How to destroy the educational system of America?

Mallow

Diamond Member
Jul 25, 2001
6,108
1
0
If you are an educator or know anything about education please read this. It is a very interesting read. My Mom is an educator as well as many of her friends. If you are not an educator and know nothing of the educational system please don't flame the post but do comment. Cliff's notes at bottom.


Written by J. Taylor, Superintendent of Schools for
the Lancaster County School District.


The Best Dentist---"Absolutely" the Best Dentist


My dentist is great! He sends me reminders so I don't forget
checkups. He uses the latest techniques based on research. He never
hurts me, and I've got all my teeth, so when I ran into him the other
day, I was eager to see if he'd heard about the new state program. I
knew he'd think it was great.

"Did you hear about the new state program to measure
effectiveness
of dentists with their young patients?" I said.

"No," he said. He didn't seem too thrilled. "How will they do
that?"

"It's quite simple," I said. "They will just count the number of
cavities each patient has at age 10, 14, and 18 and average that to
determine a dentist's rating. Dentists will be rated as Excellent,

Good, Average, Below average, and Unsatisfactory. That way parents
will know which are the best dentists. It will also encourage the less
effective dentists to get better," I said. "Poor dentists who don't
improve could lose their licenses to practice."

"That's terrible," he said.

"What? That's not a good attitude," I said. "Don't you think we
should try to improve children's dental health in this state?"

"Sure I do," he said, "but that's not a fair way to determine who
is practicing good dentistry."

"Why not?" I said. "It makes perfect sense to me."

"Well, it's so obvious," he said. "Don't you see that dentists
don't all work with the same clientele; so much depends on things we
can't control? For example," he said, "I work in a rural area with a
high percentage of patients from deprived homes, while some of my
colleagues work in upper middle class neighborhoods. Many of the
parents I work with don't bring their children to see me until there is some
kind of problem and I don't get to do much preventive work. Also," he
said, "many of the parents I serve let their kids eat way too much
candy from an early age, unlike more educated parents who understand the
relationship between sugar and decay. To top it all off," he added,
"so many of my clients have well water which is untreated and has no
fluoride in it. Do you have any idea how much difference early use of
fluoride can make?"

"It sounds like you're making excuses," I said. I couldn't
believe my dentist would be so defensive. He does a great job.

"I am not!" he said. "My best patients are as good as anyone's,
my work is as good as anyone's, but my average cavity count is going to
be higher than a lot of other dentists because I chose to work where I am
needed most."

"Don't' get touchy," I said.

"Touchy?" he said. His face had turned red and from the way he
was clenching and unclenching his jaws, I was afraid he was going to
damage his teeth. "Try furious. In a system like this, I will end up being
rated average, below average, or worse. My more educated patients who
see these ratings may believe this so-called rating actually is a
measure of my ability and proficiency as a dentist. They may leave me,
and I'll be left with only the neediest patients. And my cavity
average score will get even worse. On top of that, how will I attract good
dental hygienists and other excellent dentists to my practice if it is
labeled below average?"

"I think you are overreacting," I said. "'Complaining, excuse
making and stonewalling won't improve dental health'...I am quoting
from a leading member of the DOC," I noted.

"What's the DOC?" he asked.

"It's the Dental Oversight Committee," I said, "a group made up
of mostly laypersons to make sure dentistry in this state gets improved."

"Spare me," he said, "I can't believe this. Reasonable people
won't buy it," he said hopefully.

The program sounded reasonable to me, so I asked, "How else would
you measure good dentistry?"

"Come watch me work," he said. "Observe my processes."

"That's too complicated and time consuming," I said. "Cavities
are the bottom line, and you can't argue with the bottom line. It's an
absolute measure."

"That's what I'm afraid my parents and prospective patients will
think. This can't be happening," he said despairingly.

"Now, now," I said, "don't despair. The state will help you
some."

"How?" he said.

"If you're rated poorly, they'll send a dentist who is rated
excellent to help straighten you out," I said brightly.

"You mean," he said, "they'll send a dentist with a wealthy
clientele to show me how to work on severe juvenile dental problems
with which I have probably had much more experience? Big help."

"There you go again," I said. "You aren't acting professionally
at all."

"You don't get it," he said. "Doing this would be like grading
schools and teachers on an average score on a test of children's
progress without regard to influences outside the school, the home,
the community served and stuff like that. Why would they do something so
unfair to dentists? No one would ever think of doing that to schools."

I just shook my head sadly, but he had brightened.

"I'm going to write my representatives and senator," he said.
"I'll use the school analogy- surely they will see the point."

He walked off with that look of hope mixed with fear and
suppressed anger that I see in the mirror so often lately.


Cliff's Notes: Government has no clue when it comes to the educational system. Politicians in far away places are enacting rules and laws that are unjust and ridiculous; they will eventually destroy the educational system.
 

GoodToGo

Diamond Member
Jul 16, 2000
3,516
1
0
You dont have to do much to destroy the educational system in America, its already in the pits. Political correctness and religion are turning education into a joke.
 

Platypus

Lifer
Apr 26, 2001
31,046
321
136
Originally posted by: GoodToGo
You dont have to do much to destroy the educational system in America, its already in the pits. Political correctness and religion are turning education into a joke.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Originally posted by: GoodToGo
You dont have to do much to destroy the educational system in America, its already in the pits. Political correctness and religion are turning education into a joke.

50% agree. religion isn't doing anything to the education system, but PC, wacko enviromentalism, "new" math, and not applying phonics sure is.


<----agnostic, but doesn't agree that religion is doing any harm to public school systems.
 

Jzero

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
18,834
1
0
Cliff's Notes: Government has no clue when it comes to the educational system. Politicians in far away places are enacting rules and laws that are unjust and ridiculous; they will eventually destroy the educational system.

Nah...crappy parents are destroying the educational system.
 

GoodToGo

Diamond Member
Jul 16, 2000
3,516
1
0
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: GoodToGo
You dont have to do much to destroy the educational system in America, its already in the pits. Political correctness and religion are turning education into a joke.

50% agree. religion isn't doing anything to the education system, but PC, wacko enviromentalism, "new" math, and not applying phonics sure is.


<----agnostic, but doesn't agree that religion is doing any harm to public school systems.

I think you havent heard all the fracas about evolution.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,120
4,771
126
There is a reason why virtually every teacher in America is against the 'no student left behind' ideas. My wife is one of them.
Originally posted by: Citrix
I get it. but the analagy sucks.
I think it is a fairly accurate analogy based on experiences. Why do you think it sucks?
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: GoodToGo
You dont have to do much to destroy the educational system in America, its already in the pits. Political correctness and religion are turning education into a joke.

50% agree. religion isn't doing anything to the education system, but PC, wacko enviromentalism, "new" math, and not applying phonics sure is.


<----agnostic, but doesn't agree that religion is doing any harm to public school systems.

Ding! Winner. Certainly the whole trend towards throwing out the tried and true methods of the "3 Rs" and experimenting on school children every new educational fad that comes down the pike is not working.

 

Yax

Platinum Member
Feb 11, 2003
2,866
0
0
Originally posted by: Jzero
Cliff's Notes: Government has no clue when it comes to the educational system. Politicians in far away places are enacting rules and laws that are unjust and ridiculous; they will eventually destroy the educational system.

Nah...crappy parents are destroying the educational system.

20% agree with the crappy parents comment. The other 40% are the uncaring teachers who just go to work and do their lectures without regards to student progress. 20% student's fault. 20% government, although that last 20% may be increasing with Pres. Bush's "no student left behind" idea.

To justify, how many of you have ever had incompetent teachers? I've seen plenty in my days as as student.

Here's a short list:
1. Geography teacher in 8th grade. We colored maps 90% of the time. We had to know that on a map, water was always blue. All girls got A's unless they were ugly. A+ to girls who flirted with the teacher. That's the honest truth. His name was Mr. Jennings, Jr High in Tulare, CA.

2. History Teacher in 7th grade. He was the P.E. teacher who somehow got to teach History because no one else had that slot free. Our class consisted of reading the book, then doing the questions at the end of each chapter. You got an A, as long as you answered the questions, right or wrong.

3. Algebra 2 teacher in Highschool. His lectures consisted of him sitting next to the overhead projector and talking in monotone, while writing the information on the projector. I learned from reading the book, but most people fell asleep. I remember many times when I started to write stories or poetry, just to keep awake in the class.

The list goes on and on. I think many can associate with the above 3 examples though.

The list goes on and on. It seems like after 5-10 years of teaching, the teachers get burnt out and decide the just don't care anymore. They're just there for the paycheck. Some do care, but that's not enough. They all should care or be FIRED. Perhaps we can blame it on the Unions who forces the schools to yield to these teachers.
 

Jzero

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
18,834
1
0
Originally posted by: cheapbidder01
The list goes on and on. It seems like after 5-10 years of teaching, the teachers get burnt out and decide the just don't care anymore. They're just there for the paycheck. Some do care, but that's not enough. They all should care or be FIRED. Perhaps we can blame it on the Unions who forces the schools to yield to these teachers.

Corollary to my original post: A tenure system that provides a lifetime of job security is also a heavy contributor. The attitude of "I hate teaching, but once I get tenured, pretty much as long as I'm not insubordinate or touching my students' genitals, I just have to show up every day, babysit, collect a paycheck, enjoy my summer off."

There needs to be some way to flush out and remove ineffectual teachers. The article posted by Mallow illustrates why student performance alone is not a valid metric.

Unfortunately, I don't have a valid metric. I can't figure out a way to to objectively spot a bad teacher.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
Originally posted by: GoodToGo
You dont have to do much to destroy the educational system in America, its already in the pits. Political correctness and religion are turning education into a joke.

Wow... I went to a religious school, and our test scores were substantially higher than the state average. I went to a religious college that will be the first undergraduate institution in the U.S. to put a satellite in space. Religion sure ruined my education.
 

GoodToGo

Diamond Member
Jul 16, 2000
3,516
1
0
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: GoodToGo
You dont have to do much to destroy the educational system in America, its already in the pits. Political correctness and religion are turning education into a joke.

Wow... I went to a religious school, and our test scores were substantially higher than the state average. I went to a religious college that will be the first undergraduate institution in the U.S. to put a satellite in space. Religion sure ruined my education.

I am curious, if you can remember, did you guys mix creationism and evolution? I just want to know what the standpoint of religious schools such as yours is before and what it is right now. And FWIW, religious schools dont suck, mixing religion with science blows big time.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Originally posted by: GoodToGo
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: GoodToGo
You dont have to do much to destroy the educational system in America, its already in the pits. Political correctness and religion are turning education into a joke.

50% agree. religion isn't doing anything to the education system, but PC, wacko enviromentalism, "new" math, and not applying phonics sure is.


<----agnostic, but doesn't agree that religion is doing any harm to public school systems.

I think you havent heard all the fracas about evolution.

Yes I have, but there is no basis that the fracas is destroying the educational system.
 

GoodToGo

Diamond Member
Jul 16, 2000
3,516
1
0
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: GoodToGo
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: GoodToGo
You dont have to do much to destroy the educational system in America, its already in the pits. Political correctness and religion are turning education into a joke.

50% agree. religion isn't doing anything to the education system, but PC, wacko enviromentalism, "new" math, and not applying phonics sure is.


<----agnostic, but doesn't agree that religion is doing any harm to public school systems.

I think you havent heard all the fracas about evolution.

Yes I have, but there is no basis that the fracas is destroying the educational system.

It is not destroying the eductation system but the fact that you can start mixing beliefs with science is something that shocks me. As an engineer, I refuse the idea of creationism simply because there is no proof for it and evolution has been endorsed by every scientist and proof continues to accumulate in favor of evolution. In contrast, creationism is just a belief and each time creationists debate with evolutionists, they get their asses handed over. So while evolution is by far the most scientific theory, people still find ways to incorporate creationism into evolution knowing that it is NOT a scientifically endorsed theory. This is what disturbs me the most. Soon they might start altering history, mathematics, physics (god is reponsible for keeping the different planets in space
rolleye.gif
) to be politically or religiously correct and they can use the "victory" of creationism againt evolution as their pillar of strength. I respect religion but when it comes to science, lets keep the religion outside and similarly when it comes to bible studies, lets keep science out.
 
Jan 18, 2001
14,465
1
0
NCLB really isn't a very good bill. Only districts that recieve Title 1 money have to worry about it. Rich districts can afford to blow off the accountability measures, and believe me, those are expensive in themselves. I believe NCLB will just worse the gap between affluent and poor districts.

Also NCLB doesn't really provide schools with anything USEFUL. Rather it just imposes more standardized testing on an already too short academic calander. Testing takes away class time and measures learning in a shallow manner.

The dynamics in the allegory are probably hyberbole, but with some truth behind them.
 

shuan24

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2003
2,558
0
0
Originally posted by: GoodToGo
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: GoodToGo
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: GoodToGo
You dont have to do much to destroy the educational system in America, its already in the pits. Political correctness and religion are turning education into a joke.

50% agree. religion isn't doing anything to the education system, but PC, wacko enviromentalism, "new" math, and not applying phonics sure is.


<----agnostic, but doesn't agree that religion is doing any harm to public school systems.

I think you havent heard all the fracas about evolution.

Yes I have, but there is no basis that the fracas is destroying the educational system.

It is not destroying the eductation system but the fact that you can start mixing beliefs with science is something that shocks me. As an engineer, I refuse the idea of creationism simply because there is no proof for it and evolution has been endorsed by every scientist and proof continues to accumulate in favor of evolution. In contrast, creationism is just a belief and each time creationists debate with evolutionists, they get their asses handed over. So while evolution is by far the most scientific theory, people still find ways to incorporate creationism into evolution knowing that it is NOT a scientifically endorsed theory. This is what disturbs me the most. Soon they might start altering history, mathematics, physics (god is reponsible for keeping the different planets in space
rolleye.gif
) to be politically or religiously correct and they can use the "victory" of creationism againt evolution as their pillar of strength. I respect religion but when it comes to science, lets keep the religion outside and similarly when it comes to bible studies, lets keep science out.



:beer: good post.
 

midwestfisherman

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2003
3,564
8
81
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: GoodToGo
You dont have to do much to destroy the educational system in America, its already in the pits. Political correctness and religion are turning education into a joke.

50% agree. religion isn't doing anything to the education system, but PC, wacko enviromentalism, "new" math, and not applying phonics sure is.


<----agnostic, but doesn't agree that religion is doing any harm to public school systems.


I am not agnostic and I am not religious either, but I sure do agree with what you said. How is religion destroying education in america?!?! You can't even pray in schools now for pete sake!
 

LongCoolMother

Diamond Member
Sep 4, 2001
5,675
0
0
i think its the parents fault. i go to high school, and in almost every class 90% of the students dont care at all for learning. they are inconsiderate and rude to the teacher as well as other students. no kidding. if only their parents would do something about it.....

edit: not to mentiona INCREDIBLY ignorant. but then again, this is california, so what can i say?
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,120
4,771
126
Originally posted by: midwestfisherman
You can't even pray in schools now for pete sake!
Does your education need a little updating? Anyone can pray in a public school. Students can gather and pray together. A student can even get up in a school function and lead a prayer. The only thing a school cannot do is to have a faculty lead forced prayer to a specific religion. (Faculty lead forced silent periods where you pray to any god you want is acceptable).

Back to the subject, now that I have some more time to type. I personally feel any poor learning goes back to the student. If a student slacks off in a good school or a horrible school, the student won't learn. The majority of problems I see are related to students who don't want to do work. I've seen many schools that have homework optional and with the no child left behind policy, the schools won't even fail a student for not taking tests. Thus a student doesn't have to do a single thing any more to graduate - and they know it. So I blame students 100% for the problems.

That is where good schools come in. I came from a school where if you failed to do even one problem on one homework, you went to detention. Skip class? Yep more detention or even calling the cops. Where I live now, that is NOT the case. Virtually no student does any work, and about half of the students skip at least part of every day. A good school would not allow that behavior.

As another example I know someone who was student teaching in a rich school and their parents kicked her out. Why? She assigned homework. The parents felt that their kids were privledged enough not to need to do school work. The school caved, and kicked out the student teacher who wanted the kids to learn. There is the flip side too - of parents who flat out don't care what happens to their kids. Either extreme leads to poor learning.

Government also causes problems. Teachers in some classes spend nearly 100% of thier time teaching answers to a standardized test. Is this what we really want our kids learning? To me there are many things that I'd like our youth to know that isn't covered by a standardized test. Too bad this extra learning is being cut right and left at many schools.

While I could assign blame to the government, parents, schools, or teachers - I don't. Any student is capable of doing extra work and still learning well in even the worst environment. So I say students must be blamed.

 

GoodToGo

Diamond Member
Jul 16, 2000
3,516
1
0
Originally posted by: midwestfisherman
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: GoodToGo
You dont have to do much to destroy the educational system in America, its already in the pits. Political correctness and religion are turning education into a joke.

50% agree. religion isn't doing anything to the education system, but PC, wacko enviromentalism, "new" math, and not applying phonics sure is.


<----agnostic, but doesn't agree that religion is doing any harm to public school systems.


I am not agnostic and I am not religious either, but I sure do agree with what you said. How is religion destroying education in america?!?! You can't even pray in schools now for pete sake!

Read my above post again, people's interpretation and enforcement of religion is what spoils the system.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Ummm, how about people stop oversimplifying by blaming parents, or teachers, or any other single entity, and understand that our education system is a reflection of the overall social situation. I'll copy/paste a snippet of an interesting fark post.

Something not addressed in the copy below, but of utmost importance, is the idea of the family unit. While there was a 'family unit', things were reasonable in America. As soon as it became necessary for two incomes to support a family, we bagan tumbling down this social collapse hill. Until we return to a world where one parent works, and one provides a stable loving home environment, the education system itself is doomed. Kids can't be expected to excel in academics without the moral/ethical background to provide cause to excel. When a child grows up, in a broken home, 5 different moms, neither parent ever at home, watching them slave away at minimum wage jobs, existing without health care, without hope, without direction...it kills their soul. Without the soul the mind and body are powerless. The problem isn't the individuals, it's the social structure we've created in America. It leave children without hope or focus or moral/ethical upbringing. These are things taught by families, things that have to be experienced and not merely alluded to.

*taken from a previous fark post*

Before any other question is answered, we have to address the core concept:

Is public school an institute of learning and education, or is it a preparation ground for social integration and job function.

No matter how much we would like it to be, public schools as currently implemented cant be both. The American public school system was a major departure from all previous views of schools. It was an attempt to bring all citizens up to a basic level of reason and understanding and it was thought that that alone would improve the society and nation of America. And they were right, for a while.

Before America kids were taught the skills necessary to survive, and were trained in whatever field they would be employed in. For those who would serve in leadership or educated roles (such as Priest, Engineer, etc) there was a different path; that of private tutelage leading to University study. Those attending Universities were not trained in one field, they were completely EDUCATED; multiple languages, history, art, science, math, literature, philosophy, etc. The idea behind this at the time was that the upper classes were inherently better than others and were the only ones genetically able to truly become enlightened, as it was referred to.

So along comes America and says, No. All people are capable and deserving of basic literacy and understanding of the world around them. And for those that are capable and choose to go further, the University will still exist for that level of training. Until the industrial revolution, that is. Now we were back to a class based system, where those in charge preferred to have less educated, but dedicated workers under them. They backed a new form of education, the College. A college was a school of one particular skill or type of learning, such as a College of Engineering. By focusing students on one specific type of learning to excel in, they could be utilized for their abilities without providing them the broad education that would result in them knowing enough to rebel against their employers. You have to remember that at this time school was not mandatory, generally didnt progress beyond 6th grade, and was only in session for about 1/2 of the year (we were still mainly an agro-economy and had no functional service industry to see to our daily needs).

That is the foundation of our education system. It is NOT as was originally envisioned. It was SUPPOSED to be public learning and broad education, instead it became a tool of class division and economic resource. In education, as in most facets of life, we surrendered democracy to capitalism. What Im saying is, Our current system is a mongrel hybrid of two entirely different school systems and should be abolished and recreated as on or the other, or allow the creation of both types.

I believe strongly in providing the option for both and letting each individual choose their path. For me personally, I would go the academic route, because its what Im best at, and because I believe broad education in art, philosophy, etc are what provide the correct advancement of a society. They give it direction and limits and reasons. Meanwhile those who feel the other way are free to attend social/career learning centers and become the actual movers and doers of our nation, providing the means to reach the academic ends.

People are talking about effort and attendance and other factors, which have nothing to do with education, they have to do with social acclimation and career possibilities. By splitting schools into two categories we would be able to focus on the parts that matter to each school. Career schools would want to see effort, dedication, self-discipline, attendance and other job related functions, while an academic institution could be based solely on learning, creativity, exhaustive testing, etc.

To that end, there are some fundamental flaws with the implementation of either a results based or subjective relativity grading scale.

Some people dont do well on tests, but can perform the specific operation of the functions tested without trouble. Test anxiety, learning disabilities, so called bad daysthese are all possible factors in reducing a bright persons test scores. Furthermore what type of test plays a significant role, as some children learn visually, others audibly, others through example and experience, etc. Provided that all learning options are utilized in the coursework, how the test is structured and presented would still be a key factor in determining the outcome of the test.

This also brings up a point about the use of luck in testing. Multiple choice tests are great for quizzing and instruction, but they fail utterly to perform the functions of a true test, which is seeing what the student has learned. Fill in the blank, oral review, essay question and project oriented tests are far more useful once classroom learning of a subject is completed.

This severe individualization is the largest single factor opposing public education today. Just understanding the different styles of learning presented by introverts versus extraverts is a major stride in truly acceptable global education. I believe the only possible way to achieve this is through exhaustive training of all educators in psychology, education, personality type theory, etc. Then perform complete analysis of all students, with ongoing update testing, in order to establish a core understanding of that childs learning style and capabilities, and then teach him/her accordingly.

This raises another issue; that of ability/intelligence. There is no doubt that addressing these factors is vital in education, and yet they remained largely unaddressed in our current system. A child with an exceptional broad IQ (say above 150 standard) will learn differently than the other 9 in his class with a 90-120 IQ. Even more importantly, by reviewing the theories of multiple intelligences one who is entirely geared towards spatial relations and art can not be expected to achieve the same scores in math and chemistry. And intelligence itself has NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH GRADES. A student who gets As isnt necessarily smart by todays system, while one who flunks may actually be a genius or above. Separating these two factors, intellect and grades/achievement, is essential before real progress can be made in education.

Another major factor in education is drive. Rather its provided by self-discipline or through pressure by external forces (ie family) a student is only going to achieve to the level he/she chooses, regardless of the opportunities presented to them. Therefore its vital to establish an open and working system, and then to understand and accept someone who doesnt necessarily progress very far within it, regardless of ability.

To achieve this system would take a lot of work, and would probably require federal oversight. However, upon achievement of the working system the ED should be mostly dismantled at the federal level, leaving no more than a voluntary board of advisors drawn not from politicians but from educators. Let the states develop their own independent EDs that stay within the framework that was laid down, after all, this is supposed to be a republic. Costs have to be cut, and that means administration. Cuts should always happen at the top first, not the bottom.

*end copy/paste*