How to enable internal scaling in NVidia GPU?

[BernardP]

A question about internal resolution scaling with NVidia videocards and drivers

I am trying to fine-tune my parents' Dimension E521 (NVidia 6150 LE integrated graphics). The monitor is a 19-inch Dell 1907FPV with a 1280x1024 native resolution. Because this resolution produces too much small detail for their eyes, I set the resolution at 1024x768, which gives acceptable results, except for one thing:

The native 1280x1024 is a 5:4 ratio, while the 1024x768 is a 4:3 ratio. Consequently, everything on screen is slightly elongated vertically at 1024x768. Not the end of the world, but clearly noticeable.

So I tried setting a Custom Resolution in the NVidia Control Panel (previous-style 80-series driver). 1024x820 is the correct resolution to maintain a 5:4 ratio, and I successfully added it to available resolutions.

The problem is that when I try to apply this 1024x820 resolution, it doesn't work. Not only do objects on-screen remain elongated, but the Taskbar and Start buttons disappear somewhere "below" the visible part of the screen. I have searched on the Dell web site and found that the 1907FPV doesn't support 1024x820 or 1024x824 or 1024x816.

I am not interested in tinkering with larger icons and fonts at the native 1280x1024 resolution, as my previous experiments with these parameters have never been satisfactory: There are always things on-screen that persist in remaining too small. This is even more true in browsers, the main use of my parents' computer.

I have read that NVidia video cards and drivers support internal scaling. As I understand this, the 1024x820 resolution is processed in the video chip, and upscaled to 1280x1024 before being sent to the monitor. Thus the monitors receives a signal at its native and supported resolution but what is seen onscreen is seen as 1024x820 : No distortion, no black bars...Right?

Now, if only I could find out how to make this work. I have looked everywhere in the NVidia Control Panel and found only one setting that looks promising: Flat Screen Scaling Options, under Advanced Timings. The problem is that it is greyed out, so there is nothing I can try. I can see the same setting is also greyed out on my own computer with Nvidia 6150 integrated graphics (K8NGM2-FID), but I have a CRT.

Is there any way to access Flat Screen Scaling Options with the 61xx integrated graphics? Would this setting be accessible with a discrete video card? How can I make internal videocard scaling work?

Thanks for you comments.

 

[BassBomb]

use dvi and you will get those options

now, problem here is once you grab those options you will just be using less of your screen with same pixel pitch and black bars

so you won't see any improvement in the size of what you are going for

You can get used to the detail, I have VERY horrendous eyesight, yet I got used to mine (switching from a 1024x768 CRT)

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: BernardP
A question about internal resolution scaling with NVidia videocards and drivers

I am trying to fine-tune my parents' Dimension E521 (NVidia 6150 LE integrated graphics). The monitor is a 19-inch Dell 1907FPV with a 1280x1024 native resolution. Because this resolution produces too much small detail for their eyes, I set the resolution at 1024x768, which gives acceptable results, except for one thing:

The native 1280x1024 is a 5:4 ratio, while the 1024x768 is a 4:3 ratio. Consequently, everything on screen is slightly elongated vertically at 1024x768. Not the end of the world, but clearly noticeable.

So I tried setting a Custom Resolution in the NVidia Control Panel (previous-style 80-series driver). 1024x820 is the correct resolution to maintain a 5:4 ratio, and I successfully added it to available resolutions.

The problem is that when I try to apply this 1024x820 resolution, it doesn't work. Not only do objects on-screen remain elongated, but the Taskbar and Start buttons disappear somewhere "below" the visible part of the screen. I have searched on the Dell web site and found that the 1907FPV doesn't support 1024x820 or 1024x824 or 1024x816.

I am not interested in tinkering with larger icons and fonts at the native 1280x1024 resolution, as my previous experiments with these parameters have never been satisfactory: There are always things on-screen that persist in remaining too small. This is even more true in browsers, the main use of my parents' computer.

I have read that NVidia video cards and drivers support internal scaling. As I understand this, the 1024x820 resolution is processed in the video chip, and upscaled to 1280x1024 before being sent to the monitor. Thus the monitors receives a signal at its native and supported resolution but what is seen onscreen is seen as 1024x820 : No distortion, no black bars...Right?

Wrong...there is no magical scaling method. The video card must still interpolate or do whatever it needs to to achieve the native resolution. The only difference will be in quality of scaling, and the advantage in that could go either way. You'd be right that you're maintaining the aspect ratio, but you'll still get lots of distortion. The minimal distortion would be if the lower resolution was a multiple of the higher resolution but that's not the case for 1024x820 and 1280x1024.

Now, if only I could find out how to make this work. I have looked everywhere in the NVidia Control Panel and found only one setting that looks promising: Flat Screen Scaling Options, under Advanced Timings. The problem is that it is greyed out, so there is nothing I can try. I can see the same setting is also greyed out on my own computer with Nvidia 6150 integrated graphics (K8NGM2-FID), but I have a CRT.

Is there any way to access Flat Screen Scaling Options with the 61xx integrated graphics? Would this setting be accessible with a discrete video card? How can I make internal videocard scaling work?

Thanks for you comments.

You have to have an LCD connected to get the options to show up.

 

[BernardP]

I have a CRT, so that's why I don't see the option. My parents have a LCD...But...there is no DVI output on the Dell E521 computer (built last Novenber :disgust: ), so the LCD is connected with a VGA cable. So this is why the scaling is not available?

I will try to understand better as I will also have to scale when I get a LCD monitor for myself...This year I promise...Only waiting for the $500 / 24-inch / S-IPS winning combination

xtknight and bassBomb, I am a bit confused. I don't want to use less of the screen. I don't want black bars. I want the screen to display an apparent 1024x820 resolution, completely filling a 5:4 screen, even though the card is sending a 1280x1024 signal. When I wrote about distortion, I meant "no vertical elongation" and was not referring to loss of picture quality related to not using native resolution.

Let's assume I have a DVI connection. Would I be able to do what I just described in the preceding paragraph?

 

[BassBomb]

I honstely have no clue, the options ive seen in flat panel setting ALLOW black bars!

I dont have DVI so i cannot comment, you cant use those settings unless you have dvi

 

[xtknight]

sorry double post

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: BernardP
I have a CRT, so that's why I don't see the option. My parents have a LCD...But...there is no DVI output on the Dell E521 computer (built last Novenber :disgust: ), so the LCD is connected with a VGA cable. So this is why the scaling is not available?

I really am not sure. AFAIK it works on both VGA on DVI for me. BassBomb must mean you can't use those unless you have an LCD. On VGA there's really no reason why they wouldn't be available.

I will try to understand better as I will also have to scale when I get a LCD monitor for myself...This year I promise...Only waiting for the $500 / 24-inch / S-IPS winning combination

Hmmm..me too.

xtknight and bassBomb, I am a bit confused. I don't want to use less of the screen. I don't want black bars. I want the screen to display an apparent 1024x820 resolution, completely filling a 5:4 screen, even though the card is sending a 1280x1024 signal. When I wrote about distortion, I meant "no vertical elongation" and was not referring to loss of picture quality related to not using native resolution.

Let's assume I have a DVI connection. Would I be able to do what I just described in the preceding paragraph?

Actually, I'm not sure. 1024x820 is not perfectly 5:4 and being digital, GPUs/LCDs are picky about these things. I'm sure the distortion wouldn't be that bad (it's a fraction of a pixel off), but consider using 960x768, a perfect 5:4.

 

[BernardP]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Actually, I'm not sure. 1024x820 is not perfectly 5:4 and being digital, GPUs/LCDs are picky about these things. I'm sure the distortion wouldn't be that bad (it's a fraction of a pixel off), but consider using 960x768, a perfect 5:4.

Yes, it should be 1024x819.2. I had not considered this might mess everything. I am certainly going to give a try to 960x768 next time I visit my parents.

As for my other questions, I guess I will have to experiment with this myself on my own (eventual) DVI-connected LCD.

Thanks for the input.

 

[BassBomb]

please note im speaking in the old control panel way for nVidia (dont understand the new one)

Well heres how my situation is, on my Samsung 915N (no DVI) i could not get those settings

but what i did have was Display Mode Timing, and that allowed me to run 1280x960 with a black bar on top and bottom, didn't really test what the others did

AutoDetect
General Timing Formula GTF
Discrete Monitor Timing DMT
Coordinated Video Timing CVT (not Continuously Variable Transmission )
Fixed Aspect Ratio Timing (which I used)

Tried to use RivaTuner to unlock all the options beacuse I wanted the Digital Flat Panel Settings <-- Thats what I am referring to! I unlocked it with Riva but I was not allowed to do anything with it.

In my cousins Dell 1905 He was able to use those settings when he connected it through DVI on his 7600GT.

http://www.tweakguides.com/NVFORCE_6.html

Quoted from tweakguides.net:
Digital Flat Panel Settings

If you have a digital flat panel - most commonly an LCD display - connected via a digital connection like DVI then this section allows you to determine how various resolutions appear on your screen. Basically since an LCD display consists of a fixed number of separate pixels, it has a 'native' resolution at which images display at their sharpest. This native resolution (e.g. 1280x1024) is the number of pixels in width x number of pixels high in the panel, and any time your software resolution is different to this native resolution the LCD panel will do one of the following depending on your choice:

Display Adapter Scaling - The scaling unit on your graphics card will rescale the image before it reaches your monitor. If you have a high-end graphics card and a relatively middle-to-low end monitor, this option results in the best image quality and is the one most recommended.
Centered Output - The image isn't scaled at all, but instead your monitor will run at its maximum resolution and the image will display in the center of your monitor. This may result in a black border around the sides of the image.
Monitor Scaling - If you have a high-end monitor, try this form of scaling versus the Display Adapter Scaling option above to see which is best. Otherwise usually the scalers in monitors are not as good as those on high end graphics hardware.
Fixed Aspect Ratio Scaling - Similar to Centered Output scaling, this option will maintain the original aspect ratio of the chosen resolution and display it with black bars to the sides/above/below the on-screen image.

Switching between these modes will not damage your LCD panel, so try them all out and see which suits you best. Display Adapter Scaling should be best for most people. Remember to also use ClearType to help smooth out text in scaled images for best results.

If you guys are referring to some settings that are there in the New Control Panel, I won't know because I can't stand the new one :S


EDIT -> So I just went in and fooled around in the settings for the scaling in the custom timings like you were saying. I could not get any to work which leads me to believe you wont be able to w/o DVI. But for why yours is grayed out might be that your RAMDAC cannot handle things like that, but I am not sure.

 

[nullpointerus]

If poor eyesight is the problem, increasing the font size might help. You can try either the large fonts in the Appearances tab of Display Properties, or go into the Advanced Settings dialog and increase the Font DPI setting to something like 110 or 120.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: nullpointerus
If poor eyesight is the problem, increasing the font size might help. You can try either the large fonts in the Appearances tab of Display Properties, or go into the Advanced Settings dialog and increase the Font DPI setting to something like 110 or 120.

Originally posted by: BernardP
I am not interested in tinkering with larger icons and fonts at the native 1280x1024 resolution, as my previous experiments with these parameters have never been satisfactory: There are always things on-screen that persist in remaining too small. This is even more true in browsers, the main use of my parents' computer.

And he is right. Scaling in XP is sketchy.

 

[BernardP]

xtknight...This one is over the fence!

BassBomb...Thanks again. Nice link too.

 

[BernardP]

OK, I went to my parents' and tried 960x768 as suggested by xtknight.

Good news, It works. No picture elongation, no black bars.

Bad news, even with Clear Type, the picture quality is markedly lower at 960x768 compared to 1024x768. The text is not crisp and there are little color splotches over the letters. Images show noticeable stairstepping.

Between the two, my father prefers having clear and crisp text and images, even if it means living with some vertical picture elongation.

I have learned from this