How rich is the Catholic Church?

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: sygyzy
The ridiculousness of this topic astounds me. The OP makes it sound like he's asking a legitimate question, but he can't help himself and interjects anti-religious statements.

GagHalfrunt suggests that "a lot" of it has gone to court settlements for victims. That implies a majority. I would bet the monies paid to victims are a drop in the bucket compared to how much money the church has.

JS80, "The Big Tipper," pulls this gem out of his ass - "I would imagine the Catholic Church is worth approximately 10x whatever their Balance Sheet claims." Based on what?!?!?! Why not 12x or 8x?

Then m1ldslide1 tries to contribute with more silliness and passes it off as fact. Are we just posting from our freshman creative writing class now? I don't have a problem with church criticism but what's the point of post after post of theories?

I can play along. Let's talk about IBM. Yeah I bet they have some atrocities they don't want us to know about. Like their involvement with the Germans in WW2. I mean why don't they open up ALL their files and records for the public to peruse. You know, because that's what companies like to do. They like to just leave their doors unlocked to see. And yeah, I bet their director of marketing is a cross-dresser. Yeah, that's the ticket. And man, I bet they actually didn't build Big Blue. I bet Toshiba did but they didn't get any credit for that.

So you admit that the church is just a business then? I'm glad that we are all on like terms now.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: sygyzy
JS80, "The Big Tipper," pulls this gem out of his ass - "I would imagine the Catholic Church is worth approximately 10x whatever their Balance Sheet claims." Based on what?!?!?! Why not 12x or 8x?

Based on conservative estimates of recent transactions (Sears buying Kmart - Kmart's real estate was worth 20x what it was on the balance sheet assuming it's business was worthless) and case studies I remember from college (McDonald's, Wal-Mart, Catholic Church). You're right though, I chose 10x because it's round and easy for you simpletons to understand, which I guess would have been as good as 12x or 8x. I would imagine though it's more like 100x because the real estate they purchased goes back to early 1000s or before.

fixed

 

[MotionMan]

Originally posted by: TallBill

Originally posted by: sygyzy
The ridiculousness of this topic astounds me. The OP makes it sound like he's asking a legitimate question, but he can't help himself and interjects anti-religious statements.

GagHalfrunt suggests that "a lot" of it has gone to court settlements for victims. That implies a majority. I would bet the monies paid to victims are a drop in the bucket compared to how much money the church has.

JS80, "The Big Tipper," pulls this gem out of his ass - "I would imagine the Catholic Church is worth approximately 10x whatever their Balance Sheet claims." Based on what?!?!?! Why not 12x or 8x?

Then m1ldslide1 tries to contribute with more silliness and passes it off as fact. Are we just posting from our freshman creative writing class now? I don't have a problem with church criticism but what's the point of post after post of theories?

I can play along. Let's talk about IBM. Yeah I bet they have some atrocities they don't want us to know about. Like their involvement with the Germans in WW2. I mean why don't they open up ALL their files and records for the public to peruse. You know, because that's what companies like to do. They like to just leave their doors unlocked to see. And yeah, I bet their director of marketing is a cross-dresser. Yeah, that's the ticket. And man, I bet they actually didn't build Big Blue. I bet Toshiba did but they didn't get any credit for that.

So you admit that the church is just a business then? I'm glad that we are all on like terms now.

The church is a private organization that has various interests, like any other organization. Promoting the religion is only one of those interests. Making money is another as, without money, the church cannot function.

So, the church is very much like a business, but not in the simpleton sort of way you imply.

MotionMan

 

[m1ldslide1]

Originally posted by: sygyzy

Then m1ldslide1 tries to contribute with more silliness and passes it off as fact. Are we just posting from our freshman creative writing class now? I don't have a problem with church criticism but what's the point of post after post of theories?

I absolutely agree that I was contributing more silliness, but the entire post was conjecture, so I don't know how you can tell me I'm passing it off as fact? I think it's reasonable to assume that all of the stuff I mentioned is present, but that doesn't mean I was asserting that it is in fact there.

And yeah, I think we should talk about IBM and their contributions to the concentration camps. We should also talk about Coca-Cola creating Fanta so they could keep doing business with the Nazis and keep Americans in the dark about it. I think that everything discussed carries a common theme - it needs to be in the public consciousness so that we can constantly evaluate how it is these businesses are allowed to operate.

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: MotionMan

The church is a private organization that has various interests, like any other organization. Promoting the religion is only one of those interests. Making money is another as, without money, the church cannot function.

So, the church is very much like a business, but not in the simpleton sort of way you imply.

MotionMan

I disagree. Men have gained power and money from scaring other men since men existed.

 

[xochi]

The Catholic Church is not linked together financially all the way to rome, at least not in the US. For exapmple, The Boston diocese is fiscally completely seperate from the Fort Worth diocese. One could be near financial collapse the other filthy rich. Also, each Catholic order is also independent of each other, List of Catholic orders

 

[Viper0329]

Perhaps I can add my two cents. As stated earlier, it's pretty much impossible to put a dollar figure amount on how much the Church owns. First, the Church owns many of the world's most priceless treasures, from works of art, to historical documents, records, buildings, churches, etc. The Vatican Museum alone is a monstrous entity. Plus, the most valuable pieces are just valued at $0, such as St. Peter's and the Sistine Chapel. They are considered invaluable to the history of mankind, thus they don't attempt to put a solid figure. Also, a diocese operates autonomously according to its fiscal policy. This makes it nearly impossible to create a figure of the entire Church around the world. Each bishop is in charge of his own diocese's assets, not Rome.

I've always wondered what all they have shut up in the Vatican. I would imagine that it would be some pretty damn controversial stuff, otherwise it would probably be open to public perusal. Stuff like dozens of additional and contradicting gospels, treasures and relics that were stolen from other religions/civilizations, probably some gnarly stuff pointing directly to mass atrocities committed by the church, etc and so on.

The one thing you can be sure they don't have locked away is any physical evidence of Christianity - if they had it, they would've used it, and they would be running the show across the whole world by now.

I can tell you that the Church doesn't have many secrets locked up anywhere. Even the contents of the Vatican Secret Archives are listed on the Vatican's websites. It mainly consists of documents from the Churches history, such as from Ecumenical Councils or different things that people have written, or just records.

All of the known texts written in the past are well known and can be read freely. These "hidden gospels" and things are usually just accepted to be gnostic texts, or from highly unreliable sources, such as the Gospel according to Peter, the Gospel of Thomas, the Acts of Thomas, Paul, or Andrew, the Protevangelium of James, etc. There are many works classified as apocryphal that are not accepted in the canon of Sacred Scripture by any Christian religion. Many of these texts do contradict, and it's no secret.

The history of the Catholic Church as well is not shrouded in secrecy. From the Crusades to the most recent scandal of abuse by priests, members of the Church have had their fair share of mistakes, and dare I say atrocities, in the course of history.

As far as physical evidence of Christianity, there's lots of physical evidence for Christianity, but no proof that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, the Son of God. I'm not quite sure what you might be referring to. It's an almost universally accepted fact that the person referred to as Jesus Christ was a historical figure who lived somewhere between the years of 10 B.C. - ~35 A.D. Very few respected historians will argue that he did not exist as a man in human history, but many question whether he was the Son of God, the Christ, the Messiah, etc. as taught and believed by Christians.

There are many physical artifacts that exist in museums and churches around the world from all parts of Christian history. There are churches in Rome, for example, that claim to have relics from the crucifixion of Jesus. There is no possible way to be absolutely sure that these relics or artifacts were used 2000 years ago in his crucifixion, but it's not impossible. Many of the relics in possession of the Church have reasonable justification that they are as claimed, others do not. There's nothing in Catholic dogma that says it must be believed in order to be faithful to the teachings of the Church. It's a matter of individual faith.

In the end, it's not about material evidence for proving that Jesus was the Son of God. There is none. Faith wouldn't be of any use, then, and the act of believing in God would not be as great of an act of love on the part of a person. If God's existence could be proven by human reason, He wouldn't be God. Faith is a mystery.

 

[xochi]

Originally posted by: Viper0329
Perhaps I can add my two cents. As stated earlier, it's pretty much impossible to put a dollar figure amount on how much the Church owns. First, the Church owns many of the world's most priceless treasures, from works of art, to historical documents, records, buildings, churches, etc. The Vatican Museum alone is a monstrous entity. Plus, the most valuable pieces are just valued at $0, such as St. Peter's and the Sistine Chapel. They are considered invaluable to the history of mankind, thus they don't attempt to put a solid figure. Also, a diocese operates autonomously according to its fiscal policy. This makes it nearly impossible to create a figure of the entire Church around the world. Each bishop is in charge of his own diocese's assets, not Rome.

I've always wondered what all they have shut up in the Vatican. I would imagine that it would be some pretty damn controversial stuff, otherwise it would probably be open to public perusal. Stuff like dozens of additional and contradicting gospels, treasures and relics that were stolen from other religions/civilizations, probably some gnarly stuff pointing directly to mass atrocities committed by the church, etc and so on.

The one thing you can be sure they don't have locked away is any physical evidence of Christianity - if they had it, they would've used it, and they would be running the show across the whole world by now.

I can tell you that the Church doesn't have many secrets locked up anywhere. Even the contents of the Vatican Secret Archives are listed on the Vatican's websites. It mainly consists of documents from the Churches history, such as from Ecumenical Councils or different things that people have written, or just records.

All of the known texts written in the past are well known and can be read freely. These "hidden gospels" and things are usually just accepted to be gnostic texts, or from highly unreliable sources, such as the Gospel according to Peter, the Gospel of Thomas, the Acts of Thomas, Paul, or Andrew, the Protevangelium of James, etc. There are many works classified as apocryphal that are not accepted in the canon of Sacred Scripture by any Christian religion. Many of these texts do contradict, and it's no secret.

The history of the Catholic Church as well is not shrouded in secrecy. From the Crusades to the most recent scandal of abuse by priests, members of the Church have had their fair share of mistakes, and dare I say atrocities, in the course of history.

As far as physical evidence of Christianity, there's lots of physical evidence for Christianity, but no proof that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, the Son of God. I'm not quite sure what you might be referring to. It's an almost universally accepted fact that the person referred to as Jesus Christ was a historical figure who lived somewhere between the years of 10 B.C. - ~35 A.D. Very few respected historians will argue that he did not exist as a man in human history, but many question whether he was the Son of God, the Christ, the Messiah, etc. as taught and believed by Christians.

There are many physical artifacts that exist in museums and churches around the world from all parts of Christian history. There are churches in Rome, for example, that claim to have relics from the crucifixion of Jesus. There is no possible way to be absolutely sure that these relics or artifacts were used 2000 years ago in his crucifixion, but it's not impossible. Many of the relics in possession of the Church have reasonable justification that they are as claimed, others do not. There's nothing in Catholic dogma that says it must be believed in order to be faithful to the teachings of the Church. It's a matter of individual faith.

In the end, it's not about material evidence for proving that Jesus was the Son of God. There is none. Faith wouldn't be of any use, then, and the act of believing in God would not be as great of an act of love on the part of a person. If God's existence could be proven by human reason, He wouldn't be God. Faith is a mystery.

Well said:thumbsup:

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Originally posted by: xochi


The Catholic Church is not linked together financially all the way to rome, at least not in the US. For exapmple, The Boston diocese is fiscally completely seperate from the Fort Worth diocese. One could be near financial collapse the other filthy rich. Also, each Catholic order is also independent of each other, List of Catholic orders

On paper this is true but you know the catholic church can hand down judgements to these "seperate entities" and they will obey.

 

[m1ldslide1]

Originally posted by: Viper0329
Perhaps I can add my two cents. As stated earlier, it's pretty much impossible to put a dollar figure amount on how much the Church owns. First, the Church owns many of the world's most priceless treasures, from works of art, to historical documents, records, buildings, churches, etc. The Vatican Museum alone is a monstrous entity. Plus, the most valuable pieces are just valued at $0, such as St. Peter's and the Sistine Chapel. They are considered invaluable to the history of mankind, thus they don't attempt to put a solid figure. Also, a diocese operates autonomously according to its fiscal policy. This makes it nearly impossible to create a figure of the entire Church around the world. Each bishop is in charge of his own diocese's assets, not Rome.

I've always wondered what all they have shut up in the Vatican. I would imagine that it would be some pretty damn controversial stuff, otherwise it would probably be open to public perusal. Stuff like dozens of additional and contradicting gospels, treasures and relics that were stolen from other religions/civilizations, probably some gnarly stuff pointing directly to mass atrocities committed by the church, etc and so on.

The one thing you can be sure they don't have locked away is any physical evidence of Christianity - if they had it, they would've used it, and they would be running the show across the whole world by now.

I can tell you that the Church doesn't have many secrets locked up anywhere. Even the contents of the Vatican Secret Archives are listed on the Vatican's websites. It mainly consists of documents from the Churches history, such as from Ecumenical Councils or different things that people have written, or just records.

All of the known texts written in the past are well known and can be read freely. These "hidden gospels" and things are usually just accepted to be gnostic texts, or from highly unreliable sources, such as the Gospel according to Peter, the Gospel of Thomas, the Acts of Thomas, Paul, or Andrew, the Protevangelium of James, etc. There are many works classified as apocryphal that are not accepted in the canon of Sacred Scripture by any Christian religion. Many of these texts do contradict, and it's no secret.

The history of the Catholic Church as well is not shrouded in secrecy. From the Crusades to the most recent scandal of abuse by priests, members of the Church have had their fair share of mistakes, and dare I say atrocities, in the course of history.

As far as physical evidence of Christianity, there's lots of physical evidence for Christianity, but no proof that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, the Son of God. I'm not quite sure what you might be referring to. It's an almost universally accepted fact that the person referred to as Jesus Christ was a historical figure who lived somewhere between the years of 10 B.C. - ~35 A.D. Very few respected historians will argue that he did not exist as a man in human history, but many question whether he was the Son of God, the Christ, the Messiah, etc. as taught and believed by Christians.

There are many physical artifacts that exist in museums and churches around the world from all parts of Christian history. There are churches in Rome, for example, that claim to have relics from the crucifixion of Jesus. There is no possible way to be absolutely sure that these relics or artifacts were used 2000 years ago in his crucifixion, but it's not impossible. Many of the relics in possession of the Church have reasonable justification that they are as claimed, others do not. There's nothing in Catholic dogma that says it must be believed in order to be faithful to the teachings of the Church. It's a matter of individual faith.

In the end, it's not about material evidence for proving that Jesus was the Son of God. There is none. Faith wouldn't be of any use, then, and the act of believing in God would not be as great of an act of love on the part of a person. If God's existence could be proven by human reason, He wouldn't be God. Faith is a mystery.

Yes, it was well said. I guess I'll be more clear about the 'physical evidence' part - I mean real supernatural effects, like bleeding statues or other super spooky stuff. I can buy that jesus lived and died, but it's obviously the supernatural part that hangs most people up. There was another thread having to do with what it would take for you to believe in God or something like that, and that's kind of the subject matter I'm referring to. Of course, not including the assinine responses people gave in that thread.

As for the secret stuff - like evidence of some really nasty stuff - I'll stand corrected in my speculation until I see something that says otherwise. I don't have much motivation to go searching, so I think I'll stand corrected for the time being. There's other stuff to daydream about after all.

 

[dbk]

If you knew, God would have to kill you

 

[SnipeMasterJ13]

They told me it's about $38. 17.

 

[JTsyo]

Nothing is really priceless, the price is determined by how much someone is willing to pay for it. If the church put one of it's older churches for sale, they would only get finites offers. Whatever they end up choosing would be the price of the church.

 

[Viper0329]

Originally posted by: m1ldslide1
...

Yes, it was well said. I guess I'll be more clear about the 'physical evidence' part - I mean real supernatural effects, like bleeding statues or other super spooky stuff. I can buy that jesus lived and died, but it's obviously the supernatural part that hangs most people up. There was another thread having to do with what it would take for you to believe in God or something like that, and that's kind of the subject matter I'm referring to. Of course, not including the assinine responses people gave in that thread.

As for the secret stuff - like evidence of some really nasty stuff - I'll stand corrected in my speculation until I see something that says otherwise. I don't have much motivation to go searching, so I think I'll stand corrected for the time being. There's other stuff to daydream about after all.

Sure, I'm glad to hear a voice of reason. As for those sorts of things, which we would classify under miracles, I have come to respect the Church's stance on these issues. The bottom line is this--it's not a necessary condition for faith. There are things the Church officially accepts as miracles, which are very, very, very few in comparison to the number of proposed "miracles." When presented with such an instance, the Church is very skeptical and will ask every question; thorough investigations will be held, including cutting edge research by scientists. Then, only after a set of questions has been answered and a list of conditions met will the Church then give official approval. But I must reiterate that the Church has never said that any miracle is a necessary condition or a cause for faith. They may aide a person in coming to know God in a personal and intimate way, but they are never a cause of faith.

I hope it helps.

I do have to say though, people love conspiracies. And the Church, being one of the oldest and largest institutions in the world, makes a good candidate for them.

 

[antyler]

too rich

 

[LS21]

Originally posted by: JTsyo
Nothing is really priceless, the price is determined by how much someone is willing to pay for it. If the church put one of it's older churches for sale, they would only get finites offers. Whatever they end up choosing would be the price of the church.

+++
nothing is truly priceless. theres always a rich wacko out there willing to buy anything

 

[Injury]

The worth of something is only as much as someone is willing to pay for it and/or the cost of replacing it.

Regardless, if you ever want to know how much money a church took in during a year, that information usually isn't a big secret... many churches print it right in the bulletins they hand out after services but simply asking might give you results.

 

[Modelworks]

We will never know.
They have so much stocked up inside the vatican that not even the pope knows all thats there.