How much mem (4 or 8) - building new pc

[jhammer569]

Narrowed in on this so far:
CPU: Intel Q9550
GPU: 2 ATI cards (either 3450, 3650, 3850. haven't decided yet)
MB: tbd

Usage across 3 monitors:
->Home video editing (transfer video via firewire and/or s-video and/or composite video) & some Photoshop
->I trade for a living, so need fast screen updates across my 3 flat-panel monitors (20" dells)
->Basic web surfing, watching some DVD's when bored, email, etc.
->Very few games, if at all

I am currently on XP Pro 32-bit. On the new comp I'll probably go with XP Pro 64-bit since I've heard bad stories about Vista and trading platforms (my livelihood).

So given the above, is 8gig overkill, should I just go with 4gig? I can go with 4gig and always add later, right?

Thanks!

 

[Rebel44]

If you plan to use this PC for 2+ years I would recomend 8GB RAM and Vista 64bit (most horror stories about Vista 64bit are FUD and Vista 64bit has better support then XP 64bit).

 

[DSF]

What does Vista have to do with trading specifically?

Most of the bad press about Vista is old news at this point, but people who haven't used it are repeating the same problems they've heard people talking about for over a year.

It's possible that Vista is the wrong choice for you, but I don't understand what the connection would be to trading, and XP 64 does have its own set of quirks.

For what you're doing (that is, you don't seem to be doing much gaming or 3D work) the 3850 would be overkill. If you want to have the ability to play the occasional 3D game maybe go with one 3850 or similar, but not two. The second card should be a less powerful one if you get a 3850.

 

[jhammer569]

I'll move my Vista question to the OS forum, it could be old news like you say, I just remember reading about it in an "Active Trader" issue maybe 3-4 months ago.

But it sounds like 8gig is the way to go?

And graphics card: 3450 for passive (quiet) cooling + 3850 is good enough? Can they crossfire even though diff. cards?

 

[LOUISSSSS]

i'd go to 2 x 2gb right now and see if you actually EVER use up 100% of your ram. you can see this in vista sidebar or google sidebar.

if u even get near 100% (90%+) then u should move up to 8gb

 

[DSF]

I think I'd take the information with a grain of salt. Magazine writers often know just enough about a subject to sound smart while getting lots of things wrong.

There's no reason to Crossfire them, although hybrid Crossfire is available. I'm not sure of the specifics on that. If you're thinking about Crossfiring the cards (Crossfire has to be disabled to run two monitors by the way) just buy a more powerful primary card instead, like a 4850.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I'll check the "OS" forum a little later, but expect you may check back here for additional responses.

There's such a thing as "more memory than needed."

It MAY BE (I need to check again) that XP-64 would recognize above 3GB of RAM, and in fact, I understand that 32-bit XP will still "use" it even if it's not shown in sys-info utilities.

I just got my VISTA -64 up, running, back-on-top . . . . For installation frust-er-ations I've had with earlier OS'es since Windows 3.0 and before, it's probably about average on the heartache and sweat scale. But that's because of two things that were inter-related:

1) I'd socketed 4GB of RAM
2) I'd done the installation from a pre-Service-Pack-1 OEM install-DVD.

If you're going to use 4GB, get a 2x2GB kit, and stress-test it extensively with MEMTEST86+ before proceeding with your VISTA installation.

As to software compatibility, you should be able to create a dual-boot system with both XP and VISTA-64 (anyone -- correct me if I'm wrong.) that way, you can continue to use whatever software and data you worry about, but re-install it under VISTA-64 and see how it works.

My best understanding of it -- keep in mind I haven't had enough time to test older programs extensively under this new "VISTA-64 toy" -- it runs a lot of 32-bit programs just fine. I recall reading in various places that the worst troubles arose from rather ancient 16-bit software running under WOW. But -- this is why I built this machine. And as Hyman Roth says in "GodFather II" -- "THIS . . . . is da BIDNIS . . . we're IN!" And we accept the consequences.

 

[jhammer569]

Tnx for the info. Wow, didn't realize crossfire is a moot point with multiple monitors, interesting, I'll double-check that. Not that it really changes my decision though, I'm not a gamer so I'm sure I won't notice the performance diff. anyway. I've decided on 2 of these after comparing/contrasting all the brands of the 3650's:
SAPPHIRE 100237L Radeon HD 3650 512MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Retail

As for Xp/Vista, tnx for the response. Makes sense about starting w/ 4gb first and moving up from there if needed. My current computer is 1gig and I've survived just fine on that so I'm sure 4gig will probably be plenty. I'll stress-test them like you suggest and I'll move over to the OS forum probably next monday since i'm away for the weekend.

Tnx all!

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Forgot to mention in more detail:

There was a MS Knowledge-base article per earlier VISTA-64 (pre-SP1) releases and the "4GB" problem. Once through the first install sequence and installation-initiated reboot, the system would go BSOD at the Windows logo screen. Consistently, every time.

The solution, with non-Service-Pack-1 installation discs, was to either remove 2GB (of the 4GB kit), or replace with a 2GB kit, then install VISTA-64, then update to SP1 and put the full 4GB back in the memory slots.

One could say that these are the headaches that separate the men from the boys, but you'd only need enough "experience" to stay calm, do some web-searches, and dredge up forum posts and the Knowledge-Base article.

EDIT: And so far, I'm tentatively concluding that 4GB is ample, even for gaming. That may change in the future sometime, and I recall a Maximum PC Magazine "Dream Machine of the Year" they put together with a dual Opteron (AMD) motherboard and 8GB of RAM [for OOOO-nly $12,000 dollars].

Only speculating here, but there is another way, given the Windows swap-file with limited memory [and 4GB is not really "limited"] that you can increase performance even further without doubling the memory to 8GB.

With the right USB-2.0 cable that you are willing to "cut up," you modify a large USB flash drive so that it's plugged directly into the motherboard. [There's an article on this mod in Maximum PC Mag several months ago.] OR -- you simply keep a USB flash drive plugged in to the computer instead of making it an internal motherboard appendage.

There's then a feature of VISTA that will use the flash drive for the swap-file.

 

[DSF]

Well you have to decide whether this machine is also going to do some reasonable gaming or not. If it is, a 3650 probably isn't going to cut the mustard. For anything else you're doing a 3650 or even 3450 is fine.

 

[jhammer569]

I have not played any games on my pc except for hearts & solitaire & chips challenge, so I should be all set on the GPU front

Any quick tips on which 2x2gb I should get?

I just want decent speed & excellent reliability, I'll pay a little extra for the peace of mind if necessary. I've always bought from Crucial, they are still reliable I'd imagine?

 

[DSF]

Are you overclocking? If not, stick to 1.8V DDR2-800 for the best compatibility and stability.

 

[jhammer569]

Not overclocking, and btw, just picked the ASUS P5Q-E mb. After reading about how my Q9550 can't utilize DDR3 too well and anything above DDR2-800 as well, I agree, I'll stick (pun intended?) with the 1.8v DDR2-800's. I'll check out prices at Corsair, Crucial, and Mushkin and see who has the best price, but I'm biased towards crucial so I'll probably go with them. Thanks!!

 

[jhammer569]

What about these, any preference or doesn't matter which? Keep in mind, I don't care about a 15-25$ price difference for something that I'll be using for at least 5 years. Just reliability & long usage (w/ performance a nice bonus) matters to me.

They all have rebates, so look at the rebate price:
Corsair: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16820145184
Mushkin: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16820146692
Crucial: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16820148202
Crucial: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16820148212

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Crucials have dropped in popularity because people bought them for their over-clocking reputation, but their longevity did not meet expectations under the over-clocking regimen.

The difference between the Ballistix DDR2-800s and the Tracer DDR2-800s is the blue LED lights on the Tracers -- extra bling. Otherwise, the same.

If you look at the specs compared to the Corsairs or the Mushkins, the stock latency timings are tighter, which means "faster" -- fewer clock-cycles per memory operation.

Frankly, I'd say that if you aren't over-clocking, the Crucials are a pretty good bet, because they WILL run at 4,4,4,12 at DDR2-800.

The price on the Corsairs or Mushkins is still pretty good after rebate, but if you want to run them at the timings that are stock for the Crucials, best to find some reviews which show how capable they might be of doing that.

And if you want to pay a bit more for a set of Corsairs which I've discovered -- look at the DHX models (spec'd at 4,4,4,12 and 800 Mhz.) I think -- as soon as I'd bought a set knowing there was rebate that would bring the price down close to a Franklin note, they dropped the price on me again! it may still be effective at NewEgg --

Corsair TWIN2X4096-6400C4DHX

Yup -- it is. They were posted at around $144 when I bought them more than a week ago.

BUT -- ESPECIALLY PAY ATTENTION -- you have two choices for making sure they're compatible with your motherboard: either the manufacturer has a "configurator" at their web-site allowing you to punch in your motherboard make and model to return a list of compatible kits, or you'll find some customer reviews (i.e., at Newegg, etc.) which say something like " . . . these work great with my 680i/P35/X38 (etc.) motherboard."

Also, compatibility and performance draw people on the bandwagon. So a high frequency count of customer reviews (with especially cumulative average high ratings) may mean that a particular make and model are a good bet. If the frequency count is low, it may be because they're a relatively new product, they're unusually expensive, or they're not drawing the crowd for a reason.

 

[jhammer569]

Tnx Bonzai. I just checked the ASUS QVL manual for the P5Q-E board and the crucial's actually are not listed, only the 1gig versions are. But the Corsair's you listed above in the 4gig version ARE listed. So I think to be safe, I'll just go with the Corsair's you listed, they sound good and I'll make sure they fit in my case since they are taller than usual.

Question:
I'm reading all these posts about them coming stock 5-5-5 so you need to change them to 4-4-4. Isn't that just a simple change in the bios? Why do they make it sound like it's rocket science?

Also, are there any other 'tricks' to getting 4gb running under Vista 64-bit, or should it just be good to go on a new build?

 

[Qbah]

Crossfire does support multiple monitors. It's been added months ago. SLI couldn't some time ago, don't know if it can now. But Crossfire certainly can!

If you won't do gaming just get 2 HD3470 (for 4 DVI ports). Or, if you can find HD3450 with that, get them. You won't be gaming anyway, so why bother investing in more expensive cards? And they're passive cooled, so no extra noise. And no, you can't crossfire a HD34x0 with a HD36x0 or a HD38x0. Also, Hybrid Crossfire is for the integrated HD3200 together with the HD3450 or HD3470 only afaik.

As for RAM, I'd say 8GB is overkill for now, unless you run some very specific applications. If you see that you do ened more, you can just get another 2x2GB kit, no biggie.

And I'd say definately go with Vista x64. Unless there are applications you need to run that are not compatible with it. Otherwise all that RAM will go to waste in everyday usage (amongst other things), as XP doesn't have SuperFetch.

As for the RAM speeds, the 4-4-4 setting usually needs 2.1V on RAM, which is stated on the package. However, default BIOS settings force the voltage down to 1.8V and the memory will run at 5-5-5 settings. Changing that is cake though.

 

[jhammer569]

Sapphire has a passive 3450 and 3470 w/ 2 DVI but they supposedly run very hot, so I'd rather spend a few extra bucks and know that the cards will run nice & cool. I hear my current fans buzzing all day long but it's under my desk and I don't really care much, plus I'll have the pc for at least around 5 years so if I ever decide to throw some more software at it, my cards will handle it no problem.

One last question. Folks say to always test the mem first. Without anything installed on a system, how can you test the mem sticks one at a time? Does memtest run w/o an OS installed? Is that what I should do (although I think my ASUS board has express gate so maybe something will run under the Linux that comes on the board itself)?

 

[Qbah]

Well, it's your decision in the end. However, I *do* own a HD3450, as I had it as a placeholder before my HD4870 for like 2 months. And the heat sink was mildly warm at best during operation You can also ask dug777, he had a HD3450 as well.

As for the memory testing, mem test works without an OS, though I don' know if it will run off an USB stick. But unless you go for cheap components, all that testing can be done using for example Prime95, as it has tests that stress both the RAM or the CPU. Though you might ask for a second opinion on that, as it was "plug and play" for me, I put everything together and it works like a charm

 

[jhammer569]

My only question then is how loud in 'real world' terms would the fans on the "SAPPHIRE 100237L Radeon HD 3650" cards really be? I don't care about cost, but if the noise difference is highly perceptible, and if the 3450's don't get as hot as about 3-4 of the newegg reviewers said it does, then maybe I would just go with the 3450's...

Can I pickup a cheap noise decibel meter or something to see what my existing computer noise is and then I'd have a baseline to compare the new stuff to by reading the specs?