how much have lcd black levels improved?

[desura]

Plasmas are increasingly hard to find. How much have the black levels for LCD tvs improved?

 

[cmdrdredd]

They are much better than years past and getting better with each generation. Full Array LED backlighting with local dimming can get really close to Plasma. The problem is the TVs are fatter and thus don't look as visually appealing to many customers purchasing.

 

[Anubis]

who still makes full array local dimming? i thought most stopped because they didnt sell as well because of the "bulk"

my rents have one and its nice, also has a matte screen which is really hard to find now

 

[cmdrdredd]

who still makes full array local dimming? i thought most stopped because they didnt sell as well because of the "bulk"

my rents have one and its nice, also has a matte screen which is really hard to find now

I inferred that in my comment, but yeah they are fat and people want thin. Still, My Sony w900a gets solid blacks. With my Pioneer on the way out (I'm trying to hold out for 4k to replace it), I gravitate toward the Sony for most of my viewing.

 

[ImpulsE69]

I don't understand the whole "thin" thing. I don't know anyone who hangs their main tv on the wall. They all put them on stands (as do we) so it really doesn't matter if they are 1/2" thick or not. I get that some do hang them, but just doesn't seem like EVERYONE is wanting micro thin tv's and if they are putting them on a 2 foot deep stand sitting a half foot away from the wall, then it's pointless anyway.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I don't understand the whole "thin" thing. I don't know anyone who hangs their main tv on the wall. They all put them on stands (as do we) so it really doesn't matter if they are 1/2" thick or not. I get that some do hang them, but just doesn't seem like EVERYONE is wanting micro thin tv's and if they are putting them on a 2" deep stand, then it's pointless anyway.

In the store, thinner TVs look "high tech" and "fancy" to casual buyers. The same people who buy a TV because the colors are brighter even if it is a worse overall image.

FWIW: I have both my Plasma and my new LED/LCD on articulating mounts with wiring going through the wall to hide it.

 

[Exterous]

In the store, thinner TVs look "high tech" and "fancy" to casual buyers. The same people who buy a TV because the colors are brighter even if it is a worse overall image.

FWIW: I have both my Plasma and my new LED/LCD on articulating mounts with wiring going through the wall to hide it.

But the thin ones have a contrast ratio of 5,000,000:1!

 

[ProchargeMe]

From what I've seen a select few LCDs can match the depth of plasmas as far as "real blacks", but sadly most LCDs I see offer good color but washed out or smudgy blacks. Plasmas are cheaper and they just seem to display colors and blacks better, and the "woes" of owning a plasma are nearly non-existant. I've had my plasma for 5 years and have never had burn in issues even once, but I can't speak for all brands, only the ones I've owned. You almost can't go wrong with a panasonic, samsung, or vizio unless you're looking at bargain models.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Plasmas are increasingly hard to find.

Samsung and LG still make them. Or buy a Panasonic online before they are all gone.

The problem with LCDs are not the black levels. I mean, they do suck and if you are spoiled on plasma/OLED almost every LCD looks like washed out garbage. But that is not the real problem.

The real problem is the motion blur. Even 240hz LEDs are worse than a bargain plasma for motion.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Samsung and LG still make them. Or buy a Panasonic online before they are all gone.

The problem with LCDs are not the black levels. I mean, they do suck and if you are spoiled on plasma/OLED almost every LCD looks like washed out garbage. But that is not the real problem.

The real problem is the motion blur. Even 240hz LEDs are worse than a bargain plasma for motion.

Yep.

The only LCD's that match Plasma's cost about twice as much, and still have motion blur.

It's been said before, but what helps LCD and kills Plasma in stores is the lighting. Plasma's simply aren't as bright, and a ton of lighting like you have in Best Buy, Sears, etc, really beats down their colors and contrast, while an LCD can go brighter than you'd ever, ever need it to, so they just turn them up and in that lighting environment, they "look better". That lighting makes the whites on a Plasma look dirty.

But shut the lights off and set the TV's for darker-room viewing, and the tables are reversed. That's when you see just how awesome the black levels you keep hearing about are and what a difference they make. And I for one, certainly can't stand an LCD on torch mode in the dark.....it practically burns your eyes, so the brightness advantage goes away in your living room....unless you have a ton of windows and watch a lot of movies in the daytime. I don't have or do either, so Plasma is untouchable in my home environment.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Well in a few years time when you are looking for a new tv. Plasma won't exist at all. Then what? No more tv for you? Lol

I learned to live with LCD now and it isn't that bad. Realistically there will probably be no other affordable option once everyone needs to replace that plasma.

 

[ProchargeMe]

Well in a few years time when you are looking for a new tv. Plasma won't exist at all. Then what? No more tv for you? Lol

I learned to live with LCD now and it isn't that bad. Realistically there will probably be no other affordable option once everyone needs to replace that plasma.

As fast as technology changes I'm sure there are already options for plasma users to switch, but in a few years who knows what will be in our panels. If 4k TV catches on and grows in popularity then everyone will start making them, and thus the prices will drop, as will the price of an OLED TV will in a few years time. I, for one will be sad when I can no longer purchase a plasma. I'm planning on getting a new tv very soon and I will try my damndest to make sure its a plasma.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Well in a few years time when you are looking for a new tv. Plasma won't exist at all. Then what? No more tv for you? Lol

I am personally trying to horde Panny plasmas while I can to get through the "dark ages" of TV that are coming.

 

[Anubis]

Well in a few years time when you are looking for a new tv. Plasma won't exist at all. Then what? No more tv for you? Lol

by then most hope OLEDs will be affordable. OLED based LCDs are very nice actually and can match plasmas, the only issue is very few exist and they cost a stupid amount of money

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

I don't understand the whole "thin" thing. I don't know anyone who hangs their main tv on the wall. They all put them on stands (as do we) so it really doesn't matter if they are 1/2" thick or not. I get that some do hang them, but just doesn't seem like EVERYONE is wanting micro thin tv's and if they are putting them on a 2 foot deep stand sitting a half foot away from the wall, then it's pointless anyway.

an extra inch or 3 isn't going to matter either when hung on a wall.
thin is overrated.

 

[JackBurton]

by then most hope OLEDs will be affordable. OLED based LCDs are very nice actually and can match plasmas, the only issue is very few exist and they cost a stupid amount of money

Exactly. I'm holding out for 4K OLED which shouldn't be far off.

I'll be honest though, I recently saw Samsung's 85" 4K set in person and it was absolutely gorgeous. Unfortunately the MSRP of $40K was scary. Gorgeous display though.

 

[JackBurton]

an extra inch or 3 isn't going to matter either when hung on a wall.
thin is overrated.

Nah, as long as you aren't sacrificing PQ, the thinner the better. Hell, even if you aren't mounting the TV on the wall, the extra space behind the TV helps in hiding equipment to give a nice clean look.

 

[Anubis]

Nah, as long as you aren't sacrificing PQ, the thinner the better. Hell, even if you aren't mounting the TV on the wall, the extra space behind the TV helps in hiding equipment to give a nice clean look.

the thickness is a total non issue when just putting it on a stand because the base is a lot wider than the TV itself be it 1 inch thick or 3. that extra 2 inches really isnt gonna do squat for helping to hide stuff

 

[phillyman36]

You should check out the CES 2014 videos and articles being posted. I believe a lot of the 2014 Vizio led/lcd are going to be Full Array Led Backlight. And a very aggressive price point for the 4k P series. Still waiting for final confirmation


http://www.avsforum.com/t/1510136/2014-vizio-thread-all-models

 

[desura]

As fast as technology changes I'm sure there are already options for plasma users to switch, but in a few years who knows what will be in our panels. If 4k TV catches on and grows in popularity then everyone will start making them, and thus the prices will drop, as will the price of an OLED TV will in a few years time. I, for one will be sad when I can no longer purchase a plasma. I'm planning on getting a new tv very soon and I will try my damndest to make sure its a plasma.

I seriously doubt 4k will catch on. I mean, resolution is about diminishing returns...so IRL PQ might increase like 30% but IRL bandwidth and costs associated with it would increase like 400%.

 

[poofyhairguy]

I seriously doubt 4k will catch on. I mean, resolution is about diminishing returns...so IRL PQ might increase like 30% but IRL bandwidth and costs associated with it would increase like 400%.

Exactly.

The problem is content content content.

We don't have 4k on optical disks, so that is out. And our cable providers are already giving us 720p or 1080i channels to reduce bandwidth usage. If one did had "4K" it would be a token bullet point and so heavily compressed that upscaled Blu Rays would look better. Even if a Netflix tried to go around them you have to deal with data caps.

Consoles, even the Xbone and PS4, only have enough power for 1080p. Most phones are 1080p.

1080p is the most solid standard since NTSC.

 

[cmdrdredd]

by then most hope OLEDs will be affordable. OLED based LCDs are very nice actually and can match plasmas, the only issue is very few exist and they cost a stupid amount of money

Don't OLED suffer IR too and die quickly? I read that somewhere before I think.

 

[JackBurton]

the thickness is a total non issue when just putting it on a stand because the base is a lot wider than the TV itself be it 1 inch thick or 3. that extra 2 inches really isnt gonna do squat for helping to hide stuff

Tell that to XBR8 owners. That thing is the fattest LCD you've ever seen. Great PQ though. I agree though, the difference between 3" and 1" isn't that big of a deal when on a stand. I thought we were comparing something like a DLP to a modern day plasma or LCD, where thinness does make a difference.

However, if everything was equal, why the hell wouldn't you want a thinner and lighter TV? There was an argument for it years ago, but that was because you had to sacrifice PQ for a thinner display. Now with OLED on the horizon, you could have both which is the direction we should be moving toward. Everyone dreams of hanging their TV like a framed picture. And with thinner and lighter displays that becomes a possibility. All we need now is some wireless power. Wireless HDMI is already in the works, they just have to get the kinks worked out.

 

[JackBurton]

I seriously doubt 4k will catch on. I mean, resolution is about diminishing returns...so IRL PQ might increase like 30% but IRL bandwidth and costs associated with it would increase like 400%.

You'd be wrong then. The only question now is if the industry is going to settle on 4K or just make the jump to 8K. This is reminiscent of the "old days" when people argued over 720p vs 1080p. But like the AT&T commercials say, more is better. And if you need proof of that, take a look at the new 4K 85" TVs in person. Absolutely stunning. 85" is the new 50". Back in the day, 50" sets were HUGE, now they are common place. Same will be for the large UHDTV sets coming out.

And if you are concerned about content, BD's look fantastic upconverted to 4K. Obviously not the same as true 4K content, but it will serve as a pretty damn good temporary solution.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Exactly. I'm holding out for 4K OLED which shouldn't be far off.

I'll be honest though, I recently saw Samsung's 85" 4K set in person and it was absolutely gorgeous. Unfortunately the MSRP of $40K was scary. Gorgeous display though.

I think all the current OLED's ARE 4k....but good luck with the wait for them to become affordable. It's not going to be this decade.