How much must it suck to be John Carmack right now?

[Sho'Nuff]

Yesterday a jury handed down a $500M verdict in favor of Zenimax (and against Carmack's employer) in a lawsuit that hinged primarily on assertions that Carmack illegally copied Zenimax code when he left Zenimax to join Oculus VR.

Nice summary of the litigation is provided at the following link for those who are interested.

http://www.roadtovr.com/zenimax-vs-oculus-facebook-vr-lawsuit-court-case-summary-verdict/

 

[kage69]

Ouch.

Not so Luckey?

 

[Kaido]

How bad is his position? Not bad at all. This is a standard business practice: snap up some IP that has huge future value & setup a slush fund to deal with legalities down the road. They knew taking Carmack would get them slapped down the road, but who cares - $500 million is a drop in the bucket for Facebook, which has a market cap of over $350 billion. Their just-reported quarterly profit was over $3.5 billion, so even if they cover all expenses for those involved in the case, they've still made $3 billion overall as a company. Having just paid something like $2 billion for the Rift IP, another $500 mil is just part of the business equation.

And the future of VR is enormous, especially with Facebook integration...imagine the Sims VR with Facebook contacts. Farmville 3D. Instagram 360. The headsets will get Retina-quality eventually, slim down, go wireless, and be easier to use. I'm sure they'll even build the computers into them at some point, with a Kaby Lake card or Intel Compute Stick. Voice commands are getting pretty amazing with stuff like Alexa so you can go sans-keyboard. Why buy a TV or a computer monitor when you can watch a 100' virtual IMAX screen on your 8K Facebook VR goggles?

TL;DR: Media is making it sound like a big deal, guaranteed they planned ahead for this as part of their the cost of business, so it doesn't even matter to them.

 

[PottedMeat]

Sims VR with Facebook contacts. Farmville 3D. Instagram 360

<shudder>

 

[MongGrel]

Facebook still amazes me these days, I check in about once a month there just to check up on relatives.

I'm guilty of spending some time in the past playing a clickbait game with the wife, she has even dropped off on the games.

 

[Kaido]

<shudder>

Yup. But think about how much money this crap makes. Farmville makes $500+ million. And even simple stuff like mobile games make mad cash...the Kim Kardashian iOS app was pulling in something like $200,000 a day at its peak. Throw in virtual dating, multi-player adventure games, virtual vacations & VR tours, online shopping (especially for clothes), all kinds of stuff. I have a Vive VR headset & one of my favorite accessories is the VR bicycle from VirZoom, which lets you pedal in games...drive a tank or a pegasus or an F1 car & get some exercise while having a blast & optionally competing against other players online. You can rent 2D & 3D movies on the GearVR & watch them in a private movie theater (screen quality is still pixelated, but they'll get the resolution figured out over time). And Microsoft is already working on AR stuff like the HoloLens for integrating RL with graphics. Lots of opportunities in the future, once the hardware gets figured out!

 

[Pulsar]

Doubt Carmack really gives a damn. He's a rich man who does this shit for fun.

 

[Sho'Nuff]

Doubt Carmack really gives a damn. He's a rich man who does this shit for fun.

I disagree. For people like Carmack, pride and reputation is important. That is evident in his public response to the Zenimax decision - see http://imgur.com/a/2hHix\ and https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/5rnsn3/john_carmack_comments_on_the_end_of_oculus_vs/

Kaido - I agree that relative to Facebook's market cap, 500M is small potatoes. But - having some experience in business myself, I can say for certain that no businessman ignores that kind of loss. 500M is a huge loss due to litigation, any way you slice it. Samsung certainly didn't ignore a similar verdict and award against them in their litigation war with Apple, and it has a similar value as Facebook (which is ridiculous when you consider what Samsung does vs. Facebook). I predict appeals upon appeals, even if the end result is to pay lawyers 50M and reduce the award to 100M.

 

[nakedfrog]

And the future of VR is enormous

Maybe. I understand why they're willing to bet a huge stack of money on it, but I'm not convinced it's going to succeed.

Why buy a TV or a computer monitor when you can watch a 100' virtual IMAX screen on your 8K Facebook VR goggles?

Because that removes a large part of the social aspect of interacting with the other people in the room, whom you're watching a show/movie with? And you can't engage in other activities with a VR display strapped onto your head?

 

[Kaido]

I disagree. For people like Carmack, pride and reputation is important. That is evident in his public response to the Zenimax decision - see http://imgur.com/a/2hHix\ and https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/5rnsn3/john_carmack_comments_on_the_end_of_oculus_vs/

Kaido - I agree that relative to Facebook's market cap, 500M is small potatoes. But - having some experience in business myself, I can say for certain that no businessman ignores that kind of loss. 500M is a huge loss due to litigation, any way you slice it. Samsung certainly didn't ignore a similar verdict and award against them in their litigation war with Apple, and it has a similar value as Facebook (which is ridiculous when you consider what Samsung does vs. Facebook). I predict appeals upon appeals, even if the end result is to pay lawyers 50M and reduce the award to 100M.

Yeah, not a small hit by any means, but by buying such a small team, especially when Carmack was working under a different company, I'm sure they anticipated legal action in the form of a payout, especially since they shelled out like $2 billion dollars for Oculus. So really $2.5 billion when all is said & done

 

[Kaido]

Maybe. I understand why they're willing to bet a huge stack of money on it, but I'm not convinced it's going to succeed.

Because that removes a large part of the social aspect of interacting with the other people in the room, whom you're watching a show/movie with? And you can't engage in other activities with a VR display strapped onto your head?

Well, yes & no. Like, I'm a huge fan of projectors because you get a giant picture & can stuff everyone & their dog in the room (or outside) to watch with you. I do outdoor movie parties all summer long because the social aspect is so much fun (you haven't lived until you've played Mario Kart on a 12' inflatable screen, haha). But when I'm using my computer, I'm just on it by myself, and sometimes I just watch TV by myself. VR is definitely isolating...even when you're in the same room with people, it cuts you off visually & audibly (headset + headphones). But there are a lot of potential future uses once the technology gets out of the early-adopter phase & really solidifies (especially with AR!). For example, BigScreen just announced a software update that lets you run multiple monitors in VR. Imagine day traders, DCC people who do CAD or CGI, heavy office users, etc. being able to pop on a headset & pull up as many monitors as they want. The tech isn't there yet for crystal-clear text viewing (SDE etc.), but it will get there eventually...I'm sure Facebook will figure out a way to make money off it, one way or another!

 

[poofyhairguy]

Even though Oculus lost the first generation of VR to the Vive there is no signs that Facebook is backing away from that investment. They recently hired Hugo Barra for be a VP of VR and to help develop a wireless headset. Hugo was a big part of what made Android successful back in the day, and what I could see Facebook doing is creating THE os that everyone wants to use with VR.

 

[Aikouka]

Keep in mind that Oculus is only liable for $300 million. Iribe, the former CEO, and Palmer are liable for $150 million and $50 million respectively.

 

[Kaido]

Keep in mind that Oculus is only liable for $300 million. Iribe, the former CEO, and Palmer are liable for $150 million and $50 million respectively.

My google-fu says Luckey's net worth is $700 million & Iribe's is $2 billion. I think they'll be okay And I'm sure Facebook will just hook them up with some stock options (or golden parachutes) as a back-end deal.

Again...Oculus cost $2.5 billion...$2 billion up front, $500 mil later

 

[Kaido]

Even though Oculus lost the first generation of VR to the Vive there is no signs that Facebook is backing away from that investment. They recently hired Hugo Barra for be a VP of VR and to help develop a wireless headset. Hugo was a big part of what made Android successful back in the day, and what I could see Facebook doing is creating THE os that everyone wants to use with VR.

Samsung is supposed to be coming out with a phone-free GearVR at some point; they run the Oculus store software on their headset. PC-wise, the Intel Compute Stick is now the Intel Compute Card, which is a dockable mini-computer:

https://liliputing.com/2017/01/intel-compute-card-tiny-pc-modular-world.html

Would be pretty easy to build that into a headset...and phones like the Sony Xperia Z5 Premium already have 4K screens, so they could push the mobile HMD's pretty far pretty quick if they wanted to!

 

[poofyhairguy]

My google-fu says Luckey's net worth is $700 million & Iribe's is $2 billion. I think they'll be okay And I'm sure Facebook will just hook them up with some stock options (or golden parachutes) as a back-end deal.

I bet.

I mean, this is the King of Facebook's pet project. I am sure it will get all the resources it needs.

 

[manly]

Keep in mind that Oculus is only liable for $300 million. Iribe, the former CEO, and Palmer are liable for $150 million and $50 million respectively.

Regarding the OP's question, I thought the judgment more or less exonerated Carmack as having stolen from his old employer?

 

[zinfamous]

Voice commands are getting pretty amazing with stuff like Alexa so you can go sans-keyboard. Why buy a TV or a computer monitor when you can watch a 100' virtual IMAX screen on your 8K Facebook VR goggles?
.

Alexa: massage my balls, please.

 

[Pulsar]

I disagree. For people like Carmack, pride and reputation is important. That is evident in his public response to the Zenimax decision - see http://imgur.com/a/2hHix\ and https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/5rnsn3/john_carmack_comments_on_the_end_of_oculus_vs/

Kaido - I agree that relative to Facebook's market cap, 500M is small potatoes. But - having some experience in business myself, I can say for certain that no businessman ignores that kind of loss. 500M is a huge loss due to litigation, any way you slice it. Samsung certainly didn't ignore a similar verdict and award against them in their litigation war with Apple, and it has a similar value as Facebook (which is ridiculous when you consider what Samsung does vs. Facebook). I predict appeals upon appeals, even if the end result is to pay lawyers 50M and reduce the award to 100M.

Huh. I didn't realize that they were directly calling Carmack a liar.

I have to admit though that it seems like he should have easily been able to prove he didn't copy the code. Old code repositories showing revision levels and how they created the code would seem to a good starting point. That said, I know exactly how fucked up the legal system is - and if you have enough money you'll win no matter what.

 

[Sho'Nuff]

Not really. Zenimax sued a plurality of defendants (including Oculus as a corporation and Carmack individually) for trade secret misappropriation and copyright infringement. The jury largely exonerated Carmack from personal liability, but found that Oculus was liable for copyright infringement. The jury's decision re: Oculus' liability was based in no small part on testimony by and against Carmack - whom they found to have contributed to copyright infringement of Zenimax's code (by Oculus).

Full jury instructions and verdict document available here: https://www.scribd.com/document/338147994/Ruling-in-Zenimax-vs-Facebook-s-Oculus

See question 9 - jury finds that Carmack contributed to copyright infringement.

 

[superstition]

This reminds me of the situation with Fairchild and the F8.

In February of 1976 Fairchild signed a agreement with Olympia Werke A.G., a German company, allowing production and sharing of information on the F8 processor. It also allowed Fairchild (and any of its second sources, including Mostek) to use any of Olympia’s processor technology and products. So why did Fairchild reach such an agreement with Olympia, a relatively small company? Because General Instruments was suing Fairchild at the time.

A man named Dr David Chung (head of GI’s microprocessor division) was dispatched to Olympia to pick up some proprietary information on a top secret 8-bit processor Olympia was developing called the C3PF. GI had an agreement to license this processor technology from Olympia and it was Chung’s job to get the information to make that possible.

Very shortly after Chung’s return from Germany he quit GI. Who hired him? Fairchild of course.

GI accused Fairchild (and Chung) of using the proprietary information on the C3PF to develop the F8 processor. By reaching an agreement with Olympia, Fairchild now was legally covered if in fact they HAD used information on the C3PF in the design of the F8.

Unfortunately very little information exists on the C3PF but it is widely believed that it was the basis of the Fairchild F8. The court case went on into the 1980’s by which time it didn’t really matter. I was unable to determine who ‘won’ but by production dates of the F8, it didn’t matter one way or another.

Great artists steal.

That's the fun of being a corporate "person". You get all the advantages and none of the drawbacks for blatant thievery.