How Much More Affordable Would College Be

[GasX]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Ivy Leagues don't give out athletic scholarships. Doesn't seem to make them more affordable, and their sport teams suck for the most part.

There is a certain amount of nodding and winking going on there... Penn made the Final Four in 1978. As of 1990 when I was a student, the star of that team still hung out in West Philly and still drove the same beemer he was given for his efforts. If he had 2 brain cells, they were not on speaking terms...

However, the VAST majority of student athletes at Ivy League schools are highly motivated people who balance the mental and physical quite well.

 

[Paddington]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Ivy Leagues don't give out athletic scholarships. Doesn't seem to make them more affordable, and their sport teams suck for the most part.

Actually I went to Cornell, and this isn't exactly true. I knew people who were on atheletic teams there, and the general consensus was that atheletes got hooked up with surprisingly generous financial aid packages. For example, if you were a typical student whose parents made about $80,000 or so, Cornell would give you no financial aid. But if you were a jock, even if your parents were making millions, they would still give you close to a full ride. There's rules and then there's bending the rules. They don't give you a scholarship, but the atheletic department tells the financial aid department to give you generous break on account of "need", whether or not you actually have need.

At Cornell, other than hockey, no sports team there generated any interest or revenues whatsoever. The football games were mostly unattended. Most of the jocks at Cornell were dumb as ****** and probably didn't belong there. The university made up majors like PAM and AEM to accomodate them. Every once in a while there's a stir at Cornell to get rid of the football team, because there's so little interest in it (other than the alumni who come up for the Homecoming game), but at the same time a large number of spots in the class go to football players, and the overall academic standards of the university come down.

I'm now a grad. student at Ohio State. I can possibly concede that the football and basketball teams here might make some money, although they could very well be losing money once you see the size of their facilities, the costs, and all that's lavished on them. I doubt any of the other teams here like any of the women's sports, or rowing, tennis, baseball, etc. make any money at all, and these teams all have atheletes getting scholarships at the expense of other students and taking up seats in the classroom at the expense of other students.

 

[torpid]

Whether or not the athletics as a whole generate revenue, there are a lot of athletic sports that have programs that lose immense amounts of money. I think any sport that isn't generating revenue for the school should have to drop their athletic scholarships at some point. I also think the name "scholarship" is kind of dumb. If you get a "scholarship" you should have to actually be a scholar. Free tutoring and preferential treatment are things a true scholar shouldn't get.

 

[Tobolo]

Originally posted by: Paddington

Originally posted by: BigJ
Your tuition would go up.

/thread

What with all the big money makers like gymnastics, women's hockey, lacrosse, golf, and cross country eliminated? Sure. :roll:

I went to a smaller university and my roomate was on a football scholarship. He got the maximum allowance of $1000 a semester. Our team sucks and they still netted a couple of thousand a game. And we played at the highschool stadium.

As for the free events, they usually get less money (some compete and can win money for the school) but they usualy fund those with fundraisers and concesstion sales.

 

[Baked]

Pac10 in the house! Me thinks OP can't lift a 2 lb bar bell and is whiter than whole milk.

 

[Paddington]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: nycxandy

Originally posted by: miri

Originally posted by: bignateyk
obviously a good chunk of the money will be filtered right back into athletics, but if you think that the amount of money the programs bring to the schools doesnt offset the cost of a few scholarships, think again.

that might work for big football and basketball schools but not others

I graduated from VCU, a school with around 30k students, and their athletic department does not bring much revenue at all, and I doubt it comes anywhere near paying for the athletic scholarships, coaching salaries and team expenses. Have you ever heard of a VCU team?

VCU 2004-2005
Revenues: $8,869,907
Expenses: $8,545,534

Nicely done

But what's the breakdown with those expenses? That could simply be ticket sales minus the cost to the run the stadiums. Does that include money that they spend on the athelete's scholarship and financial aid? Does it include money they spend on additional tutoring for atheletes?

 

[ZOOYUKA]

Originally posted by: Gibsons
The athletic dept at many schools turns a profit.

QFT. At LSU sports are its biggest revenue. The money generated from football supports other athletics and they regularly share the profits with the rest of the university for various needs. The scholarship that some of these athletes is very small in comparison to the money that help bring into the university.

 

[bignateyk]

Originally posted by: Paddington

Originally posted by: senseamp
Ivy Leagues don't give out athletic scholarships. Doesn't seem to make them more affordable, and their sport teams suck for the most part.

Actually I went to Cornell, and this isn't exactly true. I knew people who were on atheletic teams there, and the general consensus was that atheletes got hooked up with surprisingly generous financial aid packages. For example, if you were a typical student whose parents made about $80,000 or so, Cornell would give you no financial aid. But if you were a jock, even if your parents were making millions, they would still give you close to a full ride. There's rules and then there's bending the rules. They don't give you a scholarship, but the atheletic department tells the financial aid department to give you generous break on account of "need", whether or not you actually have need.

At Cornell, other than hockey, no sports team there generated any interest or revenues whatsoever. The football games were mostly unattended. Most of the jocks at Cornell were dumb as ****** and probably didn't belong there. The university made up majors like PAM and AEM to accomodate them. Every once in a while there's a stir at Cornell to get rid of the football team, because there's so little interest in it (other than the alumni who come up for the Homecoming game), but at the same time a large number of spots in the class go to football players, and the overall academic standards of the university come down.

I'm now a grad. student at Ohio State. I can possibly concede that the football and basketball teams here might make some money, although they could very well be losing money once you see the size of their facilities, the costs, and all that's lavished on them. I doubt any of the other teams here like any of the women's sports, or rowing, tennis, baseball, etc. make any money at all, and these teams all have atheletes getting scholarships at the expense of other students and taking up seats in the classroom at the expense of other students.

you're paying for grad school?


I dont know why you have such a dislike for athletics and athletes. Many are alot smarter than you give them credit for... There are several starting football players at Penn State who got degrees in science and engineering related fields in less than 4 years, and started on second degrees while still eligible for football.

But what's the breakdown with those expenses? That could simply be ticket sales minus the cost to the run the stadiums. Does that include money that they spend on the athelete's scholarship and financial aid? Does it include money they spend on additional tutoring for atheletes?

you still dont seem to get that the cost of scholarships, financial aid, tutoring, and anything else like that FAR pales in comparison to equipment, facility, and operations costs for athletics. Im willing to bet the jumbotron inside Beaver Stadium cost more than 20 years worth of scholarships.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Paddington

Originally posted by: senseamp
Ivy Leagues don't give out athletic scholarships. Doesn't seem to make them more affordable, and their sport teams suck for the most part.

Actually I went to Cornell, and this isn't exactly true. I knew people who were on atheletic teams there, and the general consensus was that atheletes got hooked up with surprisingly generous financial aid packages. For example, if you were a typical student whose parents made about $80,000 or so, Cornell would give you no financial aid. But if you were a jock, even if your parents were making millions, they would still give you close to a full ride. There's rules and then there's bending the rules. They don't give you a scholarship, but the atheletic department tells the financial aid department to give you generous break on account of "need", whether or not you actually have need.

At Cornell, other than hockey, no sports team there generated any interest or revenues whatsoever. The football games were mostly unattended. Most of the jocks at Cornell were dumb as ****** and probably didn't belong there. The university made up majors like PAM and AEM to accomodate them. Every once in a while there's a stir at Cornell to get rid of the football team, because there's so little interest in it (other than the alumni who come up for the Homecoming game), but at the same time a large number of spots in the class go to football players, and the overall academic standards of the university come down.

I'm now a grad. student at Ohio State. I can possibly concede that the football and basketball teams here might make some money, although they could very well be losing money once you see the size of their facilities, the costs, and all that's lavished on them. I doubt any of the other teams here like any of the women's sports, or rowing, tennis, baseball, etc. make any money at all, and these teams all have atheletes getting scholarships at the expense of other students and taking up seats in the classroom at the expense of other students.

So what you're saying is that you've got an Ivy League education and are currently pursuing a MBA and you can't do the most basic of research and go off of half-assed assumptions instead?

 

[DougK62]

Uhh...universities are businesses first. A business lives to make money.

 

[Ausm]

Originally posted by: DougK62
Uhh...universities are businesses first. A business lives to make money.

:thumbsup:

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: DougK62
Uhh...universities are businesses first. A business lives to make money.

The problem comes in when they pretend not to be a business because it's better for business and when an entire athletic organization bans behaving like a business. Those things are in too much conflict with the reality of the situation. I never really understood people who think that college sports are more pure because they aren't paid athletes. You've got colleges who give full rides to players from other countries who don't speak much english, are dumb as a rock, and get other people to do all their college work for them.

 

[waggy]

hahah damn not how the OP thought the thread would go eh?

 

[ZOOYUKA]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: nkgreen
University of Alabama: Total athletic revenues were $62.3 million in 2005, while expenses were $49.8 million

And they just unveiled a major stadium expansion and upgrade this past weekend that was payed entirely by private donations and bonds that the athletic dept is paying off.

The power of SEC football!

 

[BigJ]

Quick numbers break-down.

Here at Maryland, there are 27 sports teams. Say 10 people per team get full-rides (probably less). Those kids are more than likely in-state, with a few out of state. I think in-state tuition is in the realm of 12k a year. For numbers sake, we'll go with OOS tuition, which is like $24k a year.

So 24k x 10 x 27 = $6.5 million. There are approx 28k students last time I checked at UMD. Taking away those scholarships would result in there being $237 more per person per year. If we use in-state tuition, that number drops to $115. The money spent on scholarships and financial aid is almost nothing when it comes down to a per person basis.

For arguments sake, let's increase that to 30 full-ride scholarships per team:
Goes up to $695 for OOS, $350 in-state.

Let's increase that to 60 full-ride scholarships for teams:
$1,400 for OOS, $700 in-state.

According to this link:
http://www.hagens-berman.com/ncaa_lawsuit.html

While scholarships for all roster players would cost an estimated $600,000 per school, the average Division I-A football team earns nearly $5 million in excess revenue.

On top of that, I think we won something like 3 national championships across the board, plus a few individual championships. The football stadium normally packs in at least 40k, with tons of money being made from merchandise and concessions.

To add to that, people are proud to wear their Maryland shirts, shorts, polos, etc because of how well we're recognized nationally in all athletics. For fvck's sake, there was a riot on Route 1 when the Women's Basketball Team won the national championship. Lacrosse here is also a powerhouse.

 

[Special K]

Everyone's already stated the obvious - the programs make money, and the scholarships are necessary to attract talent, which brings in more money.

I will just say that I find it sad that our society is so fanatical about sports, and is willing to pay so much for it that the teams can afford to pay their players millions to play a game that really has no value to society outside of entertainment.

 

[waggy]

the only time i have trouble is when the college forces (or attempts to) the city/state to pay for it. or gets something the college really does not need. When i lived in DeKalb the local college NIU wanted a convection center. Well they asked the city to pay for half. the city did a study and found it would not be a good idea and told NIU no. So NIU tried to get the students to pay for it. the student body voted it down. So while on summer break when the students were out of school they tried again. this time since the students were not there to vote it down it passed.

so now the kids are paying something like $20 a semester for it.

They maybe have one or two concerts or programs a year. bu the NIU basketball teams play in it! pfft

 

[Christobevii3]

Get rid of the all the poor minorities and tuition would go down...

Blame pale grants

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Christobevii3
Get rid of the all the poor minorities and tuition would go down...

Blame pale grants

LMAO - so says the black guy avatar.

It is Pell Grants.

 

[Homerboy]

needless to say, I think its safe to assume the OP wouldn't be getting an academic scholarship anyways.

 

[Christobevii3]

All the academic scholarship is need based at my school too. So really if you aren't a minority and poor you are screwed. Only white person I know that has a pell grant is one of my friends and it was because he came from a single mom family with 3 kids in school, though my parents make about the same money as her and had two kids in school we got nothing. But my parents were "smart" and saved, though it forces things to equal out in the end.

 

[nycxandy]

Originally posted by: miri

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: nycxandy

Originally posted by: miri

Originally posted by: bignateyk
obviously a good chunk of the money will be filtered right back into athletics, but if you think that the amount of money the programs bring to the schools doesnt offset the cost of a few scholarships, think again.

that might work for big football and basketball schools but not others

I graduated from VCU, a school with around 30k students, and their athletic department does not bring much revenue at all, and I doubt it comes anywhere near paying for the athletic scholarships, coaching salaries and team expenses. Have you ever heard of a VCU team?

VCU 2004-2005
Revenues: $8,869,907
Expenses: $8,545,534

Nicely done

can you link where you got your information?

that is surprising, I remember they kept sending me emails with incentives for students to attend games. I remember one game they were giving away free tuition for a student that attended the game.

Equity in Athletics

 

[ShockwaveVT]

at least for Virginia public universities (Virginia Tech, UVA, VCU, JMU, Longwood, etc etc) the Athletic Departments have to pay their own way - i.e. zero $ from Tution, zero $ from taxpayers, all expenses including Scholarships are paid from donations, ticket sales and merchandising.

 

[NeoV]

a few more thoughts...


Paddington, you are dead wrong about the athletes at Ivy League schools - they are held to the same academic and admissions standards that other students are - and they receive NO additional financial aid. You may have a case of the "so and so knows so and so who lives across the hall from so and so, and he said that he is getting X amount of $$" - it's just not true. Think of the negative publicity that would happen if Harvard's hockey players were getting extra money and weren't being held to the same standards academically?

As for your comment about Ohio St - the football and basketball programs "might" make some money? Might? Do you go home on the weekends during the football season? Wait until you see the crowds at the basketball games this year with the arrival of Greg Oden - the best HS center since Shaq - and his fellow freshman class. Have you seen the Woodie Hayes facility? Did you see the crowd at the spring football game - nothing more than a spruced up intra-squad scrimmage?

 

[Christobevii3]

Uhmm they are usually able to get a few exceptions each year to remain competitive. I know rice allows that and players sat scores are like 300 lower on average than regular students, but the regulars were like 1450.