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Question How to determine bona fide NVMe M.2 SSDs?

AntiHypocrite

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Dec 20, 2015
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Until roughly a month ago, I thought that SATA SSDs were the ultimate data storage devices. We've been Mac users for over a decade and, consequently, our primary machines are two MacBook Pros, which we've been using for years with no complaints. During the lockdown, however, we decided that we would endeavor to convert our modestly large audio and video collection to digital files for a "digital jukebox." Among some of these digital files are high-resolution audio files that can be quite large (some being over 700MB per file). Anyway, we've found that this project has put us somewhere we've never been before: we now have to archive a lot of data to keep our system data storage drives from filling up.

As some of our audio discs are in old formats, we were recently advised to employ software that only runs on PCs. As money is tight these days, we would like to make use of an HP ProBook 440 G8 that my wife sometimes uses for work purposes. This laptop PC has (1) USB-C port and (3) USB 3.2 Gen 1 ports on it...but the part that took me by surprise was what I found when I opened it up...In short, it had no HDD or SSD inside of it and, after doing some reading, I found out that the system storage was handled by a 22mm x 80mm PCB called an "PCIe NVMe m.2 2280 SSD."

Obviously, none of this comes as a surprise to most up-to-date PC people, but I wanted you to know our background as a point of reference for my silly questions.

As I've been reading, I've noticed that "modern" PC users seem to often refer to employing two separate storage devices in their systems. Of course, we, too, employ more than one drive, but the "secondary" drive, in our case, is mostly for archive storage purposes. The HP laptop that I just described presently has a small 256GB NVMe S.2 M.2 2280 SSD installed, but, considering that we're now filling up much larger drives, we've been researching 2TB NVMe SSDs for this laptop. Well, my personal research has illuminated the fact that many of the big name brands who market this type of NVMe SSD have recently been doing what is most often described as a "bait and switch," involving the use of inferior components being installed on their NVMe SSDs without the customer's knowledge. As this practice has been employed by most of the big names in the NVMe SSD world, including Samsung, I was wondering if anyone knows of a way to verify if the SSDs one purchases actually have the proper components installed? I mean, is this something that only occurred during a certain period of time? Perhaps involving only certain models? I don't mean to state the obvious, but I'd really hate to have done all of this reading/research predicated on electronics that aren't sold as advertised and/or tested.

In addition to the question about verifying "valid" NVMe drives, I'd also like to know if I'm missing something when it comes to employing more than one storage drive type with a PC. Once again, we've been Mac OS X users for over a decade, so please bear that in mind...but is there a way to actually operate a PC via an external SSD? If this is the case, perhaps we should be looking at external USB-C SSDs and moving away from questionable (and expensive) NVMe SSDs?

Thank you kindly for your time
 

Tech Junky

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OK....

M2 is the connector

SATA is the speed @ 600MB/s
PCIE/NVME is the speed at 3000MB/s+ (gen3 = 3000-3500MB/s) / Gen4 up to 7500MB/s)

So, which to go with depends on the host / PC and which gen the slot is that the drive slides into.

Some laptops provide dual M2 slots. If your HP does then you can put 2 drives into it. I have a Clevo with Intel 12700H in it and have 2 slots. 1 of them is Gen3 and the other is Gen4. I put the OS on Gen4 and use Gen3 for storage.

I limit the OS to 100GB and then use the rest to store things. Also, if Windows gets jacked up it's easy to blow away and refresh w/o impacting data.

If you only have a single slot then going 2TB or more is your only option. M2 drives to come in sizes up to 8TB but, those are $1000-$1200. 4TB drives ~$400...which is lower than I recall in recent research but, google's showing a couple of results in that range.

Now, the question is.... do you need all of this at your fingertips or could you store them on a NAS on the network instead?

If it's YES then that's going to be cheaper when it comes to the size of drives for storage. You can vet 18TB drives for ~$300.

When it comes to C enclosures that's an option as well. You could pop in different drives as needed or add additional drives as needed as well. There are enclosures for 3.5/2.5/M2 for single or multiple dives. Cheaper than a NAS but, you keep them local to the PC via the cord.
 
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AntiHypocrite

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@Tech Junky : I appreciate the kind and informative response. My reading is telling me that the Gen 4 NVMe SSDs often have heating issues, especially inside of a very tight laptop -- like the HP ProBook 440 G8 I mentioned -- so I've been focusing on reputable Gen 3 NVMe SSDs...and, as you surmised, we're looking at 2TB as a minimum for our purposes.

Another factor that's proved to be a challenge is the fact that the single "M2 slot" on this HP's motherboard doesn't seem to have the physical clearance necessary to accommodate double-sided NVMe SSDs, which takes some 2TB brands/models, like the Corsair Force MP510 (with its very high TBW spec), out of the running. I've taken the factory-installed 256GB NVMe SSD out of the HP laptop in question and have verified that it has components on only one side.

Do you happen to have any insights into how one might identify an NVMe SSD that's been "downgraded" via the bait and switch I've been reading about?

Once again, thank you for your time
 

VirtualLarry

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If you're planning on re-porpousing a laptop as archival storage device, and all it has is a PCI-E M.2 slot, so now you're looking at the biggest, most expensive type of storage that you can get. Worse yet, there no redundancy, and a laptop (can be) relatively fragile.

1) Get a NAS
2) Get a pair of like, high-capacity desktop 3.5" HDDs.
3) Install HDDs into NAS, initialize / format NAS
4) Profit???!

5) Set up all your PCs (and Macs) on the LAN to backup to the NAS. Profit???! some more...
 
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Tech Junky

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@AntiHypocrite

SS / DS drives typically fit in most devices. It's rare that they don't.

As to heat.... Any NVME drive is going to have higher temps because of the compact nature and the controller. It's only something to think about if you're constantly moving data over long durations of time. Normal operating temps on Gen3 for me are ~30C and my gen4 is usually at ~40C.

They both get hot though when I'm doing bulk moves / copies.

The whole bait and switch thing is a PITA but, in general if you stick with reputable brands it's less of an issue. There's tons of debate on who did what and the impact on the drive performance. I have a handful of these things in use and haven't had any issues with them. I'm using 2 x SN850's / PNY CS3030 / Digital SSD - 2xBPX Pro / Samsung PM981

I tested another PNY CS3140 but, my testing wasn't quite right with the app I was using and the drive was probably fine. The app seems to be bottlenecked beyond a certain speed and required using a different command line to test beyond that cap in Linux.
 
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AntiHypocrite

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If you're planning on re-porpousing a laptop as archival storage device, and all it has is a PCI-E M.2 slot, so now you're looking at the biggest, most expensive type of storage that you can get. Worse yet, there no redundancy, and a laptop (can be) relatively fragile.

1) Get a NAS
2) Get a pair of like, high-capacity desktop 3.5" HDDs.
3) Install HDDs into NAS, initialize / format NAS
4) Profit???!

5) Set up all your PCs (and Macs) on the LAN to backup to the NAS. Profit???! some more...

This is great advice, but the laptop in question will be used to perform certain functions that can only be accomplished via a PC. In other words, we can't get the same legacy utilities for Mac OS X that we can for a PC; hence, the reason we need a PC.

I understand that we can always simply archive data via an NAS device -- with high capacity HDDs or SSDs -- but I'm not sure what you mean by "no redundancy"? I'd also like to be clear about the fact that we don't have a lot funds to work with in this regard, so building a proper NAS or a nice PC system is not really in the cards right now.

Thank you for your time
 

Tech Junky

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@AntiHypocrite The no redundancy is referring to the NAS with more than a single disk. Make it work with what you have. Another option is a DAS which is basically a bigger enclosure where you can put disks and connect over USB.

On the cheaper side though you can get a SATA / USB cable and a 18TB drive and leave it sitting somewhere near the laptop.

I use a starltech cable for when I want to manipulate drives outside of an OS / case. They're built well and handle everything but an M2 drive. $50

There are cheaper cables / docks though but, ST is reliable. I have another one that's USB3 that I've used for at least a decade w/ no issues. Moving to the USB-C allows for messing with faster SSD's and C is convenient for not need to use an adapter on the end of the cable.

https://www.amazon.com/Dual-Bay-Lay-Flat-External-Tool-Free-Installation/dp/B08GC8V5MM/ - $130

This allows you to put 2 x M2 drives inside if you needed to expand on the HP

4 drives - https://www.amazon.com/MAIWO-Tool-Free-Enclosure-duplicator-Function/dp/B08LVKLJ2Y/
 
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AntiHypocrite

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@AntiHypocrite The no redundancy is referring to the NAS with more than a single disk. Make it work with what you have. Another option is a DAS which is basically a bigger enclosure where you can put disks and connect over USB.

On the cheaper side though you can get a SATA / USB cable and a 18TB drive and leave it sitting somewhere near the laptop.

I use a starltech cable for when I want to manipulate drives outside of an OS / case. They're built well and handle everything but an M2 drive. $50

There are cheaper cables / docks though but, ST is reliable. I have another one that's USB3 that I've used for at least a decade w/ no issues. Moving to the USB-C allows for messing with faster SSD's and C is convenient for not need to use an adapter on the end of the cable.

https://www.amazon.com/Dual-Bay-Lay-Flat-External-Tool-Free-Installation/dp/B08GC8V5MM/ - $130

This allows you to put 2 x M2 drives inside if you needed to expand on the HP

4 drives - https://www.amazon.com/MAIWO-Tool-Free-Enclosure-duplicator-Function/dp/B08LVKLJ2Y/
Well, if nothing else, I'm certainly learning a lot on this thread. :) We actually own a Startech "docking station" that allows four 3.25" SATA HDDs to be docked at once. The Mrs has (2) 2TB HHDs inserted into that docking station and, yep, they're both completely full of archived data. It's really cool to discover that there are similar docking stations and enclosures that can accommodate M.2 2280 NVMe SSD cards.

By the way, we have a Seagate "dock" that's similar to your Startech cable in as much as it accommodates a single (1) 2.5" SATA SSD. We also own an OWC Drive Dock that will accept either (2) 3.25" SATA HDDs or (2) 2.5" SATA SSDs at once. The cool thing about both of the devices I just described is the fact that both of them operate via the Thundberbolt bus on both of our MacBook Pros. I'm sure that it's perfectly clear, by now, but we're pretty far behind the times in CompuWorld, but I've been pretty amazed with the transfer speeds I've experienced via the Thunderbolt bus, nevertheless.

Do you think that we can realistically expect the same kind of transfer speeds over a PC's USB-C bus?
 
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Tech Junky

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It will be a bit slower as it's only 10gbps which is about 1/2-1/3 of TB.

One option is upgrading the HDD's in the existing dock and then copying the contents to the new drive/s. Picking up an 18TB drive and popping it into one slot and copying would be more economical. Reusing the 2TB drives for something else then becomes an option.

If you want the speed going SSD over HDD is an option. 8TB SSD ~$600 or 4TB SSD ~$400. The SATA SSDs are 1/5 the speed of a basic NVME though there are slower NVME options and SATA M2 which would be the same speed.

Speed vs capacity

Maybe pairing the 18TB with the existing 2TB for more frequently used files would work well too. You can multiply the speed of spinners tough through Raid which can be done by the OS. I have my "NAS" setup in my DIY PC and w/ 2 pairs in a Raid 10 I get 400MB/s+ and since I have 5 drives in it right now adding a 6th would bump it to SSD speeds at 600MB/s but, the 5th drive is an active spare in case one fails.

I just setup the raid using Linux w/ MDADM and didn't bother with any special controllers or cables because it's not going to bring any more speed and the complexity isn't needed. If I need more SATA ports I can add 6 with a HBA for $50. I'm using the same PC though as an OTA DVR through Plex and also as a router / firewall / wifi / switch / etc. My goal was to collapse several devices into a single box and cut the power cords down to a single outlet.

There are plenty of options when you expand into a full sized case in what you can do on a budget. TB is never budget friendly though but, if I wanted to add it to the setup I can get a card for ~$60 but, then you have to have stuff to attach to those ports and devices are still using the slower 27gbps controllers. USB4/TB4 controllers are coming though and should be out by the end of year allowing for even faster speeds over the ports.
 
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AntiHypocrite

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@Tech Junky : Do you happen to have any thoughts on the so-called "minicomputers" that I've seen advertised? I've often thought that our next Mac machine would probably be a Mac Mini, so I suppose that a small PC shouldn't be that much of a stretch, right?

I'll try to explain what my research into "modern" PCs, after such a long period in Mac World, has me thinking, and perhaps you can put me back in line. I'm thinking that a lot of PC gadgetry and its associated tech is aimed at game players, quite frankly...and, as I explained early on, we're far from being game players. We just want to move a lot of large files around and, in the end, we want to be able to access/playback our digital entertainment files in an efficient way. My reading is also telling me that the tech manufacturers, including the memory segment, are moving further and further away from durability with tech like QLC NAND. Why? Apparently, because they can make it transfer small files fast! Needless to say, this is really the opposite of what people who routinely move large files around need...but that seems to be the way of it, nevertheless.

I guess that I'm just an old vet venting here, but where's the incentive for someone who actually wants a PC to be both productive and reliable to spend a lot of hard-earned on something that actually "breaks down" when used that way? It's really pretty insane.
 
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Tech Junky

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Planned obsolescence is always part of the game with OEMs. It's gotten worse in the last 5 years though.

SFF / Mini PCs have their place though. I would use one as a router / DAS since you can attach things to them to expand what they're capable of vs putting it in the case. You could always take one and transplant it into a different case though to add more functionality to it. I haven't bought a system off the shelf / pre built since the 90's though. PII 266mhz system back then. I built my own after that one with an AMD cartridge type CPU and that lasted quite awhile to the extent I sold it to someone to keep using while upgrading to a laptop instead. Now I take barebones laptops and configure them with the HW upgrades myself and swap screens for better graphics. My latest was $1300 for the laptop itself w/o drives / wifi / ram / etc. and upgraded it to 4K120 ~$300 / WIFI AX $20 / RAM 32GB ~$100 and already has the drives for ~$250 for 2 x 1TB. When said and done the specs match a laptop costing twice as much if ordering it preconfigured. The one prior I picked up for $700 with a 9750H and did the same thing for a lot less as it was a 15.6" model that has more common screens the 4K60 I put in was $150.

Anyway... building a small PC as a NAS isn't a big deal or all that expensive. The SFF PC itself is ~$150-$200 / DAS box ~$175 so, for ~$350 + drives you have a NAS that blows away anything you would get off the shelf in terms of raw performance capability. Stepping up to a a more powerful setup w. a case to grow into is where it gets a bit more pricey. Cases I would normally be looking at in the $100-$150 range w/o anything in them. Then the system guts mobo / cpu / ram / fans / PSU / cooler - ~$850. So, it can easily jump to $1000 but, it's built like a tank and will last you as long as you want it to with proper maintenance.

You have more control over the durability when you build by component vs something you take out of a box and plug in. A little know how goes a long way. Just like on another thread somewhere else someone mentioned ATT planning on a 20GE service and how consumer routers wouldn't support those speeds or using a Cisco FW to protect the network wouldn't be fast enough, Funny thing is I could take my setup and add a NIC / SFP for ~$300 and be working in about 5 minutes where they would be spending thousands on a specialized device to get online.

You pay for convenience with a serious TAX to not have to MacGyver something together for 1/10 of the price. It's really not that difficult to do if you're motivated and can use google. Of course it helps that I deal with Networking for a living and have been tech inclined since the 90's back when 56K or ISDN lines were the fastest thing around on the consumer side. Even back then you could buy a modem w/ 2 ports on it to bond 2 56K lines together into a single data path.
 

Shmee

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I would agree that building a NAS would be a good idea. You could look into something like Truenas, and most fairly modern desktop systems would be perfectly capable, as far as CPU and motherboard are concerned. RAM can always be upgraded, which will help for cache, which can speed up transfers. The thing you would have to consider is the case and backplanes for the drives. You want to have a case with enough 5.25in ODD slots so that you can add in the backplane for drives the drives. This makes it super easy to add / swap drives, not needing to take the computer apart.

The Freenas I run has an X58 board and a 6 core Xeon X5660 and 48GB of DDR3. This is hardware from over 12 years ago! I can even run VMs using the Freenas webmin panel since I have plenty of RAM. I have 5x4TB HDDs and 4x2TB SATA SSDs for storage, plus a simple 128GB SSD used for the boot drive. You wouldn't need anything this fancy though, just a boot SSD, 2+ HDDs of choice for storage, and the internals for the computer + case and backplane for the drives. You could add more later.
 
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More than 4 petabytes endurance rating. I think the price is fair considering some 2TB TLC drives come with something like 600 terabytes endurance. You are getting 6 times more endurance for a lot less than 6 times the price.
 
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