How Much Money Does the Middle Class Need to Get By?

[MongGrel]

Family of 4? 65k minimum to rent a shitty apartment. Want a house? 80k and up. Want to not be stressed about money all the time? 120k and up. Want to retire and not be broke? 150k and up. Want an M3? 200k and up. Want two girls at once? 500k and up. Want ATOT status? 1.5 million and up.

I'm still in the keeping my house state these days, at least I have some savings.

Used to do better a lot and a bit PO'd about it these days I guess.

Had a couple rough years there myself.

Might have to start looking around, is hard to move up the ladder again when ya get older.

Once upon a time highly trained machinists weren't dumped out of large companies over outsourcing.

We've even had a couple CNC programmers quit were I'm at lately, I'm the only guy even still knows MasterCam in the shop atm.

They are starting to realize that a bit lately, and I do not even get paid as a programmer.

I'm mostly proficient at manual machines, some of which the company doesn't even own or have never heard of, but I still do CNC programming and run a couple myself.

I still do manual work on the side no one has a clue about.

Even the guys they have recently "put in charge" that have figured out I can do things they cannot have started to acknowledge that.

But that is why a few have left, I'm just sticking it out a bit at the moment to see how things go.

 

[TheSlamma]

When we stop rewarding our kids with iphones/ipads and 50 dollar tooth fairy visits and new uggs every year. We will be in a better place.

But dude, you don't want to be a parent to your kids anymore,.. you want to be their FRIENDS!

 

[eldorado99]

Every family should be taking a vacation or 3 a year. That seems a bit absurd to forgo considering the benefits to mental health and the memories created. I just think that if you don't have a lot of money you go camping so that you don't live outside of your means. Even if you only spent 1% of your income on vacations you would still have enough to go camping.

Where I see my friends and family screwing up is drinking starbucks everyday before work, having 3 TV's in the house, eating out almost everyday. Then they wonder why they can't save money like I can. Some things though are a bit out of our control. TV's used to be build well and lasted a long time. Now they seem to either die or half the screen dies after 4-6 years. When you're constantly replacing electronics it really adds to your monthly bills. We also get screwed with our high costs for things like cable and internet. Now that I live overseas it's amazing to see how much cheaper things like a cell phone cost. I pay $13 for internet and add on a few bucks for phone calls since almost everything is done through VOIP. When I was home I think the cheapest plan I ever had was $30 a month. So that right there is your camping vacation partially paid for at least.

You can still buy used CRT televisions that last a billion years, but do you use one as your main television?

 

[Kaido]

Yeah, these numbers make no sense for high cost areas.

Here in Connecticut, a three bedroom house in a neighborhood with decent schools and low crime is still around $300,000. Good luck affording that on a $65,000 salary, let alone the two cars in the driveway and health insurance for everyone.

Yeah man, I hear that! I was amazed when I visited my in-laws out west...$250k gets you an acre of land, a brand-new house with granite countertops, 4 huge bedrooms, etc. That's like $500k equivalent here in CT, not to mention property taxes.

...but it is nice not having to deal with earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, alligators, etc. on a regular basis.

 

[Engineer]

Based on the last few decades, those at the top think minimum wage is enough and even then, they would like that eliminated too.

You greedy bastards!!!

 

[Kaido]

Based on the last few decades, those at the top think minimum wage is enough and even then, they would like that eliminated too.

You greedy bastards!!!

I have seen this at literally every job I've ever worked at...the people sitting in comfortable financial positions don't understand why the peons aren't happy. For starters, the ground-level guys are the ones making the business actually work, so they should be paid well! Plus you have people who just can't do better in life due to a lower IQ, poor social skills, physical disabilities, etc., and I don't think they should be punished financially because they don't have the ability to do better for themselves. Take care of the people who are making you money...anything else is just pathetic. Just look at Google...in general, they treat their workers pretty well, and as a result, people love working for them & they are a top company making great products & services. It's not hard, and you get a great return on the investment.

I've seen & heard some pretty disgusting things from people in ivory tower positions...managers, engineers, etc. who have a solid financial foundation and look down on other people (not to stereotype here because a lot of good people are in those positions, but financially speaking, they tend to be better-paid & it's easy to fall into the trap of acting above other people). I had a meeting with an upper manager once who was making a quarter million a year; he was looking to motivate a shop team and I suggested just having a pizza party once every couple of weeks (because everybody loves food) and he basically angrily responded with "they should be happy with what they get for a paycheck" ( a few dollars above minimum wage) and was offended by the idea that they should get anything more than that. Literally offended. Over what would be a paltry amount for the company to spend on some food once in awhile for people putting in a lot of hard work. Gimme a break.

I mean, even from a basic psychology perspective, it's just business...pay people better than average, treat them well, give them perks, make them feel valued, and you'll have a great team that works hard for you & makes your company and you richer. But very few companies do that, and as a result, a lot of people hate their jobs.

 

[Kaido]

How Much Money Does the Middle Class Need to Get By?

Depends on your situation. Got any student loans? Got any expensive hobbies? Got a kid or spouse with special health needs? If you want to be zen of hippie, then sure, you can get by on not much at all. I have a coworker who lives on $12k a year. His house & both cars are paid off. They make all their meals at home. They watch every penny...not because they have to (he makes good money), but because he wants to.

But that's not what most people consider living...you want services like TV & cell phones, nice toys at Christmas, go out to eat once in awhile, etc. You kind of have to decide how you want to live your life & set things up from there.

 

[JMapleton]

Stupid question. It depends on where you live.

$25k is middle class is Buford, GA.

$250k is middle class in Manhattan.

 

[OverVolt]

The middle class is already dead.

 

[allenkerky]

First off, this is an extremely thorough article.

Secondly, for people who are chastising peoples spending habits on ipads etc... our economies are centered around consumerism, technically they are doing what they are supposed to be doing right? god forbid all these corporations dip under their bottom line.

 

[MongGrel]

The middle class is already dead.

I'd tend to agree, actually.

 

[Jumpem]

Family of 4? 65k minimum to rent a shitty apartment. Want a house? 80k and up. Want to not be stressed about money all the time? 120k and up. Want to retire and not be broke? 150k and up. Want an M3? 200k and up. Want two girls at once? 500k and up. Want ATOT status? 1.5 million and up.

This is about right.

 

[Jumpem]

From the perspective of the dad in a family of 4, this looks about right.

The suggestion in the article was that a family of 4 could live comfortably on an after-savings net of 40K/year, while at the same time pointing out that mortgage costs are easily 24-30K/year. The costs of food, transportation, and utilities alone on a family of 4 is above 16K/year to be reasonably comfortable in terms of healthy food, 2 cars, and fairly standard usage of water, power, and internet, cell phones for parents, and possibly cable. Part of living comfortably would also include the ability to take a vacation, go out for dinner once a month or so, and have a few extras.

Most families could save a lot of money by dropping the second car. If husband and wife work roughly the same schedules, one person gets dropped off at work, and the other continues on.

 

[rednas]

Average family income is lower than I was expecting.

 

[pontifex]

how the hell are they getting $560,000 after 40 years of saving $2000 a year???

You're going to make over $400,000 in interest? Hell, even if both husband and wife save $2000 a year each, thats still $400,000 difference. where is that coming from?

 

[jlee]

Most families could save a lot of money by dropping the second car. If husband and wife work roughly the same schedules, one person gets dropped off at work, and the other continues on.

If there's a payment, sure...but my three vehicles cost me $85/mo for insurance and a combined total of ~$90/yr in registration fees. You don't need a 1-3yo econobox for $200-400/mo when a 90's Toyota does just as well.

That's also assuming they not only work roughly the same schedules, but they also work in roughly the same area.

 

[jlee]

how the hell are they getting $560,000 after 40 years of saving $2000 a year???

You're going to make over $400,000 in interest? Hell, even if both husband and wife save $2000 a year each, thats still $400,000 difference. where is that coming from?

Of course, basing the next 40 years of inflation on the last 40 years, $560k will have the buying power of $116k. That's...not much to retire with.

 

[mikeford]

Based on the last few decades, those at the top think minimum wage is enough and even then, they would like that eliminated too.

You greedy bastards!!!

Just ignorance of how business works.

Minimum wage sets the lower limit on who can get a job. Skills or work habits below that level and you will only get hired when demand exceeds the pool of higher skilled or better work habit people.

I want to see minimum wage eliminated so those low skill, poor work habit people can do some work, and contribute to society instead of other working people paying for 100% of their needs and getting nothing back.

Business operates to make a profit. Goods are purchased, enhanced in value by labor, and if the business is successful sold for more than the total costs generating a profit. Assuming the cost of goods and labor are the same for all competitors, the higher those costs are the more money the business makes, because all the costs plus a percentage for profit is passed on to the consumer.

People making 10x the minimum wage did not find a special lotto ticket, they have a skill that makes more for the company they work for than their salary. Just because you don't understand how some high wage employees earn their salary doesn't mean that they don't earn it.

 

[Engineer]

Just ignorance of how business works.

Minimum wage sets the lower limit on who can get a job. Skills or work habits below that level and you will only get hired when demand exceeds the pool of higher skilled or better work habit people.

I want to see minimum wage eliminated so those low skill, poor work habit people can do some work, and contribute to society instead of other working people paying for 100% of their needs and getting nothing back.

Business operates to make a profit. Goods are purchased, enhanced in value by labor, and if the business is successful sold for more than the total costs generating a profit. Assuming the cost of goods and labor are the same for all competitors, the higher those costs are the more money the business makes, because all the costs plus a percentage for profit is passed on to the consumer.

People making 10x the minimum wage did not find a special lotto ticket, they have a skill that makes more for the company they work for than their salary. Just because you don't understand how some high wage employees earn their salary doesn't mean that they don't earn it.

Thanks for proving my point. This thread and my comments were about MIDDLE CLASS, not lower class jobs and their pay but you just proved exactly what I said. As far as you are concerned and as long as you get yours, screw them. Lower their wages and MY stuff will be cheaper and I'll get more out of life at their expense.

Just another elitist prick posting behind a monitor and keyboard.

/Golf clap

 

[OverVolt]

Of course, basing the next 40 years of inflation on the last 40 years, $560k will have the buying power of $116k. That's...not much to retire with.

Inflation won't be that high, but you aren't getting an 8% return either.

 

[jlee]

Inflation won't be that high, but you aren't getting an 8% return either.

Hopefully not, but there's not really any way to tell for sure.

 

[alkemyst]

If there's a payment, sure...but my three vehicles cost me $85/mo for insurance and a combined total of ~$90/yr in registration fees. You don't need a 1-3yo econobox for $200-400/mo when a 90's Toyota does just as well.

That's also assuming they not only work roughly the same schedules, but they also work in roughly the same area.

What are you carrying a 10/20k plan?!?

Insurance here is like $300 a month 100/300/100 full coverage on a 06 Accord and 12 Mazda 3

 

[Jumpem]

If there's a payment, sure...but my three vehicles cost me $85/mo for insurance and a combined total of ~$90/yr in registration fees. You don't need a 1-3yo econobox for $200-400/mo when a 90's Toyota does just as well.

That's also assuming they not only work roughly the same schedules, but they also work in roughly the same area.

A car from the nineties would be rusted through here. The obscene amount of road salt used is one of the reasons I only keep a vehicle for three winters.

I plan to always have a payment. I lease whichever of the Forester or Outback is better at the time. I also like the safety features of newer vehicles, especially having two kids. I never have to worry about repairs. The newer models keep getting better fuel economy as well.

We drive ten miles to my office, and then my wife drives another seven miles to hers. And then the opposite in the evenings.

 

[jlee]

What are you carrying a 10/20k plan?!?

Insurance here is like $300 a month 100/300/100 full coverage on a 06 Accord and 12 Mazda 3

Nope.

Going to 100/300/100 (for everything - Bodily Injury & Property Damage Liability, Underinsured, and Uninsured) only adds $45 to my six month policy, though - so for $7.50/mo I should probably do it.

The MR2 is with a different carrier under a collector's policy. $250 deductibles, $12k stated value, comp/collision/glass at $216/year.

 

[alkemyst]

Nope.

Going to 100/300/100 (for everything - Bodily Injury & Property Damage Liability, Underinsured, and Uninsured) only adds $45 to my six month policy, though - so for $7.50/mo I should probably do it.

The MR2 is with a different carrier under a collector's policy. $250 deductibles, $12k stated value, comp/collision/glass at $216/year.

That same plan (Progressive with Snapshot) would be $189.30 a month here in Florida ($928 for six months with paid in full discount!)

50/100/50: $503
Uninsured 50/10: $178
PIP: $105
Medical Payments 5,000: $33

Tacoma:
Comp, $500 ded: $29

LX450:
Comp, $1000 ded: $26
Collision, $1000 ded: $58