How sneaky from the Governor of FL...

[DirthNader]

Orlando - Tampa never made sense in terms of an actual commuter use case.

The reason it's been on the radar for so long as a high speed rail corridor is that it's a relatively straight shot and it can be built between the east and westbound portions of I4 (avoiding right-of-way and immenient domain issues).

If it had been built it would have been a ghost train. Orlando to Brevard (east coast) would make more sense with the Atlantic beaches as viable tourist destinations and a large skilled labor pool in Brevard looking for work in Orlando after Obama gutted the space program.

 

[Craig234]

Orlando - Tampa never made sense in terms of an actual commuter use case.

The reason it's been on the radar for so long as a high speed rail corridor is that it's a relatively straight shot and it can be built between the east and westbound portions of I4 (avoiding right-of-way and immenient domain issues).

If it had been built it would have been a ghost train. Orlando to Brevard (east coast) would make more sense with the Atlantic beaches as viable tourist destinations and a large skilled labor pool in Brevard looking for work in Orlando after Obama gutted the space program.

Except the studies say you are wrong, and the latest one just released showed the profits would be even better and the ridership even higher than preciously estimated.

 

[DirthNader]

Link? I genuinely curious.

EDIT: I'm guessing you're referencing a March 2011 study. Huge surprise I'm sure, but there are studies that disagree, primarily citing historical overestimation of ridership projections and underestimation of capital and operational costs.

Only way to be sure would be build it. As a Florida resident, I'd rather not take that chance. Let someone else be the US HSR guinea pig.

 

[wayliff]

I can think of at least 2,374 things that are more important to me.

Fine but that was not the question.

 

[wayliff]

I know 100% for sure it was not in the original plan to run the train to downtown Tampa or St Petersburg, I suspect it was the same on the Orlando side. So traffic in the downtowns of these 3 major cities would not have been impacted in any way. The place the train ran was mainly in rural areas where traffic really isn't an issue. St Pete, Tampa, and Orlando are EXTREMELY car based destinations. There isn't a lot of Public transportations (other than buses).. unless you take the bus, you drive.. period. There is no method in place that would have taken people from the train stop on the tampa side to the beaches for example. The train would have run nowhere NEAR the beaches. People would have had to rent a car or take a bus.

Yup, one certainly needs a car in the Tampa Bay or Orlando area.
It is a huge hassle otherwise.

 

[Craig234]

Link? I genuinely curious.

EDIT: I'm guessing you're referencing a March 2011 study. Huge surprise I'm sure, but there are studies that disagree, primarily citing historical overestimation of ridership projections and underestimation of capital and operational costs.

Only way to be sure would be build it. As a Florida resident, I'd rather not take that chance. Let someone else be the US HSR guinea pig.

Yes, that's the one - a $1.3 million study this year. Link to your studies saying it's wrong?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/03/09/2106646/high-speed-rail-is-profitable.html

They should not be the right-wing and libertarian think tank propaganda that the governor cites.

Governor has sure been lying - 'worried about cost overruns' vendors agreed to cover them, 'payback if project fails', federal government says nothing is owed back.

 

[wayliff]

I can think of at least 2,374 things that are more important to me.

well - good job dodging the question

 

[Fear No Evil]

Yes, that's the one - a $1.3 million study this year. Link to your studies saying it's wrong?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/03/09/2106646/high-speed-rail-is-profitable.html

They should not be the right-wing and libertarian think tank propaganda that the governor cites.

Governor has sure been lying - 'worried about cost overruns' vendors agreed to cover them, 'payback if project fails', federal government says nothing is owed back.

Ridership numbers are ALWAYS inflated for these type of things. There is simply no way this thing would have been profitable because almost NONE of these HSR lines are. There simply is not enough demand for it, its inconvenient, and there is virtually ZERO infrastruture in place here in FL to get the people from the rail stations to where they want to go other than cars. Its absurd to thing someone is going to pay for a train then rent a car when they could have just driven their car from Orlando to Tampa in ~1hr 30 mins...

I'd like to see one government infrastructure project where a private vendor agreed to pay any and ALL overrun costs. I simply don't believe it. Are you honestly telling me that if the project cost 10% more to complete that the vendors who would only make 10 - 20 million a year would eat their profits for the next 10-15 years to cover it? Hell, a 5% overage on this project would be ~$120 million dollars.. probably ~5-7 years worth of 'profit' that this project would supposidly generate.

Besides, it wouldn't FIX anything because the train doesn't address the traffic problems of Tampa or Orlando and people would still have to rent cars when they got there because there is no public transportation other than BUSES and who is going to sit outside when its 94 degrees 70% humidity to wait for a fucking bus which will take them 2 hours to get to where they want to go?

Do you have any idea how long it would take to get from where the train would drop you off in Tampa to the beaches on a bus? Probably longer than it would take you to drive from Tampa to Orlando.

This project was absolutely ABSURD and the people who actually PAY taxes in this state ABSOLUTELY support the Gov's decision to nuke it.

 

[Fear No Evil]

well - good job dodging the question

Let me be more direct then. I don't give a shit about some chain letter he asks supporters to use. I DO care about him saving us billions in a worthless choo-choo train project.

 

[wayliff]

Let me be more direct then. I don't give a shit about some chain letter he asks supporters to use. I DO care about him saving us billions in a worthless choo-choo train project.

ok - understood. I suppose that means you don't give a shit about the guy's integrity.

 

[soundforbjt]

Well when you're a new gov with less than 30% approval rating already, you must do something to make you look popular\well liked.

 

[Fear No Evil]

ok - understood. I suppose that means you don't give a shit about the guy's integrity.

I think his integrity in killing off a project that would cost the state hundreds of millions, if not more, and turning down billions in 'free' federal money to do it despite the objections of the free loaders of the state who won't use the train anyway shows more about his 'integrity' than some form letter he's asking people to use to show their support.

From the article linked I don't see any indication that he's asking people who DON'T support him to send the letters nor any indication he is forcing people to send them. I simply don't see a problem with a political figure trying to organize his base to show their support. Does the Gov has some sort of new power that he's able to force citizens to write letters against their will who don't support him?

Faux outrage.

 

[CPA]

You'd love it here now... the GOP has a stranglehold on everything.

I'm seriously considering getting out soon.

Then leave. What's holding you back?

 

[ayabe]

I voted for him. And would again. Anyone who will shitcan a worthless choo-choo train and billions of federal obama bucks is A-OK in my book.

That goes a long way in explaining your twisted ideology.

The guy is a criminal but that's OK because he hates the economic benefit of....trains?

Rick Scott belongs in jail and his assets, all of them, should be confiscated and returned to the taxpayers he stole them from.

Edit - Plenty of taxpayers wanted the trains, myself included. Your opinion is the MINORITY in FL bubba.

 

[wayliff]

I think his integrity in killing off a project that would cost the state hundreds of millions, if not more, and turning down billions in 'free' federal money to do it despite the objections of the free loaders of the state who won't use the train anyway shows more about his 'integrity' than some form letter he's asking people to use to show their support.

From the article linked I don't see any indication that he's asking people who DON'T support him to send the letters nor any indication he is forcing people to send them. I simply don't see a problem with a political figure trying to organize his base to show their support. Does the Gov has some sort of new power that he's able to force citizens to write letters against their will who don't support him?

Faux outrage.

It is definitely not something to write home about. As you indicated, nobody is forcing anyone to do anything but is nonetheless sleazy to facilitate this behavior in order to gain popularity through the media when reality is quite different.

As far as faux outrage, it is not most outrageous but it is to some extent. It is a mixture of little and big things that show one's integrity.

But it is quite fine to disagree.

Edit: Rick Scott has shown his true colors already as a CEO. Proven or not, somebody that leads a company simply cannot just be blind to what happens. This person should have not been elected and I think many Floridians have found out they made a mistake in voting this person in. Now I can't say that Alex Sink was the better choice but perhaps the lesser of the two evils.

 

[Fear No Evil]

That goes a long way in explaining your twisted ideology.

The guy is a criminal but that's OK because he hates the economic benefit of....trains?

Rick Scott belongs in jail and his assets, all of them, should be confiscated and returned to the taxpayers he stole them from.

Edit - Plenty of taxpayers wanted the trains, myself included. Your opinion is the MINORITY in FL bubba.

Then feel free to invest in trains and get it built privately if its going to be so popular and profitable. Surely someone would do that if it were such a good idea and such a lock to be bringing in excess cash? Why do we need 2.4 billion in Federal funds in order to make it viable?

I would disagree that I am in the minority. The majority of VOTERS voted in people, including Scott, who were not pro-train. If your MAJORITY wants a train it should go out and vote. This past election they did not, at least not the way you wanted them to.

 

[Thump553]

The drafting of such mass letter forms is just about universal among all political parties and groups. It is usually pretty ineffective as the newspaper editors aren't dolts. My town paper occassionally turns the table on this technique by publishing identical letters to the editor (signed by different people) back to back.

Certainly no fan of Scott but outrage not found.

 

[wayliff]

The drafting of such mass letter forms is just about universal among all political parties and groups. It is usually pretty ineffective as the newspaper editors aren't dolts. My town paper occassionally turns the table on this technique by publishing identical letters to the editor (signed by different people) back to back.

Certainly no fan of Scott but outrage not found.

It is sad that anyone has to come to this to try to increase popularity, or whatever it is.

 

[Fear No Evil]

It is sad that anyone has to come to this to try to increase popularity, or whatever it is.

Well since a politicians ability to get re-elected is directly related to their popularity - It seems like trying to increase that makes sense does it not? Are you outraged when politicians run ads during the campaign saying how great they are too? Or when groups supporting them do it? I don't get it. This is so absurd its not even a blip on the radar of things I would worry about.

 

[wayliff]

Well since a politicians ability to get re-elected is directly related to their popularity - It seems like trying to increase that makes sense does it not? Are you outraged when politicians run ads during the campaign saying how great they are too? Or when groups supporting them do it? I don't get it. This is so absurd its not even a blip on the radar of things I would worry about.

Why do you post then?

I am bothered when politicians are able to buy their vote by outspending competitors because their own wealth is significantly higher. People are never able to get a taste of other candidates and are simply stuck with what its on their faces.

 

[wayliff]

Well since a politicians ability to get re-elected is directly related to their popularity - It seems like trying to increase that makes sense does it not? Are you outraged when politicians run ads during the campaign saying how great they are too? Or when groups supporting them do it? I don't get it. This is so absurd its not even a blip on the radar of things I would worry about.

I do grant you that I need to go on to something else. This had its 15 minutes. I was bothered and so I wanted to hear perspectives. Thanks.

 

[DirthNader]

Yes, that's the one - a $1.3 million study this year. Link to your studies saying it's wrong?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/03/09/2106646/high-speed-rail-is-profitable.html

They should not be the right-wing and libertarian think tank propaganda that the governor cites.

http://reason.org/files/florida_high_speed_rail_analysis.pdf

I'll leave you to debunk the actual facts of this "libertarian think tank propaganda". Given Robert Poole's reputation on transportation issues I'm OK with their conclusions.

Sorry for the delayed response, been paying attention to the Fed (and work!) today.

 

[Fern]

The drafting of such mass letter forms is just about universal among all political parties and groups. It is usually pretty ineffective as the newspaper editors aren't dolts. My town paper occassionally turns the table on this technique by publishing identical letters to the editor (signed by different people) back to back.

Certainly no fan of Scott but outrage not found.

It is sad that anyone has to come to this to try to increase popularity, or whatever it is.

I think what he's trying to do is help, or encourage, his supporters to mobilize via a letter writing campaign. He, or his staff, is offering a 'model' letter his supporters can use as an example. Yeah, the dumber/lazier ones may just simply copy it with no modifications.

But this is very common. People organizing all kinds of efforts do this, whether it's to encourage city council or Congress to act or pressuring corporations to do something.

I don't know anything about the guy, and I too see no outrage to be had here.

Fern