothing the fault of the Palestinian people but again the Palestinians caught all the blame. As the other factor became Arab traditions to shelter shelter the innocent as the Pals received shelter and aid from Jordan and the Egyptians. But when the Jordanians the Egyptians quite properly refused to grant citizen ship to a penniless Palestinian made penniless and robbed by Israelis, why should it be their responsibilities? But when we listen to Israeli fan clubbers, they maintain its proof positive that all of the Palestinian people are total rat finks undeserving of any human rights. And that therefore Israel is acting correctly to likewise deny the Palestinians all human rights because only Israelis are the master race.

(3) And now here we are, in late 2012, when the entire world revisits the issues, its Israeli extremists that prevent a fairer future settlement for mid-east peace.

As I still maintain, if the 1948 Israeli leaders had not so badly criminally mistreated its original Palestinian inhabitants, Israeli would be a useful and recognized part of the mid-east long ago. And if Israeli rightest think they will end up with it all, they may well end up with nothing.

And in case the Israeli nut cases like Bozo Netanyuhu keep denying present new reality,
 
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RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,650
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I'd tell them that there isn't any more Israel or Palestine. There is now only Israstine. Now make if fucking work already because you are not getting another penny in foreign aid or defense help if you can't.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,991
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I'd tell them that there isn't any more Israel or Palestine. There is now only Israstine. Now make if fucking work already because you are not getting another penny in foreign aid or defense help if you can't.
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What an idiot you are in MHO, RightisWrong. As you blame only Iran for a problem that started in 1948. And continues to this day. Next you will tells us that Hamas in Gaza, which was a non-factor until 2005, is and was the root of all evil in ever since 1948.

And when Israeli bullshit got badly outvoted in the UN on 11/29/2012, it must be all Iran's fault. Or maybe its the fault of North Korea, or the Simians.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,462
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Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Kuwait, Tunisia, and both Sudans divide the Palestinians amongst themselves and grant them citizenship.

Jerusalem is turned into an independent city state like the Vatican.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,991
2
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Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Kuwait, Tunisia, and both Sudans divide the Palestinians amongst themselves and grant them citizenship.

Jerusalem is turned into an independent city state like the Vatican.
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Brilliant simply Brilliant randomrouge. Foist off the Palestinian people who came from pre 1948 Israel on the Arabs. Its almost as brilliant as the Israeli plan to hope the Palestinians people will grow gills and swim off into the Mediterranean sea.

But why you are at it randomrouge, why don't yoy advocate the few remaining nations that still support Israeli bullshit like Canada and the United States, to assimilate the 4 million Palestinians and thus help take the Palestinians raped of all their human rights off Israel's hands.

As Henny Penny says, no one robbed of their property and therefore penny less wants to assimilate such Palestinian refugees that came from 1948 Israel. Especially when 1948 Israel is still the robbers and the responsible nation.

Have you got any more brilliant ideas randonrouge? And when some set of thugs steal your house land and property, you will feel justified if only the Arabs agree to at least feed you, when they are not the party who stole your land and property.
 

Screech

Golden Member
Oct 20, 2004
1,202
6
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There will never be a right to return. Except perhaps for one that allows for those alive in 48 to return.

I would give everyone effectively 67 borders but with israel taking jerusalem and a wide corridor to it. The arabs and palestinians have shown they don't deserve it. Sorry.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,991
2
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There will never be a right to return. Except perhaps for one that allows for those alive in 48 to return.

I would give everyone effectively 67 borders but with israel taking jerusalem and a wide corridor to it. The arabs and palestinians have shown they don't deserve it. Sorry.
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In terms of saying the Palestinians simply don't deserve human right because of bad behavior, other may also say, since Israeli behavior post 1948 , that Israelis don't deserve anything either.

But still, this forum cannot control the international community, and if a mutually negotiated settlement between Israel and the Palestinian people is no longer possible, the world community may force binding third party arbitration to settle the issue. And it depends how far back such binding third party arbitrators wish. As the Israeli risk becomes, if they choose to go back to 5/1948 and Israel's original borders, such arbitrators could start at that population point. And say the Pals deserve 2/3 of 1948 Israel. While Israel retains 1/3 or 1948 Israel and has zero land claims in Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, or the Golan heights. Which is actually better than the deal the former Apartheid Government of South Africa got.

But IMHO, The UN gave Israel a very strong message on 11/20/2011, in saying they will not tolerate Israel refusal to have a settlement freeze, nor will they tolerate Israel refusing to fairly settle with the Palestinian people. ( And yes we can expect EK, JediY, and other pro-Israel fan clubbers to instead blame the stalling on only the Palestinians. But if we look at the 11/29/2012 UN vote, only 9 out of 193 nations were willing to vote Israel's way. As at least 139 nations refused to believe in that Israeli propaganda anymore. )
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,462
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The right of return will never happen. I don't think there will ever be a sizable amount of land given to the Palestinians. They should get something though since the alternative is for them to be absorbed by other countries. The problem is that the Arabs don't like the Palestinians. Just look at how they're treated in Jordan. They just use them as an excuse to blame Israel for their problems and divert from their domestic problems.

I really don't understand why this is even given any attention. I mean I realize it's antisemitism but it's just so hypocritical to focus on the Palestinians while neglecting the countless other groups with no country. Especially considering that other groups didn't blow up airplanes and buses and focus on terrorism as their sole method of getting their way. The Palestinians are the world's worst negotiators.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,991
2
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Randomrouge, just to concentrate on one of your dubious statements, I do not agree with your assertion of, "The problem is that the Arabs don't like the Palestinians. Just look at how they're treated in Jordan."

(1) The bulk of the country of Jordon is in fact Palestinian. But still Jordain political stability depends on other Arab minorities that retain their equal human rights in that Jordanian coalition. And if Jordan were to assimilate too many Palestinian, it would destabilize the Political stability of Jordan. (2) When Israel forced out Palestinians that lived within its 1948 borders at the point of a gun, at least the Jordanians and Egyptians gave Palestinian refugees a place to stay and food aid. It simply and Arab tradition that still is retained by mid-east nations today. (3) But Arab nations, have all strongly said, on principle, that we refuse to assimilate pennyless Palestinian refugees, when its the Israel responsibility to make the Palestinians whole. Because Israel is where the Palestinians refugees came from and it is and always be an Israeli responsibly to grant them their human rights.
 

Screech

Golden Member
Oct 20, 2004
1,202
6
81
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In terms of saying the Palestinians simply don't deserve human right because of bad behavior, other may also say, since Israeli behavior post 1948 , that Israelis don't deserve anything either.

But still, this forum cannot control the international community, and if a mutually negotiated settlement between Israel and the Palestinian people is no longer possible, the world community may force binding third party arbitration to settle the issue. And it depends how far back such binding third party arbitrators wish. As the Israeli risk becomes, if they choose to go back to 5/1948 and Israel's original borders, such arbitrators could start at that population point. And say the Pals deserve 2/3 of 1948 Israel. While Israel retains 1/3 or 1948 Israel and has zero land claims in Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, or the Golan heights. Which is actually better than the deal the former Apartheid Government of South Africa got.

But IMHO, The UN gave Israel a very strong message on 11/20/2011, in saying they will not tolerate Israel refusal to have a settlement freeze, nor will they tolerate Israel refusing to fairly settle with the Palestinian people. ( And yes we can expect EK, JediY, and other pro-Israel fan clubbers to instead blame the stalling on only the Palestinians. But if we look at the 11/29/2012 UN vote, only 9 out of 193 nations were willing to vote Israel's way. As at least 139 nations refused to believe in that Israeli propaganda anymore. )
Third party arbitration being forced on a nuclear power by a bunch of countries who don't really care one way or another? yeah, sure.

Hopefully, though, the settlement building does stop.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,991
2
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Third party arbitration being forced on a nuclear power by a bunch of countries who don't really care one way or another? yeah, sure.

Hopefully, though, the settlement building does stop.
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Screech, how is your prediction working out for the nuclear armed nation of Pakistan? And their lack of immunity despite having nukes? While USA chances of winning in Afghanistan is now in St. Jude territory due solely to USA foreign policy policy stupidity.

At this point in time, the EU is still reluctant to impose economic sanctions against Israel, but if Israeli does not get real, The rest of the world and the EU may indeed decide economic sanctions against Israel is the only way forward. As for the USA, many in the USA realize that our AIPAC support of Israel is a growing liability to US foreign policy.
 

Screech

Golden Member
Oct 20, 2004
1,202
6
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Screech, how is your prediction working out for the nuclear armed nation of Pakistan? And their lack of immunity despite having nukes? While USA chances of winning in Afghanistan is now in St. Jude territory due solely to USA foreign policy policy stupidity.

At this point in time, the EU is still reluctant to impose economic sanctions against Israel, but if Israeli does not get real, The rest of the world and the EU may indeed decide economic sanctions against Israel is the only way forward. As for the USA, many in the USA realize that our AIPAC support of Israel is a growing liability to US foreign policy.
Pretty well, actually -- a great deal of the taliban hopped over the border into pakistan from afghanistan and yet we haven't invaded them (a nuclear power) while we went into afghanistan (not a nuclear power) without much more than a moment's notice. You will also notice that we haven't told pakistan that as of this moment, they will be giving up some of their country because, gosh darn it, they don't deserve to have it! -- which is basically what you are suggesting for 3rd party "arbitration" on israel. (although arguably that might not be a terrible idea on pakistan but that is another discussion......)

I do agree with most of the rest of what you posted, although I doubt we will sanction them, but I think the time to cut off weapons shipments/free money is long overdue (for everyone in that region).

edit: re pakistan: the other thing is above, with israel, i noted "countries that don't really care", which is basically everyone. We actually kinda give a shit with regards to how things are going in pakistan/afghanistan.

I have yet to see a country actually care about the palestinian people. I'm not saying that's a good thing. Just the way it is.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,650
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What an idiot you are in MHO, RightisWrong. As you blame only Iran for a problem that started in 1948. And continues to this day. Next you will tells us that Hamas in Gaza, which was a non-factor until 2005, is and was the root of all evil in ever since 1948.

And when Israeli bullshit got badly outvoted in the UN on 11/29/2012, it must be all Iran's fault. Or maybe its the fault of North Korea, or the Simians.
WTF are you talking about? Where did I even mention Iran?

My statement was that they both share the bulk of the history of that land and both claim that it is part of the heritage and that they both should be forced to and learn to govern it together.

If you interpret any of that as what you ranted about, you have the problem and not me. Your hatred for anything Israel is showing even more than usual.

If you'd like my opinion, I'll share it. I think that Israel, like the US, likes to play the victim role every chance that they get and love to show their might every chance as well. Both are more PR than substance and both are loved and hated for it. Neither is right in doing so and neither is wrong in taking advantage of it.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,947
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And when Israeli bullshit got badly outvoted in the UN on 11/29/2012, it must be all Iran's fault. Or maybe its the fault of North Korea, or the Simians.
Yawn, let me know when they get "badly outvoted" with an or else included. Until then its just bullshit that carries no real weight. The "or else" is ALWAYS the important part, the rest is just words on some assholes stationary.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,947
2,325
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In terms of saying the Palestinians simply don't deserve human right because of bad behavior, other may also say, since Israeli behavior post 1948 , that Israelis don't deserve anything either.
The "world" is free to take Israels "rights" away from them anytime they please. It will have to be done by force though, so whenever the rest of the world is willing to muster such force justice, in your eyes at least, will be served. I am sorry to tell you that until such a thing happens you will not find any justice that you are satisfied with. Life ain't always fair.
 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
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In terms of saying the Palestinians simply don't deserve human right because of bad behavior, other may also say, since Israeli behavior post 1948 , that Israelis don't deserve anything either.
You mean how Israel didn't start wars, but kicked the living shit out of the Arab countries attacking them? Hah.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,599
5
0
You mean how Israel didn't start wars, but kicked the living shit out of the Arab countries attacking them? Hah.
You are not allowed to point out what the Arabs and Palestinians did. Just the perceived wrongs of the Israelis.

People are not responsible for their behavior; the whiners are to always get their way.
 

tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
11,959
3,191
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What's really needed there is Agent Jay and a neuralizer.....a really really big neuralizer. He'd pop that thing off and put all of the Palestinians and Isreali's in a trance and tell them to play well together or they'd all not get any dinner before going to bed.
 

boxleitnerb

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2011
2,597
1
81
The problem is that in 1948 the new state of Israel was created on land where other people lived. How would you feel if the UN decided that in the stretch of land where you live, another group of people could live and migrate there by the millions?

That is the basic problem. On the one hand it is just that the Jewish people should get a state of their own at last. But on the other hand it is unjust to those affected (the Arabs living in Palestine) because they got outvoted by people not having to deal with the consequences (i.e. the majority of the UN).

I wouldn't call all the violence down there terrorism or call the Palestinians evil - it's just the ongoing resistance ever since 1948 against a foreign occupation of their land. But, and that is important too, that occupation has been "legalized" so to speak by the majority of the UN. Question is - in what reality would ANYONE accept such a ruling? That should be considered when pointing fingers.

I wouldn't divide the state at all, doesn't work. I would force both parties to live in one single state and put a shitload of money into improving living conditions in the West Bank and Gaza and any underdeveloped region. Prosperity goes a long way to pacifying a populace. I would form a national council with equal votes for Jews and Arabs regardless of population size that can decide on the larger matters.

Oh, and station 500k UN troops down there to keep the peace. Shoot to kill, no lame bullshit. Goes for both sides.
And because money is such a good incentive:
If they don't cooperate, attack each other or the UN troops -> total blockade. No outside communication, no fancy ipads, no mcdonalds, no more aid. Squeeze them both until it really hurts, they will come to their senses. They won't learn otherwise.
 
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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,599
5
0
The problem is that in 1948 the new state of Israel was created on land where other people lived. How would you feel if the UN decided that in the stretch of land where you live, another group of people could live and migrate there by the millions?

That is the basic problem. On the one hand it is just that the Jewish people should get a state of their own at last. But on the other hand it is unjust to those affected (the Arabs living in Palestine) because they got outvoted by people not having to deal with the consequences (i.e. the majority of the UN).

I wouldn't call all the violence down there terrorism or call the Palestinians evil - it's just the ongoing resistance ever since 1948 against a foreign occupation of their land. But, and that is important too, that occupation has been "legalized" so to speak by the majority of the UN. Question is - in what reality would ANYONE accept such a ruling? That should be considered when pointing fingers.

I wouldn't divide the state at all, doesn't work. I would force both parties to live in one single state and put a shitload of money into improving living conditions in the West Bank and Gaza and any underdeveloped region. Prosperity goes a long way to pacifying a populace. I would form a national council with equal votes for Jews and Arabs regardless of population size that can decide on the larger matters.

Oh, and station 500k UN troops down there to keep the peace. Shoot to kill, no lame bullshit. Goes for both sides.
And because money is such a good incentive:
If they don't cooperate, attack each other or the UN troops -> total blockade. No outside communication, no fancy ipads, no mcdonalds, no more aid. Squeeze them both until it really hurts, they will come to their senses. They won't learn otherwise.
  • Some of the land assigned to Israel was owned (purchased) before the UN showed up. Some land that assigned initially to the Arabs was also owned by Jews.
  • Remember, it was the Palestinians and Arabs that started the wars which have led to the Palestinians getting the shaft - first by the Arabs and then by Israel as a result of the Arab and Palestinian actions.
  • Who knows how much more pressure it will take to cause the Palestinians to come to their senses. At present; they only start to wake up if Israel has the Palestinian's back against the ropes (militarily) or starts to expand settlements. their leadership does not care about other inconveniences.
 

boxleitnerb

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2011
2,597
1
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  • Some of the land assigned to Israel was owned (purchased) before the UN showed up. Some land that assigned initially to the Arabs was also owned by Jews.
  • Remember, it was the Palestinians and Arabs that started the wars which have led to the Palestinians getting the shaft - first by the Arabs and then by Israel as a result of the Arab and Palestinian actions.
  • Who knows how much more pressure it will take to cause the Palestinians to come to their senses. At present; they only start to wake up if Israel has the Palestinian's back against the ropes (militarily) or starts to expand settlements. their leadership does not care about other inconveniences.
If the UN votes on something like this and neglects Arab rights, they can surely "cancel" previous Jewish land ownership as well. You cannot have it both ways. Clean slate for both parties, so to speak.

What you simply call war I would call a resistance movement that escalated into a war. It's not like they just wanted to kill Jews, they wanted to kill the people who (by authority of the UN vote) took over their land. War, as bad as it is, can have legitimate reasons, and in my opinion, they had one. Cause and effect.

Why don't you include Israel in your call to come to their senses? Violence isn't helping changing anything. But taking even more land illegally by expanding settlements isn't either. Please at least try to be objective and not one-sided. If you poke the bear (taking more and more land, treating the people badly), it will bite (fight back). Then don't complain afterwards - just stop poking the bear.

What do you expect from an oppressed people that basically lives in a crowded ghetto? Look at how small the Gaza strip is! Israel controls most of their borders, their tax payments, water, electricity, goods. I would rather be in prison than down there.
It's easy to judge from heated homes in safety and prosperity with freedom and no restrictions...
 
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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,599
5
0
If the UN votes on something like this and neglects Arab rights, they can surely "cancel" previous Jewish land ownership as well. You cannot have it both ways. Clean slate for both parties, so to speak.
The Palestinians were assigned land also. They and the Arabs rather than settling to the partition, decided that wanted it all. It was a chance that was taken, the lost the roll of the dice

What you simply call war I would call a resistance movement that escalated into a war. It's not like they just wanted to kill Jews, they wanted to kill the people who (by authority of the UN vote) took over their land. War, as bad as it is, can have legitimate reasons, and in my opinion, they had one. Cause and effect.they wanted it all and lsot the war. Then repeat and rinse

Why don't you include Israel in your call to come to their senses? Violence isn't helping changing anything. But taking even more land illegally by expanding settlements isn't either. Please at least try to be objective and not one-sided.
Israel is the one that is continually being attack by the Arabs and Palestinians. Every time a truce/peace has been requested, the Arabs/Palestinians find a way to agree for a few years and then start up attacking Israel. Up until a month ago; Israel was being attacked continually from Gaza and they also have Hezbollah on the north. It has taken the UN to stop attacks from Lebanon and only the last series of air attacks by Israel have caused Hamas to stop from Gaza. That stoppage was probably caused by the threat of ground forces staging to sweep into Gaza.

So while Israel may need to come to her senses; the Palestinians have been the one to continually attack Israel since '48


What do you expect from an oppressed people that basically lives in a crowded ghetto? Look at how small the Gaza strip is! Israel controls most of their borders, their tax payments, water, electricity, goods. I would rather be in prison than down there.
It's easy to judge from heated homes in safety and prosperity with freedom and no restrictions...
Remember that the "ghetto" of Gaza was created by Egypt, not Israel.
The Palestinians now while under Israeli control are in much better shape than what Egypt had left them at. And Egypt controls access to Gaza also; they refuse to swing open the gates. Neither Egypt of Jordan want the Palestinians to have access to their lands. For Jordan, it is a well deserved paranoia.
 

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