How much land should Russia lose to Ukraine as war reparations?

[GunsMadeAmericaFree]

Back in the 1930's and 1940's, the Nazis started taking land from their neighbors. Then they kept doing it, more and more, because they didn't believe anyone would stand up to them. Eventually, lots of countries worked together to fight the Nazis, & the Nazis lost. Germany was their base of operations, and in the end, Germany was forced to give up land as reparations for the Nazi atrocities, especially to Poland.

As news is coming to light of mass graves and rocket attacks on civilian centers and infrastructure in Ukraine, it has become clear that the Russians are basically today's Nazis on the world stage. They will keep grabbing land from their weaker neighbors, assuming that nobody will get together and stand up to them. They will keep targeting hospitals, schools, water supply, etc. with rocket attacks. They seem to have no regard whatsoever for human life.

Assuming eventually that NATO or some other group eventually takes Russia to task on all of this, and forces them into a situation where reparations are being discussed, how much land do you think Russia should be forced to give to Ukraine to make up for their suffering?

I haven't seen other people discussing this, but I think it is high time that people start thinking about what punishment Russia needs to have forced on it, so that it doesn't keep doing this sort of thing over the next hundred, or even 200 years. I've attached a map showing the area that I think would be a good solution for land handed over to Ukraine in reparations.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Jaskalas]

How much land should Russia lose to Ukraine as war reparations?

Let's just start by making Ukraine whole again.
We ARE dealing with a nuclear country. And it is not certain that they will survive their own internal pressure after such a colossal failure.
It is better for us to stand by and BE there for the People's Republics who want to be free.

Prolonging the war is not in our interests. Neither are reparations. Peace is its own reward.

 

[brycejones]

Let's just start by making Ukraine whole again.
We ARE dealing with a nuclear country. And it is not certain that they will survive their own internal pressure after such a colossal failure.
It is better for us to stand by and BE there for the People's Republicans who want to be free.

Prolonging the war is not in our interests. Neither are reparations. Peace is its own reward.

This

 

[ivwshane]

I’d be happy with overthrowing Putin. The Russians themselves are mostly the victims of propaganda.

 

[pmv]

I'm not even sure Russia should lose Crimea. The status of that region always seemed pretty arbitrary to me. I was OK with Russia hanging on to it before (no worse than the US having Guantanamo or Diego Garcia) , though now there seems to be a certain 'rough justice' if their unjustified aggression in this war results in them losing it, so I'm not really that bothered either way.

As far as losing other territory goes, there's clearly a possibility that the country, or 'Federation', could break up entirely as an indirect consequence of Putin's humiliation. Again, if it happens it happens, I see no reason to risk a continuation of war or a nuclear escalation, to try and bring it about by force.

 

[Bitek]

Russians from all Ukrainian lands including Crimea, Russian army humiliated and effectively destroyed, and a continued level of sanctioning until Putin is out of power seems like a good win to me.

 

[Jaskalas]

I'm not even sure Russia should lose Crimea.

Crimea is absolutely the consequence that should, that must, happen.
If for no other reason than it'll prevent Russia from controlling the Black Sea again. Making it much harder for Russia to cause another famine.
Oh, and it will secure Ukraine's southern flank. Helping prevent another war from Russia by making a repeat that much more difficult.

However, this falls under making Ukraine whole. I do not consider it taking Russian land. Such an idea would instead look like Ukraine reaching the Caspian Sea.

 

[pmv]

By the OP's logic the US should probably have lost territory as punishment for Iraq and Afghanistan, or even Vietnam. Even though I entirely oppose the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and agree it's the right thing to do to arm and support the Ukrainians (and really wish Putin would hurry up and die of whatever it is he has), the self-rightousness and lack of self-awareness of Americans over this still annoys me every now and then.

Regarding Crimea (where the local population do seem to want to be part of Russia, more genuinely so than with the eastern provinces where the 'referendums' are clearly entirely invalid), maybe the US should lead by example by returning Diego Garcia to its original inhabitants and Guantanamo to Cuba? Even Okinawa is questionable, as while the Japanese government is OK with the US base there, the locals don't seem to entirely agree.

 

[K1052]

Regarding Crimea (where the local population do seem to want to be part of Russia, more genuinely so than with the eastern provinces where the 'referendums' are clearly entirely invalid), maybe the US should lead by example by returning Diego Garcia to its original inhabitants and Guantanamo to Cuba? Even Okinawa is questionable, as while the Japanese government is OK with the US base there, the locals don't seem to entirely agree.

The Russian administered referendum in Crimea was equally a sham. No, that's Ukrainian territory an no amount of Russian excuses should be allowed to obfuscate that immutable fact.

 

[pmv]

The Russian administered referendum in Crimea was equally a sham. No, that's Ukrainian territory an no amount of Russian excuses should be allowed to obfuscate that immutable fact.

Not what I've heard (regarding the views of the Crimeans)

But what's your view on Diego Garcia or Guantanamo or Okinawa?

Crimea only became Ukrainian territory in the '50s, during the Soviet era. I can't say I'm particularly bothered who has it - if Russia loses it because of this war, so be it, they arguably deserve that as quid-pro-quo for the crimes commited in this conflict, but I wouldn't want to risk further conflict over that issue if it were avoidable.

Seems to me that US opposition to Russia goes beyond a legitimate commitment to justice and opposing aggression. There's clearly great-power rivalry involved as well.

 

[theeedude]

Russia could have kept Crimea with little cost and consequence if it stopped there. But it doubled down on a losing hand, and now it will have to return everything. As far as other regions of Russia as reparations, it's unlikely. Most likely financial reparations in form of surrendering seized central bank reserves and a tariff on Russian oil and gas exports.

 

[K1052]

Diego Garcia

Chagossians should be allowed to return and be compensated for the exile. Since it was uninhabited until European colonization the question of ownership is sort of irrelevant.

Guantanamo

We lease the naval base not the province, which we have not attempted to steal (in a while anyway).

Okinawa

We remain at the explicit invitation of the host government. If Japan asks us to leave we would leave.

Crimea only became Ukrainian territory in the '50s, during the Soviet era. I can't say I'm particularly bothered who has it - if Russia loses it because of this war, so be it, they arguably deserve that as quid-pro-quo for the crimes commited in this conflict, but I wouldn't want to risk further conflict over that issue if it were avoidable.

Not letting Russia redraw maps at will has value beyond the mere possession of the peninsula. Anyway it went to Ukraine in the breakup so there it should stay.

Seems to me that US opposition to Russia goes beyond a legitimate commitment to justice and opposing aggression. There's clearly great-power rivalry involved as well.

Peace and security in Europe is in our interest. 99% of America would be happy never to think of Russia at all if they were not such troublemaking expansionist murdering dicks.

 

[fskimospy]

Chagossians should be allowed to return and be compensated for the exile. Since it was uninhabited until European colonization the question of ownership is sort of irrelevant.



We lease the naval base not the province, which we have not attempted to steal (in a while anyway).



We remain at the explicit invitation of the host government. If Japan asks us to leave we would leave.



Not letting Russia redraw maps at will has value beyond the mere possession of the peninsula. Anyway it went to Ukraine in the breakup so there it should stay.



Peace and security in Europe is in our interest. 99% of America would be happy never to think of Russia at all if they were not such troublemaking expansionist murdering dicks.

Yes, the foundational basis of the current international order is that you can’t take land through violence. Therefore Crimea must be returned to Ukraine, the rightful owner.

If Crimea genuinely wants to be part of Russia and votes so as part of a free and fair election I think that would be a basis for genuine talks about that transfer of sovereignty. That went out the window in 2014 though.

I also wonder how pro-Russian those in Russian occupied Ukraine are at this point. My guess is not very.

 

[K1052]

I also wonder how pro-Russian those in Russian occupied Ukraine are at this point. My guess is not very.

Those left alive to have an opinion anyway.

 

[Indus]

Prolonging the war is not in our interests.

I disagree.

I wouldn't mind at all if Russia and China were occupied in a long bloody war.

Those 2 got to sit on the side lines and give military aid and weapons to our rivals while we suffered for 20 years in afghanistan.

I would love for them to suffer for 20 years!

As for reparations.. it sounds unlikely but giving back all of Ukraine and Crimea is a start and maybe no military presence for 50 miles within a NATO border.

 

[Jaskalas]

Seems to me that US opposition to Russia goes beyond a legitimate commitment to justice and opposing aggression. There's clearly great-power rivalry involved as well.

Re: Crimea.
This is Ukraine's decision, not ours. If they want it, take it. If they don't, okay.

 

[Jaskalas]

If Crimea genuinely wants to be part of Russia....

After their takeover, Russia began a large scale mass migration campaign to move Russians into Crimea.
Is it any wonder how Russians would vote?

Far as we know... Russia may have conscripted and thus moved out and or killed off the native Crimean people.
In this context, a vote makes no logical sense.

 

[Leeea]

But what's your view on Diego Garcia or Guantanamo or Okinawa?

Okinawa:
Both the ( US, Japan ) agree Okinawa is Japanese territory. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_Prefecture

I do not see the controversy here.


Diego Garcia:
Let the locals decide in a free, fair, and internationally recognized election*.

*knocking peoples doors in and forcing them to vote at gunpoint is not a free or fair election.


Guantanamo:
After the Spanish American war the US was granted the right to naval bases and land on Cuba. This was part of the treaty with the Spanish empire, and this same treaty granted Cuba the right to self determination. The US then entered into a contract with new government of Cuba, and received unused and unoccupied land for a yearly fee. No natives were evicted, and the Cuba population associated showed up after the US established its military base.

In short, if Cuba does not like Guantanamo, Cuba needs to renegotiate the contract. Until then, it is a legal use of Cuban land.

 

[zinfamous]

All of Ukraine plus St Pete's, and maybe gift Moscow to China as a protectorate city-state.

 

[gorobei]

politics of who is entitled to what aside, from a pragmatic standpoint there will be some interesting lines to be drawn assuming the war ends.

it will be at least 50 to 75 years (2 to 3 generations of people) before anyone in Ukraine will ever trust russia to not invade again. so there will need to be a defended border and/or dmz with armed pillboxes, minefields, and tank traps. that land will be lost, no productive agricultural use or housing, which is an economic loss. (it will be interesting to see how artillery positions are set up after the war. given the ability of western mlrs and guns to outrange the russian stuff.)

it would be nice if said dmz pushed more into the russian side of the border given they were the aggressor, but in order for that to work Ukraine would have to win so overwhelmingly that no one on the russian side would want to live near the border of the people that hate your guts and kicked your ass in the last war.

 

[amenx]

Reparations for WW1 basically set the stage for WW2. You dont want to impose reparations involving land grabs on any powerful country regardless of how weak or defeated it may seem to be.

 

[Jaskalas]

Reparations for WW1 basically set the stage for WW2. You dont want to impose reparations involving land grabs on any powerful country regardless of how weak or defeated it may seem to be.

Let the cost be derived from lack of trade.
We must carry both a carrot and a stick, and I believe our best approach is with future trade negotiations.

 

[Lezunto]

GunsMadeAmericaFree: Guns permitted the slaughter of nearly millions of Native Americans and the subjugation of millions.

The Ukraine-Russo war isn't over yet and already you're trying to impose your will?

This is why so many countries despise the U.S. All your stance is going to do is create intense resentment among the Russians.

You are not after discussion .. you want domination.

 

[amenx]

Let the cost be derived from lack of trade.
We must carry both a carrot and a stick, and I believe our best approach is with future trade negotiations.

Agree to some extent, but OP was talking about punitive land reparations where Russian territory is given to Ukraine. That is a recipe for future wars.

 

[Pens1566]

Return to pre-2014 boundaries as a start. Compensation in addition for war crimes, etc. Putin replaced/removed.