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How will the necons sell the war the war with Iran

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,991
2
0
The Seymour Hersh article in the New Yorker confirms what many have long feared. That this latest Israelie incursion into Lebanon was just a dry run for the next Bush Cheney neocon target which is Iran. Nor is a true neocon deterred by failure---as that delicious dish of Iraq stew has now soured and spoiled--its clearly time to prepare a new meal for their ever hungry belly---and to put added backbone into their somewhat cowed front man Bush---those in the background keep whispering that Bush will be a failed President if he does not dispose of Iran before his term ends. A brillant strategy when you think of it---when one bungles badly in Iraq and is thought as a presently failed President---the vindication of future historians upgrading Bush to visionary status is the only hope left.---but also carries the risk of elevating Bush to the worst President in history and the first in history to give a command performance at the Hague.

In terms of selling the Iran war in the same way they sold the Iraq war---I strongly doubt that would be a viable option---the US public is now sceptical, the congress may be more reluctant, and the UN would almost certainly not permit it---not to mention the fact that the USA has already bit off more than it can chew in Iraq---and now even a lone standing super power finds its military stretched to a breaking point.---but an upcoming election and a 33% approval rating for the GOP's standard bearer adds a now or never urgency
to the 90% initial apporval ratings both Bush's had early on in their wars.

So I am suggesting that what we will see is the favorite trick of the tyrant---a staged provication similar to what Hitler used to justify his invasion of Poland---as a contigent of German troops dressed in Polish uniforms took over a German radio station---it may not of fooled the British and French---but it rallied the German people four square behind Hitler---and they only learned the truth after a bloody war that led them into diaster and ruin. Given that a similar provacation is the only way I can conceive of that will allow the neocons to dupe us in the USA into a war with Iran---I write this post as a warning and as food for thought.
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,952
31
91
Wow you figured it out. I'm surprised the black helicopters are not already circling. Or are they?
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,183
60
91
We are already at war with Iran. We are fighting terrorists with IED's in Iraq with parts that come from Iran. We have had incursions coming accross the border in Iran. Iran is a country full of liars who would love to cut off our heads, and smile while they are doing it. You can not trust anything that the leaders of Iran say. We should have destroyed their country when they attacked our embassy, but Carter was a coward and not a commander-in-chief.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,583
430
126
I have this habit of immediately discounting anyone who uses the word "neocon" seriously.

You're not helping to dissuade that rule of thumb.
 

db

Lifer
Dec 6, 1999
10,253
267
126
Something like 23% of any population is crazy enough to march over a cliff. Keep beating the drums of fear, have the corporate media repeat your lies, and wahlah: we're in the war and it's too late. Nothing left to do now except stand behind our leaders.
Seems simple enough.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,614
3,407
126
I try to keep an open mind on the subject of Iran. Is it possible that if one Iranian is willing to strap on a bomb and blow himself up in a country where that sort of thing is popular and encouraged why would I not what to worry that if its leadership shows the same tendencies and pursue nuclear weapons that it would be something to be concerned about? Would it be smart to deal with this after they have such weapons or before. Perhaps we should make a rule, in a nuclear and WMD world that if you want to be a government you have to pass some sort of sanity test. I don't want nuclear weapon going off here or anywhere else just so somebody can go to heaven any more than I want to use them on anybody who looks cross-eyed. It is a complex and serious matter and complex and serious people should give this matter some attention, it seems to me. These, of course, in my opinion, would be people who don't already have all the answers.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
What worries me is the casual manner in which folks talk about GOING to war.. like it is a game or something... Folks die in War... we die they die lots of folks die..

The only way to win is not to play...

In our war rooms our troops are termed 'assets'... not people.. and the enemy are 'objectives' not people... and the babies here and there.. well they're 'collateral' and 'reasonable expected non combatant deaths' All this is insanity!

The only reason we talk about Iran is cuz for some dam reason we have our noses into their business.. don't we have enough to do right at home?

To those who haven't been to the theater of flying bullets and poison gas and other luxury substances.. This crap is real... death is final... yours and mine.. it is serious stuff this...
 

novon

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,711
0
0
LunarRay is right, this has become a fun discussion for some, thinking, theorizing, giving opinions, just like it's portrayed in the media, but the reality is bombing others and going to war is sick, and should not be so easily justifiable. I'm surprised more people aren't trying to figure out paths to peace.
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,503
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I try to keep an open mind on the subject of Iran. Is it possible that if one Iranian is willing to strap on a bomb and blow himself up in a country where that sort of thing is popular and encouraged why would I not what to worry that if its leadership shows the same tendencies and pursue nuclear weapons that it would be something to be concerned about? Would it be smart to deal with this after they have such weapons or before. Perhaps we should make a rule, in a nuclear and WMD world that if you want to be a government you have to pass some sort of sanity test. I don't want nuclear weapon going off here or anywhere else just so somebody can go to heaven any more than I want to use them on anybody who looks cross-eyed. It is a complex and serious matter and complex and serious people should give this matter some attention, it seems to me. These, of course, in my opinion, would be people who don't already have all the answers.
agreed
 

novon

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,711
0
0
Originally posted by: Frackal
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I try to keep an open mind on the subject of Iran. Is it possible that if one Iranian is willing to strap on a bomb and blow himself up in a country where that sort of thing is popular and encouraged why would I not what to worry that if its leadership shows the same tendencies and pursue nuclear weapons that it would be something to be concerned about? Would it be smart to deal with this after they have such weapons or before. Perhaps we should make a rule, in a nuclear and WMD world that if you want to be a government you have to pass some sort of sanity test. I don't want nuclear weapon going off here or anywhere else just so somebody can go to heaven any more than I want to use them on anybody who looks cross-eyed. It is a complex and serious matter and complex and serious people should give this matter some attention, it seems to me. These, of course, in my opinion, would be people who don't already have all the answers.
agreed
There hasn't been one Iranian suicide bomber. Ahmadinejad, based on his letter and recent interview with Wallace, does not come of as a lunatic, but a logical man that hold grudges. I think he's more concerned about finding a peaceful solution on the International stage than the Bush admin. I don't like the oppression that's going on within Iran though, there is a lot of hypocracy. But as far as nuclear weapons being a threat, sounds like you've been listening to the Admin's propoganda.

 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,991
2
0
I somewhat thank you Lunar Ray for being the first to honestly address this thread,

In our current war with Iraq---the American people and the world agreed to let GWB go to war on fears and hype----and hype that has proved 100% untrue with the lens of 20 20 hindsight. And 3.6 years later we are still at war, no progress has been made, and the lives of the average Iraqi is now infinitely worse than under Saddam.

And now we get almost uncontravertable evidence from a highly respected journalist with sources in spades---that the next target will be Iran---and soon.

The question is what we the American people can do to prevent this war---or will we just wake up some morning and find GWB has already taken us to war with Iran---and we just have no remaining choice but to hope this one is not the same losing fiasco the Iraq war was?---or that like the Germans and Japanese---that we will finally discover we followed a madman like Tojo or Hiltler---who led our proud nation to utter ruin?

After all, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.---and we live in times that try men's souls.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,614
3,407
126
Originally posted by: novon
Originally posted by: Frackal
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I try to keep an open mind on the subject of Iran. Is it possible that if one Iranian is willing to strap on a bomb and blow himself up in a country where that sort of thing is popular and encouraged why would I not what to worry that if its leadership shows the same tendencies and pursue nuclear weapons that it would be something to be concerned about? Would it be smart to deal with this after they have such weapons or before. Perhaps we should make a rule, in a nuclear and WMD world that if you want to be a government you have to pass some sort of sanity test. I don't want nuclear weapon going off here or anywhere else just so somebody can go to heaven any more than I want to use them on anybody who looks cross-eyed. It is a complex and serious matter and complex and serious people should give this matter some attention, it seems to me. These, of course, in my opinion, would be people who don't already have all the answers.
agreed
There hasn't been one Iranian suicide bomber. Ahmadinejad, based on his letter and recent interview with Wallace, does not come of as a lunatic, but a logical man that hold grudges. I think he's more concerned about finding a peaceful solution on the International stage than the Bush admin. I don't like the oppression that's going on within Iran though, there is a lot of hypocracy. But as far as nuclear weapons being a threat, sounds like you've been listening to the Admin's propoganda.
Of course I have. You must have too to think you know enough about it to recognize it in me. But I also happen to believe that there is something called real insanity and I do not want the really insane to have nuclear weapons. The only real debate, it seems to me is who is really insane. I also believe the insane can be quite clever and lie about who they really are. I think Bush and his policies have and will continue to be a total disaster but just because he seems to have the hots for Iran doesn't make Iran an angel. Not everybody thinks like LunarRay, that live is valuable and death final, and these things are serious. Lots of people are so emotionally dead as to be able to live only in their heads were visions of virgins dance on their dicks.

I believe the right to life is inalienable and that if the only way to stop somebody from taking the life of another is to do the same to them, then Amen. Nuclear weapons in the hands of the insane can kill millions.

On the other hand, I understand that what you really meant to say was that I have been influenced by Admin propaganda and this may in fact be true. I am not an Iranian or expert in Iranian affairs and I may have had my fears jerked. As a result I may have concerns that are being played on to start a war with Iran without any basis in reality. That is why I think serious people without bias need to think on this subject hard to give the world some sort of real understanding as to what Iran really is and whether all the radical crap we hear about is well founded. If they are a real threat they should be treated as one. If not why worry, no?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,614
3,407
126
Originally posted by: Lemon law
I somewhat thank you Lunar Ray for being the first to honestly address this thread,

In our current war with Iraq---the American people and the world agreed to let GWB go to war on fears and hype----and hype that has proved 100% untrue with the lens of 20 20 hindsight. And 3.6 years later we are still at war, no progress has been made, and the lives of the average Iraqi is now infinitely worse than under Saddam.

And now we get almost uncontravertable evidence from a highly respected journalist with sources in spades---that the next target will be Iran---and soon.

The question is what we the American people can do to prevent this war---or will we just wake up some morning and find GWB has already taken us to war with Iran---and we just have no remaining choice but to hope this one is not the same losing fiasco the Iraq war was?---or that like the Germans and Japanese---that we will finally discover we followed a madman like Tojo or Hiltler---who led our proud nation to utter ruin?

After all, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.---and we live in times that try men's souls.
I don't know. The very first poster called your conspiratorial theory tinfoil hat. The thought certainly crossed my mind that your responding to a knee jerk reaction from the left. I know you wouldn't consider that serious but I would. I think it's very important to know the motives of those to whom we listen. You can certainly see how nuts Bush is. How about S Hersh? I love what reaffirms my bias and that is, of course, the direction from which I will be suckered. Question everything, no? It's incontrovertible by the way.
 

straightalker

Senior member
Dec 21, 2005
515
0
0
Originally posted by: Lemon law
The Seymour Hersh article in the New Yorker confirms what many have long feared. That this latest Israelie incursion into Lebanon was just a dry run for the next Bush Cheney neocon target which is Iran. Nor is a true neocon deterred by failure---as that delicious dish of Iraq stew has now soured and spoiled--its clearly time to prepare a new meal for their ever hungry belly---and to put added backbone into their somewhat cowed front man Bush---those in the background keep whispering that Bush will be a failed President if he does not dispose of Iran before his term ends. A brillant strategy when you think of it---when one bungles badly in Iraq and is thought as a presently failed President---the vindication of future historians upgrading Bush to visionary status is the only hope left.---but also carries the risk of elevating Bush to the worst President in history and the first in history to give a command performance at the Hague.

In terms of selling the Iran war in the same way they sold the Iraq war---I strongly doubt that would be a viable option---the US public is now sceptical, the congress may be more reluctant, and the UN would almost certainly not permit it---not to mention the fact that the USA has already bit off more than it can chew in Iraq---and now even a lone standing super power finds its military stretched to a breaking point.---but an upcoming election and a 33% approval rating for the GOP's standard bearer adds a now or never urgency
to the 90% initial apporval ratings both Bush's had early on in their wars.

So I am suggesting that what we will see is the favorite trick of the tyrant---a staged provication similar to what Hitler used to justify his invasion of Poland---as a contigent of German troops dressed in Polish uniforms took over a German radio station---it may not of fooled the British and French---but it rallied the German people four square behind Hitler---and they only learned the truth after a bloody war that led them into diaster and ruin. Given that a similar provacation is the only way I can conceive of that will allow the neocons to dupe us in the USA into a war with Iran---I write this post as a warning and as food for thought.
Heehe. Hold your ground Lemon law. You are right on in your assessment of the potential future in occupied America. Ignore the moles.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,652
3,202
126
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I try to keep an open mind on the subject of Iran. Is it possible that if one Iranian is willing to strap on a bomb and blow himself up in a country where that sort of thing is popular and encouraged why would I not what to worry that if its leadership shows the same tendencies and pursue nuclear weapons that it would be something to be concerned about? Would it be smart to deal with this after they have such weapons or before. Perhaps we should make a rule, in a nuclear and WMD world that if you want to be a government you have to pass some sort of sanity test. I don't want nuclear weapon going off here or anywhere else just so somebody can go to heaven any more than I want to use them on anybody who looks cross-eyed. It is a complex and serious matter and complex and serious people should give this matter some attention, it seems to me. These, of course, in my opinion, would be people who don't already have all the answers.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

That is my exact argument. Although I've some to amend of my own.

Originally posted by: db
Keep beating the drums of fear
It's not like WE have to beat any drums of war. We just have to sit here and look pretty and smug when radical Islam knocks on our door again. They already claim their intentions, all we have to do to invite them - is to simply do nothing.

Originally posted by: LunarRay
The only way to win is not to play...
Yet this is not a game and we already lost with North Korea by doing nothing. They are a shining example for the rest of the world to follow to obtain nuclear weapons. We must demand beyond any doubt that the capitol of Hizbollah cannot produce a nuclear weapon while they are telling the UN to go f? themselves.

Otherwise the future shipments into Lebanon and the USA are not going to be conventional.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
1
76
It's either you confront them now, or you confront them later when they have nukes. You just have to choose.

In any case, Israel should confront the Iranians regardless of what happens in the US.
Jews are now facing a modern world Hitler, but this time they have weapons. I don't see any reason why they should agree to another holocaust. After all, Israel will not be a safer place when Iran has nukes.
This matter stands above any PC international relations and public opinions. Good international relations don't help you when a nuke goes off.

 

LumbergTech

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2005
3,624
1
0
Originally posted by: yllus
I have this habit of immediately discounting anyone who uses the word "neocon" seriously.

You're not helping to dissuade that rule of thumb.
it is a group of individuals with a clear agenda and they have posted it wide and far so lets not be dishonest
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,551
2
0
Originally posted by: yllus
I have this habit of immediately discounting anyone who uses the word "neocon" seriously.

You're not helping to dissuade that rule of thumb.
Sounds like you have two handfuls of thumbs.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,451
0
0
While Seymour Hersh does do some good reporting I wouldn't make too much of this. He has also stated in articles that we were getting ready to bomb Iran this summer and the summer before that. How there was a carrier task force en route(which turned out to be performing in some war games), how we have special forces on the ground in Iran mapping out targets.

He has a lot of high level contacts that feed him a lot of good info, but he also gets some bad info mixed in every once in a while.

Now, do I believe that the US had a major hand in the Israeli campaign? You bet I do.

Does this mean we are going to attack Iran anytime soon? No, not a chance.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Lemon law
I somewhat thank you Lunar Ray for being the first to honestly address this thread,

In our current war with Iraq---the American people and the world agreed to let GWB go to war on fears and hype----and hype that has proved 100% untrue with the lens of 20 20 hindsight. And 3.6 years later we are still at war, no progress has been made, and the lives of the average Iraqi is now infinitely worse than under Saddam.

And now we get almost uncontravertable evidence from a highly respected journalist with sources in spades---that the next target will be Iran---and soon.

The question is what we the American people can do to prevent this war---or will we just wake up some morning and find GWB has already taken us to war with Iran---and we just have no remaining choice but to hope this one is not the same losing fiasco the Iraq war was?---or that like the Germans and Japanese---that we will finally discover we followed a madman like Tojo or Hiltler---who led our proud nation to utter ruin?

After all, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.---and we live in times that try men's souls.
I don't know. The very first poster called your conspiratorial theory tinfoil hat. The thought certainly crossed my mind that your responding to a knee jerk reaction from the left. I know you wouldn't consider that serious but I would. I think it's very important to know the motives of those to whom we listen. You can certainly see how nuts Bush is. How about S Hersh? I love what reaffirms my bias and that is, of course, the direction from which I will be suckered. Question everything, no? It's incontrovertible by the way.
Indeed. Yet Seymour Hersh was the journalist that uncovered My Lai back in the day. And he was one of those that had the courage to help uncover Abu Grahib. He is unquestionably well connected and respected for his journalism, and he is not afraid to question the motives and agenda of those in power. I listen to what he has to say.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,991
2
0
Cheer up Sammy,

No one ever accused Israel of being a loved neighbor. Or of having good international relations.

As for Ahmaminejad, he is a populist and probably not a Hitler type---he will serve for a few years
and be replaced by someone else less nutty.

But the message is out loud and clear to any resource rich nation---join the nuclear club or you are vulnerable.
 

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