"Religion is poison." - Mao Tse-Tung
Remember the Crusades? The civilised Arab world was none too impressed with "barbarian" Christians back then either. Organised religion, when it gets too powerful, often explodes in this manner. Believing you will go to Heaven for fighting for your deity is a powerful phenomenon.
Do we need a United Deity? Or none?
Remember the Crusades? The civilised Arab world was none too impressed with "barbarian" Christians back then either. Organised religion, when it gets too powerful, often explodes in this manner. Believing you will go to Heaven for fighting for your deity is a powerful phenomenon.
Do we need a United Deity? Or none?
To me it would seem like the poorer and more underdeveloped a country or region is, the more problems, including terrorists there will be in and around that particular region, regardless of the major religion.
This would seem to fit well with how the world looks, most of the middle east is very poor, and very underdeveloped, with a few notable exceptions that also don't suffer as much from those unfortunate side effects.
Same goes for Africa, both Muslim and Christian parts.
The US, and major parts of Europe on the other hand are highly developed, have a(relatively) well educated population, little poverty, etc.
Education of course is the biggest factor for most people, I've met quite a few bigoted people in my life, the thing all have had in common has been a lacking education.
The day that the middle east and it's people is doing better is the day that acts of terrorism will drop off IMO, same for all other places where it happens.
Actually that day is when the process can start, it's not like it'll happen overnight.
It's also interesting to see that athithi and Sultan can't see theirselves in each other, considering the stuff they say to each other and others is quite similar, only different facets of the same crystal.
This would seem to fit well with how the world looks, most of the middle east is very poor, and very underdeveloped, with a few notable exceptions that also don't suffer as much from those unfortunate side effects.
Same goes for Africa, both Muslim and Christian parts.
The US, and major parts of Europe on the other hand are highly developed, have a(relatively) well educated population, little poverty, etc.
Education of course is the biggest factor for most people, I've met quite a few bigoted people in my life, the thing all have had in common has been a lacking education.
The day that the middle east and it's people is doing better is the day that acts of terrorism will drop off IMO, same for all other places where it happens.
Actually that day is when the process can start, it's not like it'll happen overnight.
It's also interesting to see that athithi and Sultan can't see theirselves in each other, considering the stuff they say to each other and others is quite similar, only different facets of the same crystal.
If that is true, then there must be quite a few uneducated people in this forum. As to your reasoning, poverty is a possible reason, but education, probably not. Education, as we can see, only seems to make people capable to be bigots on ATOT.
CD.
I'm sure there are, they may know how to use a computer, but how many are actually educated about the world outside their own little part of it for example?
When I mentioned the bigots I had met, I was talking about those kinds of people.
They're living in a society where you'll get some education, if you want to or not, if nothing else just through osmosis.
They know how to use computers, drive a car, etc, but not much about for example the middle east or the people there.
I ran into such a bunch once, a couple of skinheads on a bus, they seemed to like me, maybe because I cut my hair short enough to look like a skinhead who just hasn't bothered to shave his head for a week or two.
So they go on talking to me about how they hate all those fvcking awesome people and gooks and whatnot.
All the time, I kept thinking about two questions I'd ask if it weren't for the obvious fact that they might take more than a little offense at that.
One would be how many of all those awful people they've actually met and talked to.
The second one would be, since they love to talk about how expensive those people are, all on social security and so forth, I'd like to know what exactly they're doing to make Sweden a better place.
I doubt any of them had any particularly high paying jobs, if any, hence they pay little taxes and possibly even cost money by requiring social support.
Also, if they go out on a weekend beating and beat some poor immigrant up, how much does that cost the country that they claim to love so much.
I doubt they'd like that line of thinking much since it goes against what they're saying and doing.
Now, I don't think these were uneducated in the same manner as a poor farmer in Afghanistan is, but nevertheless, I consider them poorly educated, and I attribute their sad view on other people to this lack of education.
Originally posted by: Klixxer
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
The sheer will to kill one of your own flesh and blood is something to behold.
I keep remembering Marlon Brando's character in Apocalypse Now (Colonel William E. Kurtz) and how he remarked that we, the US in that case, had lost the WILL to do anything. We were merely acting, and with no feeling and with no dedication. If I had a divison of people like Sultan, this war could be over in 6 months
to follow God's commands supercedes one's own will.
Another proof how fvcked in the head you are, no, what is right is not determined by god, it is in your own mind and defined by laws of humanity.
you decide whats right for you and let me decide whats right for me. since you are an admitted non-religious person, i accept your beliefs.
Please, show me in what manner I am similar to Sultan...I think some people are saying that because it sounds "fair". How can a Muslim bigot and Taliban supporter who condones torture, public execution, and according to Klixxer, child molestation, be any less than a Hindu who realizes the imperfections in his religion? No, that can't be right. So, let's slot them together. After all they come from neighbouring countries, they must be similar. Damn, they probably come in the same color too! It is too much trouble to learn the facts. It's easier to try to sound intelligent than actually take the trouble to become intelligent.
If you think you are even remotely reasonable, you will point out how Sultan and I are similar. Just because I exchange posts with a religious bigot doesn't mean I am one too.
incorrect. the "stoning to death" law is mandated for either gender committing adultery. this punishment has not been handed out in oh... around 20 years if I remember correctly in any nation of Muslim majority. besides, the burden of evidence to prove adultery is next to impossible. the only plausible way this punishment can be handed out if the adulteror/adulteress confesses, and how likely is that to happen?
I disagree. I have of stated that all religions/races/creeds have their own bad elements including extremists. Because one person or a group of person from Hinduism (800 million followers) or Islam (1.2 billion) or whatever religion commits an act of terror, the whole religion or the followers of that religion should not be condemned.
Additionally, I have also stated that these barbarians (to quote Rabid) are not only acting out against Western/non Muslim people but also against Muslims, both foreign and Iraqi. How can you attribute the teachings of the religion (Islam) to killing ones of your own faith? These terrorists do not represent Islam, Muslims, including I, governments of Muslim majority states and numerous clerics have spoken out against these people and have acted out in whatever they can to curb such extremists/terrorists.
athithi on the other hand touts tolerance and secularism when his views regarding Islam say completely otherwise. He is also in denial that Hindus can also have their own extremists, even after I have posted numerous examples of Hindu terrorists.
You're right.
I didn't mean to imply that you're as screwed up as Sultan is, with his admitted willingness to murder children and whatnot, my statement was worded very poorly.
I was mostly referring to the posts where you seem to imply that Hindu's committing crimes are somehow not religiously motivated because they don't shout the names of their gods(I'm a little weak on Hindu gods, I guess maybe Kali would be the most appropriate god to refer to when harming or killing someone?) while they do it.
I apologize for my statement.
Did you read my post at all?
In the very first paragraph I specifically said that I didn't think it was due to religion itself.
Did you read my post at all? I DISAGREED with you. I also went further and said all religions/races/creeds have their own bad elements. We have seen terrorists in this country itself. Unabomber? Last year a guy was going around killing people with a sniper rifle? The guy who blew up that building in Oklahoma?
Your post seemed to imply that I thought Islam in itself was a problem, at least that's how I interpreted it, and given your posting history, I think that's pretty fair.
Given the populations in the US or Europe vs for example the middle east, the ME is vastly overrepresented in these matters, or would you disagree?
Also, there is a clear difference between someone who's mentally ill and goes on a killingspree and someone's who's merely brainwashed into blowing himself up or other similar deeds.
I'm only talking about the latter(terrorists who commit these acts with some specific goal in mind, rather than due to mental illness).
Anyway, if you don't think religion is the problem, you don't think the region is the problem, and you don't think the state of that region(education, wealth, etc) is the problem, what exactly do you think the problem is? Do you just think every group of people will always have a bunch of fanatics ready to kill others regardless?
Given the populations in the US or Europe vs for example the middle east, the ME is vastly overrepresented in these matters, or would you disagree?
Also, there is a clear difference between someone who's mentally ill and goes on a killingspree and someone's who's merely brainwashed into blowing himself up or other similar deeds.
I'm only talking about the latter(terrorists who commit these acts with some specific goal in mind, rather than due to mental illness).
Anyway, if you don't think religion is the problem, you don't think the region is the problem, and you don't think the state of that region(education, wealth, etc) is the problem, what exactly do you think the problem is? Do you just think every group of people will always have a bunch of fanatics ready to kill others regardless?
Phew! Thanks!
Sultan and Klixxer are pretending that I condone Hindu extremism.
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...AR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear
Several times in that thread I have made my opinions about Hindu extremism very clear. If anything, I might be guilty of having a more optimistic outlook about where Indian society is headed than others around the world. If that is the accusation, I pleadly guilty - with pride.
Sultan and Klixxer would also like to believe that I hate Islam and all Muslims. I think I am more frustrated that Muslims won't recognize that they have a serious problem of terrorists in their religion and they need to do something about it. Just in terms of sheer numbers, ratio and the level to which problems are being addressed, while Hinduism and Christianity have their terrorist elements, they are tackling the situation much better than Muslims. I base this on the simple fact that a Muslim in India is far safer than a Hindu in any Muslim country. Does that mean minorities are not the target of Hindu extremism - no. It just means that they are less likely to be the victims of Hindu extremism and have better recourse to justice when the crime takes place. Does that mean Hinduism is perfect? No, but it surely means Hindu extremism is not exported outside the country the way Islamic extremism is exported all over the world. Does that mean Muslims are bad? No, it just means they handle the terrorist problem poorly. And it means that part of the reason they are doing a poor job of handling terrorism is because they are too busy defending the apparently peaceful nature of Islam. Do I have a straight-forward answer to Aimster's question about what specifically they can do? No. But nor am I in contention for a Nobel Peace Prize.
BTW, Sati and dowry and wife abuse and acid throwing are ALL criminal acts. Demolition of Babri Masjid, Bombay riots, Gujarat riots, etc., are acts of Hindu extremism. The examples of Hindu moderation, OTOH, lie in the very existence of India - the world's largest democracy. As for it's secularism, the law of the nation permits Muslims to follow the Muslim Personal Law, Sharia - which even the U.S does not accord to Muslims. That is where I feel secularism flows over into minority appeasement. But people like Sultan and Klixxer will ignore all of this and demand that I condemn Hinduism instead :roll:
The world cites the ME as a hotbed for terrorism based on exactly what? Osama bin Laden and his Al-Qaeda? Palestinian (if there is a nation called that) terrorists? And the PanAm hijackers from Libya? How many other countries are there in the ME? Kuwait, Oman, Syria, Lebanon, UAE, Yemen, Iran, etc, etc, etc.
How many home-made terrorist have we breeded here in the US? I cited three examples of the top of my head. It is easy to dismiss them as being mentally ill. Were all the KKK members mentally ill? Were all the policemen who beat up Rodney King mentally ill? Were all the soldiers in Abu Gharib also mentally ill? Or were they brainwashed?
Taking just the last as an example, can you give me ANY sound reasoning why those soldiers committed those acts? There were over 150000 troops in Afghanistan, but only a couple of dozen (even less found guilty based on evidence) who sodomized inmates with sticks, raped, attacked with dogs and even beat up prisoners to death.
Hey, even we are actively supporting terrorism by handing our government the same power as Saddam had in Guantanamo Bay. If you read the other thread in P&N, we find two of the biggest suspects of Al-Qaeda have disappeared. What of that?
I dont know the reason why these people commit such acts. Maybe their mama didnt buy them their favorite toy. Maybe a hail fell from the sky and struck them on their head. Who knows?
Again, I repeat, you can have these sorts of elements anywhere in the world, no matter what religion/race/creed.
The following tone from Athithi can best contradict his first statement:
Btw, there is a Mandir right down the street from where I live (in Pakistan). I dont know how you wish to qualify your statement that Muslims are far safer in India than Hindus in a Muslim country. Saudi Arabia has a LARGE Hindu workforce. So does Malaysia. As does Oman. You're just talking crap without any substance. I dont see Saudi Arabia or Malaysia having Hindu/Muslim riots. India does. Indeed India is a progressive state and I laud its development, but to point fingers at others when one's own house is not in order is just hypocritical.
Again, you do not have an answer to Aimster's question. I contended that all Muslim majority nations are doing what they can, and I cited examples of Pakistan, Indonesia and Saudi Arabia but you in your most articulate response dismissed that post and delved into providing flame baits.
And lastly, I care two hoots about you condemning Hinduism. Try and fix your own mess first and leave other's mess to themselves. That would be a more reconciliatory approach.
Originally posted by: Sultan
Btw, there is a Mandir right down the street from where I live (in Pakistan). I dont know how you wish to qualify your statement that Muslims are far safer in India than Hindus in a Muslim country. Saudi Arabia has a LARGE Hindu workforce. So does Malaysia. As does Oman. You're just talking crap without any substance. I dont see Saudi Arabia or Malaysia having Hindu/Muslim riots. India does. Indeed India is a progressive state and I laud its development, but to point fingers at others when one's own house is not in order is just hypocritical.
Again, you do not have an answer to Aimster's question. I contended that all Muslim majority nations are doing what they can, and I cited examples of Pakistan, Indonesia and Saudi Arabia but you in your most articulate response dismissed that post and delved into providing flame baits.
And lastly, I care two hoots about you condemning Hinduism. Try and fix your own mess first and leave other's mess to themselves. That would be a more reconciliatory approach.
Let's start by counting the Hindu places of worship in Muslim countries and the Muslim places of worship in India...that should provide a good picture of religious freedom in both types of societies. No matter how you try to spin it, Hindus have a better handle on their extremist elements than Islam does on their own. I wish there were no Hindu terrorists today, but the way Indian society is progressing, there is a reasonable chance that that will become a reality someday in the distant future. I can't say the same for Islam.
Originally posted by: athithi
Originally posted by: Sultan
Btw, there is a Mandir right down the street from where I live (in Pakistan). I dont know how you wish to qualify your statement that Muslims are far safer in India than Hindus in a Muslim country. Saudi Arabia has a LARGE Hindu workforce. So does Malaysia. As does Oman. You're just talking crap without any substance. I dont see Saudi Arabia or Malaysia having Hindu/Muslim riots. India does. Indeed India is a progressive state and I laud its development, but to point fingers at others when one's own house is not in order is just hypocritical.
Again, you do not have an answer to Aimster's question. I contended that all Muslim majority nations are doing what they can, and I cited examples of Pakistan, Indonesia and Saudi Arabia but you in your most articulate response dismissed that post and delved into providing flame baits.
And lastly, I care two hoots about you condemning Hinduism. Try and fix your own mess first and leave other's mess to themselves. That would be a more reconciliatory approach.
Let's start by counting the Hindu places of worship in Muslim countries and the Muslim places of worship in India...that should provide a good picture of religious freedom in both types of societies. No matter how you try to spin it, Hindus have a better handle on their extremist elements than Islam does on their own. I wish there were no Hindu terrorists today, but the way Indian society is progressing, there is a reasonable chance that that will become a reality someday in the distant future. I can't say the same for Islam.
lol
thats comparing apples to oranges. and then you accuse me of spinning :roll: As an example, Pakistan is 98% Muslim majority. the remaing 2% comprises of Christians, Hindus, Ahmedia, etc. India has over 150 million Muslims. Pakistan would have 3 million NON-Muslims. What do places of worship mean in the context of extremism anyways?
The Gujurat riots, razing of the Babri mosque and the Bombay riots STILL happened, regardless of existence of places of worship.You are still just trying to cite facts regardless of any existing evidence/s. So if Hindus do have a better handle on extremists, tell me what became of Mr. Narenda Modi, what became of the (only) 12 accused of the Gujurat riots and tell me why Mr. Advani, the chief perpetrator of the razing of Babri mosque was elected deputy Prime Minister.
Again, I repeat, Saudi Arabia has a significant Hindu workforce, as does Malaysia, as does Oman. No riots have happened there. So you were saying something about a "secular democracy" as compared to a "fundamentalist dictatorship/monarchy"?
edit: on some research, I found over 1200 mosques exist in the United States as compared to 200 temples. According to you, even that would be the fault of "Muslim extremists" :roll:
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: athithi
Originally posted by: Sultan
Btw, there is a Mandir right down the street from where I live (in Pakistan). I dont know how you wish to qualify your statement that Muslims are far safer in India than Hindus in a Muslim country. Saudi Arabia has a LARGE Hindu workforce. So does Malaysia. As does Oman. You're just talking crap without any substance. I dont see Saudi Arabia or Malaysia having Hindu/Muslim riots. India does. Indeed India is a progressive state and I laud its development, but to point fingers at others when one's own house is not in order is just hypocritical.
Again, you do not have an answer to Aimster's question. I contended that all Muslim majority nations are doing what they can, and I cited examples of Pakistan, Indonesia and Saudi Arabia but you in your most articulate response dismissed that post and delved into providing flame baits.
And lastly, I care two hoots about you condemning Hinduism. Try and fix your own mess first and leave other's mess to themselves. That would be a more reconciliatory approach.
Let's start by counting the Hindu places of worship in Muslim countries and the Muslim places of worship in India...that should provide a good picture of religious freedom in both types of societies. No matter how you try to spin it, Hindus have a better handle on their extremist elements than Islam does on their own. I wish there were no Hindu terrorists today, but the way Indian society is progressing, there is a reasonable chance that that will become a reality someday in the distant future. I can't say the same for Islam.
lol
thats comparing apples to oranges. and then you accuse me of spinning :roll: As an example, Pakistan is 98% Muslim majority. the remaing 2% comprises of Christians, Hindus, Ahmedia, etc. India has over 150 million Muslims. Pakistan would have 3 million NON-Muslims. What do places of worship mean in the context of extremism anyways?
You are still just trying to cite facts regardless of any existing evidence/s. So if Hindus do have a better handle on extremists, tell me what became of Mr. Narenda Modi, what became of the (only) 12 accused of the Gujurat riots and tell me why Mr. Advani, the chief perpetrator of the razing of Babri mosque was elected deputy Prime Minister.
Again, I repeat, Saudi Arabia has a significant Hindu workforce, as does Malaysia, as does Oman. No riots have happened there. So you were saying something about a "secular democracy" as compared to a "fundamentalist dictatorship/monarchy"?
Oh, only 2% non-Muslims? I wonder why...surely it wouldn't be because Pakistan didn't want any non-Muslims in the first place? I mean that would mean they were intolerant or something.....how could that be possible? Pakistan and Islamic fundamentalism and intolerance......nahhhh.....
1 Narendra Modi and 1 Advani, ex-deputy PM of India do not become equal to the numerous Islamic terrorists all over the world. BTW, I've had enough of your nonsense. You can go ahead and respond with some more of your brand of Islamic fundamentalistic BS, but I am not going to respond.
To anybody that reads Sultan's tripe and needs a clarification from me, please PM me. I'm tired of dealing with this bigot.
Originally posted by: athithi
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: athithi
Originally posted by: Sultan
Btw, there is a Mandir right down the street from where I live (in Pakistan). I dont know how you wish to qualify your statement that Muslims are far safer in India than Hindus in a Muslim country. Saudi Arabia has a LARGE Hindu workforce. So does Malaysia. As does Oman. You're just talking crap without any substance. I dont see Saudi Arabia or Malaysia having Hindu/Muslim riots. India does. Indeed India is a progressive state and I laud its development, but to point fingers at others when one's own house is not in order is just hypocritical.
Again, you do not have an answer to Aimster's question. I contended that all Muslim majority nations are doing what they can, and I cited examples of Pakistan, Indonesia and Saudi Arabia but you in your most articulate response dismissed that post and delved into providing flame baits.
And lastly, I care two hoots about you condemning Hinduism. Try and fix your own mess first and leave other's mess to themselves. That would be a more reconciliatory approach.
Let's start by counting the Hindu places of worship in Muslim countries and the Muslim places of worship in India...that should provide a good picture of religious freedom in both types of societies. No matter how you try to spin it, Hindus have a better handle on their extremist elements than Islam does on their own. I wish there were no Hindu terrorists today, but the way Indian society is progressing, there is a reasonable chance that that will become a reality someday in the distant future. I can't say the same for Islam.
lol
thats comparing apples to oranges. and then you accuse me of spinning :roll: As an example, Pakistan is 98% Muslim majority. the remaing 2% comprises of Christians, Hindus, Ahmedia, etc. India has over 150 million Muslims. Pakistan would have 3 million NON-Muslims. What do places of worship mean in the context of extremism anyways?
You are still just trying to cite facts regardless of any existing evidence/s. So if Hindus do have a better handle on extremists, tell me what became of Mr. Narenda Modi, what became of the (only) 12 accused of the Gujurat riots and tell me why Mr. Advani, the chief perpetrator of the razing of Babri mosque was elected deputy Prime Minister.
Again, I repeat, Saudi Arabia has a significant Hindu workforce, as does Malaysia, as does Oman. No riots have happened there. So you were saying something about a "secular democracy" as compared to a "fundamentalist dictatorship/monarchy"?
Oh, only 2% non-Muslims? I wonder why...surely it wouldn't be because Pakistan didn't want any non-Muslims in the first place? I mean that would mean they were intolerant or something.....how could that be possible? Pakistan and Islamic fundamentalism and intolerance......nahhhh.....
1 Narendra Modi and 1 Advani, ex-deputy PM of India do not become equal to the numerous Islamic terrorists all over the world. BTW, I've had enough of your nonsense. You can go ahead and respond with some more of your brand of Islamic fundamentalistic BS, but I am not going to respond.
To anybody that reads Sultan's tripe and needs a clarification from me, please PM me. I'm tired of dealing with this bigot.
haha. yeah, im sure your reasoning is correct. Pakistanis were intolerant in 1947 and they are now, and thats why there is a Mandir right down the street from where I live. Suuuuure :roll: Everyone of course has heard of the massacre of Hindus and Hindu/Muslim riots in Pakistan because Pakistanis are intolerant... NOT!
anyone can look over the net and find Hindu places of worship here in the USA compared to Muslim places of worship. I found over 1200 mosques exist in the United States as compared to 200 temples. According to you, even that would be the fault of "Muslim extremists"
1 Narenda Modi was (partially) responsible for the Gujurat massacre in which thousands died. 1 Advani was (partially) responsible for the razing of Babri mosque and the subsequent riots. In this same manner, I can say 1 OBL was responsible for 9/11. :roll: This goes to serve my own premise that no religion/race/creed is free from its bad elements, and also goes to show that you should sort out your own house before pointing fingers at others. What a joke!
Thank you for not responding, because all that you dish out is utter nonsense.
Ganesh is pleased that you have quit trying to lie to all AT members
Have a nice day!:roll:
Wow, what a fantastic example!
Of course since Sultan is a bigot he must think that Saudi Arabia is a great example to use.
Allah commands you to stone yourself.
I think your premise is correct. Poverty will breed more extremism.
Sultan is a fanatic though. He supports the Taliban, the murder of his own future children, the discrimination of all non-Muslims, as well as apparently the molestation of his own children. Allah hates him, too.
Wow. SA is not a good example. The workforce he's referring to are the second-class slave class.
Al-Quidas terrorists in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, and Chechnya are Arabic.
The recent school bombings were mostly arabic, Osama himself is hiding in pakistan (we think), Afghanistan was their safe haven for years... The people being sought for the indonesian bombing of the night club are arabic...
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter