How the superrich avoid paying taxes

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
8-14-2012

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/superrich-clues-might-romney-returns-135603513.html

How the Superrich avoid paying taxes



On the face of it, Senator Harry Reid’s explosive but flimsily sourced claim that Mitt Romney paid no income tax seems preposterous. Mr. Romney has denied it, and without his returns no one can say for sure. But for someone who makes millions of dollars a year, would it even be possible?


Evidently it is.

It so happens that this summer the Internal Revenue Service released data from the 400 individual income tax returns reporting the highest adjusted gross income.



This elite ultrarich group earned on average $202 million in 2009, the latest year available.



And buried in the data is the startling disclosure that six of the 400 paid no federal income tax.


The I.R.S. has never before disclosed that last fact.

Besides the six who paid no federal income tax, the I.R.S. reported that 27 paid from zero to 10 percent of their adjusted gross incomes and another 89 paid between 10 and 15 percent, which is close to the 13.9 percent rate that Mr. Romney disclosed that he paid in 2010. (At the other end of the spectrum, 82 paid 30 to 35 percent. None paid more than 35 percent.)

So more than a quarter of the people earning an average of over $200 million in 2009 paid less than 15 percent of their adjusted gross income in taxes.

How do they do it?

The data show that the ultrarich typically pay low tax rates every year, but 2009 was a special case.

In 2008, people with large stock portfolios and other less liquid assets were disproportionately hit with large losses on paper. One of the oddities of the tax code is that capital gains taxes are discretionary, since they must be paid only when gains are realized. And they can be offset by losses. The silver lining in a bad year like 2008 for wealthy people is that they can “harvest” losses by selling assets, then use those losses to offset any gains. They can also carry forward the losses to offset gains in future years.

What’s abundantly clear, both from Mr. Romney’s 2010 returns and from the returns of the top 400, is that at the very pinnacle of taxpayers, the United States has a regressive tax system. The top 400 earn more than 1 percent of all income in the United States, more than double their share in 1992.



These 400 earned a total of $81 billion in 2009 — but paid an average tax rate of just 19.9 percent.


“It’s regressive because capital gains and dividends dominate the top returns and are taxed at a preferential rate,” Professor Kleinbard said.
Professor Burman added:



“Our tax code has a number of flaws, one of which is that it doesn’t do a very good job of discriminating based on income.



It is progressive over all, but very high-income people can pay very little tax.



How they avoid tax is an important and legitimate issue we should be talking about.”
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
:D That blog says that due to there being no data on Romney's intax group, you have to select the top 400 earners (a group he is not even close to being in) and pretend he is in that group.


It also is critical of him for not knowing his federal income tax burden for every year for the past decade. I bet most people do not know ANY of their tax burdens, let alone 10 years worth.

Quite a silly article.

EDIT: Interesting that it is critical of people that follow the law. Rather than be upset at people for following the law, it should be upset at those who WROTE the law and those who can change it.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
:D That blog says that due to there being no data on Romney's intax group, you have to select the top 400 earners (a group he is not even close to being in) and pretend he is in that group.


It also is critical of him for not knowing his federal income tax burden for every year for the past decade. I bet most people do not know ANY of their tax burdens, let alone 10 years worth.

Quite a silly article.

EDIT: Interesting that it is critical of people that follow the law. Rather than be upset at people for following the law, it should be upset at those who WROTE the law and those who can change it.
Agreed. I certainly support deductions for losses, and special low tax rates for true long term investments. For the rest though, I think from basic fairness that dividend income should be taxed the same as wages. What moral justification for taxing the man who labors for his bread at a higher rate than the man for whom he labors, the man whose money works for him? What legitimate purpose can there be for letting John Edwards takes his earnings as lightly taxed capital gains rather than highly taxed wages? Better by far to remove the corporate income tax and tax all dividends and short term capital gains as wage income.

And money from exercising stock options whose value is tied to current market value should be taxed as what it is - a gift.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
LOL at the "none paid more than 35% in federal income tax"

Well no shit. Tax rates, how do they work? Nothing more than class warfare clap trap to get the fools to lap it up. Also, AMT isn't calculated in that.

Want to get really pissed? Nearly half of americans pay ZERO income tax with a large percentage getting MORE money back than they ever paid!!!!!!!!
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,813
4,339
136
LOL at the "none paid more than 35% in federal income tax"

Well no shit. Tax rates, how do they work? Nothing more than class warfare clap trap to get the fools to lap it up. Also, AMT isn't calculated in that.

Want to get really pissed? Nearly half of americans pay ZERO income tax with a large percentage getting MORE money back than they ever paid!!!!!!!!

Actually that doesn't piss me off. Sorry. Have you seen these peoples yearly income?
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Actually that doesn't piss me off. Sorry. Have you seen these peoples yearly income?

Answer me this - at what income level does the EITC phase out and at what level does it phase out completely?

The fact is they're not paying their fair share, they pay ZERO.
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,813
4,339
136
Answer me this - at what income level does the EITC phase out and at what level does it phase out completely?

The fact is they're not paying their fair share, they pay ZERO.

Oh nos..the guy making 19k a year pays no taxes..the horror of it all.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
LOL at the "none paid more than 35% in federal income tax"

Well no shit. Tax rates, how do they work? Nothing more than class warfare clap trap to get the fools to lap it up. Also, AMT isn't calculated in that.

35% is the limit, yes. Some kinds of income are not taxable. The marginal utility of 35% of $202M is quite low, and even lower for people whose incomes have been enormous for years or decades. OTOH, you'd probably claim starvation on an after tax income of $131M/yr.

Want to get really pissed? Nearly half of americans pay ZERO income tax with a large percentage getting MORE money back than they ever paid!!!!!!!!

They pay lots of other taxes, living hand to mouth. The Uber wealthy pay a very small % of their incomes on other taxes. Mitt may pay less as a % of income in total taxes & fees than people in the bottom 20%, and much, much less than higher middle class earners.

It's people in the $100K-$500K realm that take the biggest tax hit. Oddly enough, they're often the ones who identify & sympathize with people making much, much more while paying less. Propaganda works.

AMT doesn't apply to LTCG's, either.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
I agree money isn't everything but it sure helps I challenge anyone to live on a 19k a year salary.

When your food, food for the brood, rent/utilities and all basic necessities are provided for free, and an 8k check from the government each year, it's not hard at all.

Now get back to work so you can pay their lot in life!
 

Smoblikat

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2011
5,184
107
106
Lemme break it down for you:
Average salary of 50K/yr well say 25% tax rate, 50/4 = 12.5k/yr in taxes
Romney makes 200m/yr well say give him a 15% tax rate, he paid 30 MILLION in taxes. I fail to see how its so unfair that he pays 30 MILLION dollars and you only pay 12.5 thousand. It seems like he is doing more than his fair share.
 

a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
21
81
8-14-2012

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/superrich-clues-might-romney-returns-135603513.html

How the Superrich avoid paying taxes



On the face of it, Senator Harry Reid’s explosive but flimsily sourced claim that Mitt Romney paid no income tax seems preposterous. Mr. Romney has denied it, and without his returns no one can say for sure. But for someone who makes millions of dollars a year, would it even be possible?


Evidently it is.

It so happens that this summer the Internal Revenue Service released data from the 400 individual income tax returns reporting the highest adjusted gross income.



This elite ultrarich group earned on average $202 million in 2009, the latest year available.



And buried in the data is the startling disclosure that six of the 400 paid no federal income tax.


The I.R.S. has never before disclosed that last fact.

Besides the six who paid no federal income tax, the I.R.S. reported that 27 paid from zero to 10 percent of their adjusted gross incomes and another 89 paid between 10 and 15 percent, which is close to the 13.9 percent rate that Mr. Romney disclosed that he paid in 2010. (At the other end of the spectrum, 82 paid 30 to 35 percent. None paid more than 35 percent.)

So more than a quarter of the people earning an average of over $200 million in 2009 paid less than 15 percent of their adjusted gross income in taxes.

How do they do it?

The data show that the ultrarich typically pay low tax rates every year, but 2009 was a special case.

In 2008, people with large stock portfolios and other less liquid assets were disproportionately hit with large losses on paper. One of the oddities of the tax code is that capital gains taxes are discretionary, since they must be paid only when gains are realized. And they can be offset by losses. The silver lining in a bad year like 2008 for wealthy people is that they can “harvest” losses by selling assets, then use those losses to offset any gains. They can also carry forward the losses to offset gains in future years.

What’s abundantly clear, both from Mr. Romney’s 2010 returns and from the returns of the top 400, is that at the very pinnacle of taxpayers, the United States has a regressive tax system. The top 400 earn more than 1 percent of all income in the United States, more than double their share in 1992.



These 400 earned a total of $81 billion in 2009 — but paid an average tax rate of just 19.9 percent.


“It’s regressive because capital gains and dividends dominate the top returns and are taxed at a preferential rate,” Professor Kleinbard said.
Professor Burman added:



“Our tax code has a number of flaws, one of which is that it doesn’t do a very good job of discriminating based on income.



It is progressive over all, but very high-income people can pay very little tax.



How they avoid tax is an important and legitimate issue we should be talking about.”


I have but one question: Is it legal?
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
What a BS article.

The author throws in this sentence just to get folks in a tizzy:

They can also carry forward the losses to offset gains in future years.

Can anyone tell me the loss carry-forward limit? Wellllll???
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Agreed. I certainly support deductions for losses, and special low tax rates for true long term investments. For the rest though, I think from basic fairness that dividend income should be taxed the same as wages. What moral justification for taxing the man who labors for his bread at a higher rate than the man for whom he labors, the man whose money works for him? What legitimate purpose can there be for letting John Edwards takes his earnings as lightly taxed capital gains rather than highly taxed wages? Better by far to remove the corporate income tax and tax all dividends and short term capital gains as wage income.

I agree, and that is a reasonable division of the types of investment income.

And money from exercising stock options whose value is tied to current market value should be taxed as what it is - a gift.

I would mark it as regular income - too many loopholes in the gift laws.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
I agree money isn't everything but it sure helps I challenge anyone to live on a 19k a year salary.

I supported a wife and kid on less than that, from my Social Security Earnings Record:

Work Year Taxed Social Security Earnings Taxed Medicare Earnings
1995 $20,699 $20,699
1994 $18,532 $18,532
1993 $17,821 $17,821
1992 $14,964 $14,964
1991 $13,999 $13,999
1990 $12,258 $12,258
1989 $10,360 $10,360
1988 $9,921 $9,921


I joined the Navy in 1987 and my daughter was born in 1987, so 1988 was my first full year on active duty and first full year with a child. I can certainly say I know what it is like to be poor. You can do amazing things with rice and gravy.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
167
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
I supported a wife and kid on less than that, from my Social Security Earnings Record:

Work Year Taxed Social Security Earnings Taxed Medicare Earnings
1995 $20,699 $20,699
1994 $18,532 $18,532
1993 $17,821 $17,821
1992 $14,964 $14,964
1991 $13,999 $13,999
1990 $12,258 $12,258
1989 $10,360 $10,360
1988 $9,921 $9,921


I joined the Navy in 1987 and my daughter was born in 1987, so 1988 was my first full year on active duty and first full year with a child. I can certainly say I know what it is like to be poor. You can do amazing things with rice and gravy.

$9921 in 1988 would buy more than 19k would today. http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,813
4,339
136
Lemme break it down for you:
Average salary of 50K/yr well say 25% tax rate, 50/4 = 12.5k/yr in taxes
Romney makes 200m/yr well say give him a 15% tax rate, he paid 30 MILLION in taxes. I fail to see how its so unfair that he pays 30 MILLION dollars and you only pay 12.5 thousand. It seems like he is doing more than his fair share.

Its not about the amount, its about the percentage. Everyone knows this. He should pay more percent than someone making 50k/year. Or at least the same 25% which means he would make 50mil in taxes.

Unless you think its fair that someone making 4000 TIMES as much should pay less percent than someone making 50k. Yeah, your read that right. 4000 times as much.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
I supported a wife and kid on less than that, from my Social Security Earnings Record:

Work Year Taxed Social Security Earnings Taxed Medicare Earnings
1995 $20,699 $20,699
1994 $18,532 $18,532
1993 $17,821 $17,821
1992 $14,964 $14,964
1991 $13,999 $13,999
1990 $12,258 $12,258
1989 $10,360 $10,360
1988 $9,921 $9,921


I joined the Navy in 1987 and my daughter was born in 1987, so 1988 was my first full year on active duty and first full year with a child. I can certainly say I know what it is like to be poor. You can do amazing things with rice and gravy.

Base housing? Full boat family medical & dental?
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
$9921 in 1988 would buy more than 19k would today. http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

Barely: $19,244.73

Everyone would agree that amount rounds down to $19k. Wonder if that is why you did not post the number you generated? Hmmm....

The $19k is a number pulled out his butt, though, to sound very low and brow beat peole with. Yet people as high as $50k pay no taxes:

But income tax rates were lowered at every income level. The changes made it relatively easy for families of four making $50,000 to eliminate their income tax liability.
Here's how they did it, according to Deloitte Tax:
The family was entitled to a standard deduction of $11,400 and four personal exemptions of $3,650 apiece, leaving a taxable income of $24,000. The federal income tax on $24,000 is $2,769.
With two children younger than 17, the family qualified for two $1,000 child tax credits. Its Making Work Pay credit was $800 because the parents were married filing jointly.
The $2,800 in credits exceeds the $2,769 in taxes, so the family makes a $31 profit from the federal income tax.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3622644...finance/t/half-us-pays-no-federal-income-tax/

So yes, I have raised a family on $19k a year. I know what it is like to be poor, living in Orlando Florida, raising a child.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Base housing?

Nope, had to live off base. Not enough housing. Base housing would have made the money go a LOT longer - I had to pay 2/3 of my monthly pay for housing.

Full boat family medical & dental?

For me, yes, but only if I went to a military doctor...if I went to a civilian doctor I had to pay. For my family, no, you have to pay...or at least we did when I was in. We had CHAMPUS, which is now Tricare Standard.

http://www.military.com/benefits/tricare/your-tricare-benefits-explained.html
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
3 or 5k I believe. I've done it.

Personal, not corporate, which is unlimited.

Dunno about hedge funds, PE situations, or offshore entities.

The article points out how loss taking is discretionary, so stock prices that plunged in 2008 weren't realized until sold in 2009. there are no limitations within a given year.