How NVIDIA’s product stack should look like.

zliqdedo

Member
Dec 10, 2010
59
10
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GTX 780 Ti
Cores: 2880
Memory Clock: 6GHz or more
Memory Bus: 384-bit
Memory Capacity: 3GB or 4GB
Price: $649

GTX 780
Cores: 2688
Memory Clock: 6GHz or more
Memory Bus: 320-bit
Memory Capacity: 2.5GB or 3GB
Price: $499

GTX 770
Cores: 2496
Memory Clock: 6GHz or more
Memory Bus: 320-bit
Memory Capacity: 2.5GB or 3GB
Price: $399

GTX 760 Ti
Cores: 1536
Memory Clock: 6GHz
Memory Bus: 256-bit
Memory Capacity: 2GB
Price: $299

GTX 760
Cores: 1344
Memory Clock: 6GHz
Memory Bus: 256-bit
Memory Capacity: 2GB
Price: $249

And, perhaps, a dual-GPU card with the performance of 2x 780s (non-Ti)
GTX 790
Cores: 2x 2880
Memory Clock: 6GHz
Memory Bus: 2x 384-bit
Memory Capacity: 2x 3GB or 4GB
Price: $999

Note that those are the highest prices NVIDIA should charge; ideally they would be $499, $349, $299, $249, $219 and $699 for the dual-GPU solution since we’re talking about the refresh of an architecture on a matured process (TSMC’s 28nm in this case).

Whether or not a fully enabled GK110 should/can be available is another matter, if not the 2688 cores configuration would have to be flagship and thus ship with a 384-bit bus (rather than 320-bit), but shouldn’t cost more than $499.

With Kepler NVIDIA deviated from tradition by introducing their ‘medium’-sized GPU first. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that, however, they also did something else. They priced the video card based on that GPU at twice the usual price and advertised it as a flagship product. Even if NVIDIA felt it should cost more, it shouldn’t have been more than $299. When they introduced their ‘big’ GPU, a year late and with 1 SMX disabled, the price was again two times more at $999.

In my opinion, the fact that your architecture performs really well, doesn’t mean you have to charge twice the norm for it; that’s practically ripping off the consumer just because you can. What would happen if Intel suddenly decided they have to charge more for new architectures and, say, ask $460 for a quad-core K-series i5 part… By charging so much NVIDIA is not simply making new hardware less accessible to the public, but also effectively impeding microprocessor evolution The Way it’s Meant to be, ouch. Not to mention software development as well – as a game dev you can’t afford to target hardware most people cannot afford.

Yes, Intel charges $999 for some processors but that’s very different. Those are off-norm, usually six-core configuration (when most consumer software targets two/four cores) which are meant for a different market. The mobile extreme series CPUs are a bit overkill at $999, but that’s okay since unlocked mobile parts for overclocking are truly a niche. The flagship consumer CPU costs $329 and most people wouldn’t need anything more than an i5 K part for $229. $499 for a GPU is high enough already, granted you’re buying a whole video card (PCB, memory, more complicated cooler than Intel’s stock solution, etc.) but that’s all factored in already. Also, we can’t escape the fact that OEMs charge even more for premium offerings.

Don’t get me wrong, I like NVIDIA very much – the processors they design, their developer relations and driver team. The prices they’ve recently started to pursue are vulgar and unacceptable though. AMD’s GCN architecture is sound and there’s room for improvement, their developer relations are also picking up speed – thing look much brighter than before. Intel has finally entered the GPU space with a tiny, but very efficient architecture. There’s nowhere with developer relations and driver support, yet – they certainly have the resources to change that. Image what would a hypothetical dedicated Intel GPU with 160 EUs and stacked DRAM do. NVIDIA has to get back to normal pricing, obviously it wouldn’t really happen with this generation – it’s already too late. Here’s hoping that Maxwell brings balance to the force once again.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
GTX 780 Ti
Cores: 2880
Memory Clock: 6GHz or more
Memory Bus: 384-bit
Memory Capacity: 3GB or 4GB
Price: $649

GTX 780
Cores: 2688
Memory Clock: 6GHz or more
Memory Bus: 320-bit
Memory Capacity: 2.5GB or 3GB
Price: $499

GTX 770
Cores: 2496
Memory Clock: 6GHz or more
Memory Bus: 320-bit
Memory Capacity: 2.5GB or 3GB
Price: $399

GTX 760 Ti
Cores: 1536
Memory Clock: 6GHz
Memory Bus: 256-bit
Memory Capacity: 2GB
Price: $299

GTX 760
Cores: 1344
Memory Clock: 6GHz
Memory Bus: 256-bit
Memory Capacity: 2GB
Price: $249

And, perhaps, a dual-GPU card with the performance of 2x 780s (non-Ti)
GTX 790
Cores: 2x 2880
Memory Clock: 6GHz
Memory Bus: 2x 384-bit
Memory Capacity: 2x 3GB or 4GB
Price: $999

Note that those are the highest prices NVIDIA should charge; ideally they would be $499, $349, $299, $249, $219 and $699 for the dual-GPU solution since we’re talking about the refresh of an architecture on a matured process (TSMC’s 28nm in this case).

Whether or not a fully enabled GK110 should/can be available is another matter, if not the 2688 cores configuration would have to be flagship and thus ship with a 384-bit bus (rather than 320-bit), but shouldn’t cost more than $499.

With Kepler NVIDIA deviated from tradition by introducing their ‘medium’-sized GPU first. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that, however, they also did something else. They priced the video card based on that GPU at twice the usual price and advertised it as a flagship product. Even if NVIDIA felt it should cost more, it shouldn’t have been more than $299. When they introduced their ‘big’ GPU, a year late and with 1 SMX disabled, the price was again two times more at $999.

In my opinion, the fact that your architecture performs really well, doesn’t mean you have to charge twice the norm for it; that’s practically ripping off the consumer just because you can. What would happen if Intel suddenly decided they have to charge more for new architectures and, say, ask $460 for a quad-core K-series i5 part… By charging so much NVIDIA is not simply making new hardware less accessible to the public, but also effectively impeding microprocessor evolution The Way it’s Meant to be, ouch. Not to mention software development as well – as a game dev you can’t afford to target hardware most people cannot afford.

Yes, Intel charges $999 for some processors but that’s very different. Those are off-norm, usually six-core configuration (when most consumer software targets two/four cores) which are meant for a different market. The mobile extreme series CPUs are a bit overkill at $999, but that’s okay since unlocked mobile parts for overclocking are truly a niche. The flagship consumer CPU costs $329 and most people wouldn’t need anything more than an i5 K part for $229. $499 for a GPU is high enough already, granted you’re buying a whole video card (PCB, memory, more complicated cooler than Intel’s stock solution, etc.) but that’s all factored in already. Also, we can’t escape the fact that OEMs charge even more for premium offerings.

Don’t get me wrong, I like NVIDIA very much – the processors they design, their developer relations and driver team. The prices they’ve recently started to pursue are vulgar and unacceptable though. AMD’s GCN architecture is sound and there’s room for improvement, their developer relations are also picking up speed – thing look much brighter than before. Intel has finally entered the GPU space with a tiny, but very efficient architecture. There’s nowhere with developer relations and driver support, yet – they certainly have the resources to change that. Image what would a hypothetical dedicated Intel GPU with 160 EUs and stacked DRAM do. NVIDIA has to get back to normal pricing, obviously it wouldn’t really happen with this generation – it’s already too late. Here’s hoping that Maxwell brings balance to the force once again.

How much did the 8800 Ultra cost at launch, adjusted for inflation?
 

zliqdedo

Member
Dec 10, 2010
59
10
81
How much did the 8800 Ultra cost at launch, adjusted for inflation?
Funny. About $914.84, but that's not the point - it's about the status of a thousand dollar card. So it really cost just what it did - $829. Anyway, what's your point? That NVIDIA attempted to do this before... and failed? We should, perhaps, start talking about the GTX 280 next. A company trying to make more money is nothing new and will keep happening in every industry. The thing is, I don't think the consumer marker for GPUs is where NVIDIA should be trying to go for it (reasons mentioned in original post). It's not like video cards are cheap. Just like Intel, NVIDIA should seek huge margins in other segments, namely with their Tesla and Quadro series.
 

tviceman

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2008
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Funny. About $914.84, but that's not the point - it's about the status of a thousand dollar card. So it really cost just what it did - $829. Anyway, what's your point? That NVIDIA attempted to do this before... and failed?

How did the 8800 Ultra fail?

The thing is, I don't think the consumer marker for GPUs is where NVIDIA should be trying to go for it (reasons mentioned in original post). It's not like video cards are cheap. Just like Intel, NVIDIA should seek huge margins in other segments, namely with their Tesla and Quadro series.

The market will determine whether or not Nvidia is out pricing themselves. Regardless of what you think they "should" do, as many have pointed out, a 5% speed bump in GK104 will more or less match an hd7970GE. AMD's die is 25% larger, will have the same performance and the same price, and Nvidia is using less complex PCB's so naturally Nvidia will be making more money. Why the heck would they want to start a price war when they don't have to?
 
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DooKey

Golden Member
Nov 9, 2005
1,811
458
136
I love these threads. No one is entitled to low priced video cards. The market determines the price. Nvidia is making nice money in the current market and there's no reason for them to change at this time.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
Can we vote to change the title to "How much I want to pretend I, an average nobody running nothing, think I can run NVIDIA better than those that are running it now"?
 

zliqdedo

Member
Dec 10, 2010
59
10
81
Wow, I got so flamed it hurts. I never pretended to know how to run a company, I never said I was entitled to cheap video cards (although I don't think $500-$650 is cheap anyway) - I don't even buy high-performance video cards or play video games. Your points are valid, more or less, I too made them in the original post - the conclusions are different. I still believe what I said is valid - NVIDIA 'shouldn't' be playing the margins game with their GeForce line, they 'should' rather give power to the people. It's great that they have a superior architecture. Where would we be today if Intel had decided to match AMD's CPUs on a performance/price basis? A 3770K would have to cost two grand, and the level of mainstream CPU performance we enjoy today would be nowhere to be seen.

If you guys find this thread so offensive and lame just say the word and I'll take it down.
 

wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
3,180
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Most of the people who are going to flame you have a financial interest (or other ties) in the company.

As for the consumer standpoint, most people will agree. The problem is the people that are financially invested in these companies are going to try justify raping the consumers and make you out to be a communist etc. for wondering what is up with the insane price premiums.

You don't need to take the thread down for a few investors or people otherwise tied to a company.
 

SirPauly

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2009
5,187
1
0
The key though is how does the product stack compare to market pricing and competition?

Ideally, would like your speculation to come to fruition and will be fun to see how your speculation compares to the 7XX family, when offered.

Thanks for the thread.
 

Ketchup

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2002
14,545
236
106
Companies will charge as much as the market will allow them. Nvidia, AMD, Intel, anybody. They are not going to lower their prices for no good reason.

If they see their market share start plummeting, prepare to see prices that are more to your liking.
 

BUnit1701

Senior member
May 1, 2013
853
1
0
Companies will charge as much as the market will allow them. Nvidia, AMD, Intel, anybody. They are not going to lower their prices for no good reason.

If they see their market share start plummeting, prepare to see prices that are more to your liking.

Exactly, when people stop paying top dollar for these cards, the prices will start to come down. Until then, brace yourself.
 

zliqdedo

Member
Dec 10, 2010
59
10
81
Thank you to all that are supportive - I won't take the thread down.

@ketchup79 This is not about my liking or not at all.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Most of the people who are going to flame you have a financial interest (or other ties) in the company.

As for the consumer standpoint, most people will agree. The problem is the people that are financially invested in these companies are going to try justify raping the consumers and make you out to be a communist etc. for wondering what is up with the insane price premiums.

You don't need to take the thread down for a few investors or people otherwise tied to a company.

You mean like stockholders?

@OP. No need to take the thread down regardless of what anyone says. Also, it is now owned by Anandtech so you couldn't take it down even if you wanted to. :D
 

Ibra

Member
Oct 17, 2012
184
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zliqdedo and wand3r3r are so AMD's lunatics. Don't have money for Nvidia GPU and cries. :biggrin: What's next zliqdedo? Petroleum is nature's property why I have to pay for it?

You were just warned about the consequences of calling people AMD lunatics. It didn't sink in, so hopefully some time away from posting wil do the trick.
Administrator allisolm
 
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badb0y

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2010
4,015
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Market determines prices and I doubt AMD has any plans to severely undercut nVidia like they did back in GT 2xx/HD 4xxx era.
 

zliqdedo

Member
Dec 10, 2010
59
10
81
Yeah, don't blame Nvidia, blame the people throwing money at Nvidia.
This, precisely this seems so utterly paradoxical. You are correct, but we could also turns things over and take a look at the other side, the NVIDIA side. If they charge 'normally', they 'would' (very likely) make a bigger profit than they currently are - many people that are now buying/considering Radeons would be forced otherwise; AMD fanboy or not, you cannot dispute superior raw processing power (normalized). Of course, AMD won't stand still and would respond, somehow. And this kind of competition forges true progress. You have to understand, I'm looking at this from a, mostly, scientific and evolutionary point of view. Undoubtedly, money plays - every industry is intricately link to it and driven by it, money is everything. However, I believe there must be a balance between 'business' people and 'creative' people so that we can effectively move forward.

@Keysplayr I could edit out the OP and leave it blank, but as I said I won't do it.

zliqdedo and wand3r3r are so AMD's lunatics. Don't have money for Nvidia GPU and cries. :biggrin: What's next zliqdedo? Petroleum is nature's property why I have to pay for it?
I do not own a single AMD component, on the contrary - I think AMD needs to get much more competitive (especially on the CPU front) and fast or risk losing the position/market share it has enjoyed in the past if it hasn't already.

You meant to say petrol, you pay for petrol because it costs to extract oil and refine it into a fuel usable by the internal-combustion engine in your car. Also, natural resources are considered a 'property' of the country they're found in. Of course, things, as usual, are much more complicated. Have a nice day.
 
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Will Robinson

Golden Member
Dec 19, 2009
1,408
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Ibra:
zliqdedo and wand3r3r are so AMD's lunatics. Don't have money for Nvidia GPU and cries. :biggrin: What's next zliqdedo? Petroleum is nature's property why I have to pay for it?

Lame troll :thumbsdown: seek help.
 

Face2Face

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2001
4,100
215
106
No competition = means more $$$ for company A or N

This has been going on for a long time now..... Nothing new..
 

wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
3,180
0
0
You mean like stockholders?

@OP. No need to take the thread down regardless of what anyone says. Also, it is now owned by Anandtech so you couldn't take it down even if you wanted to. :D

I mean with ties to companies. (Not limited to the company in the thread) You can use your imagination for this one.

zliqdedo and wand3r3r are so AMD's lunatics. Don't have money for Nvidia GPU and cries. :biggrin: What's next zliqdedo? Petroleum is nature's property why I have to pay for it?

It will be peaceful without you around once you (presumably) get banned.

Market determines prices and I doubt AMD has any plans to severely undercut nVidia like they did back in GT 2xx/HD 4xxx era.

Yep, I think we'll have the same discussion when 20nm hits and AMD has the early lead.

They have shown their price gouging ability with the 7990.
 

96Firebird

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 2010
5,711
316
126
Companies will charge as much as the market will allow them. Nvidia, AMD, Intel, anybody. They are not going to lower their prices for no good reason.

If they see their market share start plummeting, prepare to see prices that are more to your liking.

And this post brings everyone back to reality. :thumbsup:
 

Ketchup

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2002
14,545
236
106
And this post brings everyone back to reality. :thumbsup:

Thank you Firebird, but I don't think this thread is going to make it:

It will be peaceful without you around once you (presumably) get banned.
and
Lame troll seek help.
in reply to
zliqdedo and wand3r3r are so AMD's lunatics. Don't have money for Nvidia GPU and cries. What's next zliqdedo? Petroleum is nature's property why I have to pay for it?

Really tech-related conversations going on here.... not.
 

chimaxi83

Diamond Member
May 18, 2003
5,649
61
101
zliqdedo and wand3r3r are so AMD's lunatics. Don't have money for Nvidia GPU and cries. :biggrin: What's next zliqdedo? Petroleum is nature's property why I have to pay for it?

Says the 13 year old running Geforce 6150SE integrated video :colbert:
 

tviceman

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2008
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Most of the people who are going to flame you have a financial interest (or other ties) in the company.

As for the consumer standpoint, most people will agree. The problem is the people that are financially invested in these companies are going to try justify raping the consumers and make you out to be a communist etc. for wondering what is up with the insane price premiums.

You don't need to take the thread down for a few investors or people otherwise tied to a company.

I have no financial ties to the company and, in fact, I own AMD shares. What he (the OP) is saying is what we would all like, but what we would all like does not equal what is smart or the best move by Nvidia. Their new gtx770 (highest end GK104) is going to equal or beat an hd7970GE, and the cheapest I see it going for on newegg is $450 before any MIR. Why in the heck would Nvidia want to undercut AMD when they're apparently not having a difficult time keeping sales up and getting large margins?

We don't know final prices or specs yet, and I've been vocal about the possibility of gtx780 being overpriced, but what the OP wants (for a $450 product to get refreshed at $300) is so far fetched from being a pipe dream it's not even worth mentioning.