How much do you think it's worth spending on cooling?

[Greenlepricon]

As I'm making a list of parts to use in my dream loop, I've noticed that my pockets are starting to feel pretty light. I'm approaching the $600 mark now and may have to shave off a few bucks to make sure I have enough left over to appease my girlfriend afterwards. It's expensive but I've been waiting to do this and am going to see this project through to the end!

It's silly that I've never spent more than $200 or so in the past, and all of a sudden I shot way past that to an amount that I ever thought I would spend, with much of the focus on efficiency and looks. Not to mention is also gives me an excuse to play with my computer a little more.

I know I'm not the only crazy one in this forum. So with that in mind I'm wondering how much time and money people in this forum will spend to have a cool, quiet, and awesome looking computer? What parts get the short end of the stick, and likewise which parts do you go all out on? Thanks everyone!

 

[BonzaiDuck]

As I'm making a list of parts to use in my dream loop, I've noticed that my pockets are starting to feel pretty light. I'm approaching the $600 mark now and may have to shave off a few bucks to make sure I have enough left over to appease my girlfriend afterwards. It's expensive but I've been waiting to do this and am going to see this project through to the end!

It's silly that I've never spent more than $200 or so in the past, and all of a sudden I shot way past that to an amount that I ever thought I would spend, with much of the focus on efficiency and looks. Not to mention is also gives me an excuse to play with my computer a little more.

I know I'm not the only crazy one in this forum. So with that in mind I'm wondering how much time and money people in this forum will spend to have a cool, quiet, and awesome looking computer? What parts get the short end of the stick, and likewise which parts do you go all out on? Thanks everyone!

Well, Lepricon, it's all a matter of stocks and flows. I assume you have a monthly flow of income and a monthly flow of expense. Some income gets diverted to savings -- a stock. A monthly budget can be altered over a future time-horizon with new priorities.

I'm pretty much under the same or similar constraints, but I have no urgency for completing my project right away. I might wait until spring to order my "core components" as Newegg calls them. I might choose my radiators, pumps and reservoir, fittings and hoses before then, put it together with a PSU and test it before I move on to install the motherboard, CPU and RAM.

With custom water-cooling, I don't want my high-end system to become part of a risk expectation while I experiment with water-cooling components.

I've given myself an upper limit of $500 for the water-cooling budget, but the actual total may be something less than that. "Custom" kits can be found in the range of $140 to $300+. AiO coolers are priced to overlap the lower boundary of custom, I think.

Ask yourself, given the processor's TDP, how much you intend to overclock, and how much that overclock may push thermal wattage. Hopefully, as you eyeball descriptions of other water-cooled projects here and at other OC sites, you can get an idea of what would be adequate. From there -- how much it will cost in total.

Are you in a tremendous hurry? Do you have a computer at the moment that works well -- upon which you can rely?

Just thought I'd throw a different slant on the problem.

 

[bryanl]

$600 is very reasonable for a high performance computer. On the other hand, even $100 for cooling is approaching absurdity. Spend enough to keep everything cool enough, not to minimize temperatures just for the sake of minimizing temperatures, and to cool quietly.

 

[dma0991]

So with that in mind I'm wondering how much time and money people in this forum will spend to have a cool, quiet, and awesome looking computer? What parts get the short end of the stick, and likewise which parts do you go all out on? Thanks everyone!

Watercooling can be considered a hobby to some; thus the question of time and money can be irrelevant to those who are passionate about it. As for me, I try to achieve all three (cool, quiet, looks) but less emphasis on the last one as it would take too much to achieve the level of looks seen on MDPCs.

I would most likely spend less on cosmetic improvements and focus more on the core performance. Parts like fancy spiral reservoirs, pump accessories(if deemed unnecessary), lighting, etc. I think that it can be made to be very simple and still look awesome.

 

[DigDog]

"worth", whatever a 212 evo costs.

i dont see why you should stick with that though, as you can just buy it for e-peen. price-efficiency drops off after basic air cooling,;overspending to get a better system is not a problem, it all depends on what is appropriate for your income.

 

[MongGrel]

NH-D14 works for me, but whatever floats your boat I guess.

It's a popular thing to do, but I never have put water in my computers over the decades I guess.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

$600 is very reasonable for a high performance computer. On the other hand, even $100 for cooling is approaching absurdity. Spend enough to keep everything cool enough, not to minimize temperatures just for the sake of minimizing temperatures, and to cool quietly.

I'd never spent more than $100, but always close to that amount. did I spend $80+ on my NH-D14? Can't accurately remember, but it seems to be in the ball-park. I usually spend up to $10 if I need more IC Diamond paste, and I'm seldom satisfied with the fans provided with Noctua coolers -- or any others for that matter.

But your point here seems close to what I'd suggested in some other thread earlier. You can add all sorts of extra cooling capacity, but you may only succeed in keeping the processor at (say) 45 or 50C while you succumb to a temptation of over-volting the CPU for higher speed. One would really not want to do either -- unless you expect to use a CPU for a limited time before replacing it.

The LN2 crowd and the "world competitions" don't demonstrate anything of much immediate practical value because the costs are extremely high and the benchmarks are taken at 1.6V, as opposed to a more modest limit dictated by specs. Is there some myth associated with this? Myths are often partially true, and no less misleading.

I haven't researched any vetted journal papers which deal with the relevant issues. I only "know" so much, and I only recall so much of things I'd read online or in print.

 

[Greenlepricon]

Thanks for the responses! Right now it's sorta funny cause I'm running a g3258, but that's another story. What will end up watercooled is likely a 4790 and whatever gpu I buy to replace my 7950. I'm in no hurry to do this and am more doing this as a college graduation gift to myself. My timeframe is probably early spring just like yours Bonzai, but probably around tax return season just so I don't have to pull money aside from my paychecks for the time being. I'll have to keep looking and see what I feel is worth it, but it's something I've wanted to do for years and as dma0991 perfectly put it, t's something I love to do, not to mention much cheaper than some other hobbies friends of mine have

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Thanks for the responses! Right now it's sorta funny cause I'm running a g3258, but that's another story. What will end up watercooled is likely a 4790 and whatever gpu I buy to replace my 7950. I'm in no hurry to do this and am more doing this as a college graduation gift to myself. My timeframe is probably early spring just like yours Bonzai, but probably around tax return season just so I don't have to pull money aside from my paychecks for the time being. I'll have to keep looking and see what I feel is worth it, but it's something I've wanted to do for years and as dma0991 perfectly put it, t's something I love to do, not to mention much cheaper than some other hobbies friends of mine have

I was originally star-struck with the "bling" dimension around 2007. In the middle of my project, I asked myself why go further on the "bling" axis -- everything else was working fine.

Generally, the "bling" aspect is knitted to water-cooling projects more often than not. It would seem worth the trouble if you planned to sell the rig long before the "core components" become obsolete. Or it would seem worth the trouble if "that's what you wanna do" and the machine becomes a conversation-piece when friends visit your man-cave.

It was easier to continue focusing on cooling effectiveness and computer performance, and I'm still happy with my ugly-eyesore HAF midtower cases.

so with those very material latter factors as first priorities, I look for a happy balance. No need to "over-cool" a system if it doesn't affect performance or over-clockability (which may or may not include over-volting. For me -- NOT.)

I think it's a good idea to seek "biggest bang for the buck." Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Cerb]

$600 is very reasonable for a high performance computer. On the other hand, even $100 for cooling is approaching absurdity. Spend enough to keep everything cool enough, not to minimize temperatures just for the sake of minimizing temperatures, and to cool quietly.

CPU HSF: ~$55
Fans: ~$30, then ~$45
Video: ~$70
PSU: $100 (once the MIR comes back)

I'm well into absurdity .

 

[aigomorla]

I know I'm not the only crazy one in this forum. So with that in mind I'm wondering how much time and money people in this forum will spend to have a cool, quiet, and awesome looking computer? What parts get the short end of the stick, and likewise which parts do you go all out on? Thanks everyone!

my cooling on my system goes well into the 4 figures alone if it makes you feel any better.

6 Pumps ~ 80 dollars each = 480 dollars.
4 Radiators ~ 350 dollars..
1 Reservior ~ 70 dollars
2 Drive bay Res ~ 240 dollars
1 full board block ~ 150 dollars
2 gpu blocks with sli bridge ~ 300 dollars
1 cpu block ~ 80 dollars...
20 ft of Premium Tubing ~ 50 dollars
A Lot of Premium Fittings ~ 200 dollars
12 High performance fans ~ 360 dollars

And

1 Gallon jug of distilled ~ $.89


Total ~ $2280.89

Thats just on my cooling.

Now im not like Adam to go all out with bells and whistles, but i do get close in hardware.

I will spend on my Core hardware:

$300-400 on motherboard.
$1100 on CPU
$1200 on GPU(s) (i refuse to pay more then $599 for a single GPU)
$300-500 on Ram
$500-750 on SSD(s)

It takes a full day to strip it down complete.
It takes another full day to do a complete scrub down, and radiator flush.
It takes me roughly 3 days to a complete week to fully assembly + leak test my system from complete strip down.

When it comes down to it, is it worth it?
Its my hobby, its what i like to do when im not gaming, or working.
So yeah, its fun, only when its my system and not someone else's.


When i build for myself, i dont short end stick.
If i build for a friend, i keep note if they are a gamer or a causal facebook blogger.
From there, it determines what cpu + video card + SSD capacity goes into the system.

600 for a average user is decient.
1000 for a mid-high level gamer i noticed is also decient.

Then there are people like me, who does not understand the word "overkill" and tends to outdue each previous build we have done just to see how fast we can fly.

 

[ClockHound]

...$1200 on GPU(s) (i refuse to pay more then $599 for a single GPU)...

Good to know your draw the line somewhere. Even if it's so high in the high end, most of us would get nosebleeds and terminal wallet cramps. ;-)

 

[Greenlepricon]

Dang aigomorla, I think I understand why they made you the god on this end of the forums now! I love the gallon of distilled at the end there just to round out the components. I'll be taking my DI from the lab I work in so that I don't have to worry about that cost in my build . In all seriousness though I would love to see what you could do with that amount of money. That has got to be one hell of a fun build.

 

[PliotronX]

As much as one can afford if overclocking or noise is of any importance is how I see it

 

[BonzaiDuck]

As much as one can afford if overclocking or noise is of any importance is how I see it

The "lens" by which I focus my air-cooling is a Gentle-Typhoon AP-30 PWM fan, with a top-end of 4,200 RPM (uncontrolled). I determined that with thermal fan-control, the maximum benefit of the airflow arises around 3,200 to 3,400. But even at 3,600 with 4-core temperature-average above 70C, there is now very little noise. And before someone says "C'mon! That's a noisy fan!" --- there are four layers of Spire foam-rubber around the fan and the duct to the rear of my D14.

Either way, a law of diminishing returns applies. You could spend more and more on a more elaborate loop or loops, and clamp temperatures to some level close to ambient. You will still be climbing the steep part of an exponential increase of voltage to get higher clocks.

If your priority with your computer is the use of it -- gaming, office apps, media -- whatever -- it makes as much sense to make choices in "trade-offs" that compromise with the diminishing returns.

Some could say the same logic applies to multi-GPU SLI/Crossfire applications. How much extra performance do you get with two cards? With three? With four?

 

[Cerb]

C'mon! That's a noisy fan!


I wouldn't go there, but if the foam gets rid of the bearing whine from those RPMs, the air itself is about all that will make other noises of note.

2x NF-P12 PWM, 250 (idle) to 950 (P95 or Furmark), soon to be that and 2 fans on a GTX 970 (again), but I might try a 3rd 120mm fan, to see if it helps, at sufficiently low RPMs (passive PSU, and HDD stays spun down most of the time, plus rests on foam).

 

[james1701]

Until you can run a rig fully overclocked and the fastest fan at only 800RPM do you really appreciate spending the money.

 

[Greenlepricon]

Until you can run a rig fully overclocked and the fastest fan at only 800RPM do you really appreciate spending the money.

That's what I'm hoping for! Going from my last pc which sounded like a coffee grinder under load to my fractal design r4 with low noise parts and soundproofing was a phenomenal transition. I'm hoping putting this thing under water is going to be just as rewarding of a change

 

[james1701]

I'm not going to say what I spent on my CPU loop, but you figure dual D5's on a 360 push pull, flow meters, multiple temp probes, and you can start to imagine. One of my favorite things was the Aquaero fan controller, worth every penny.

The only thing I hated was when I came up on the short end of the stick on my GPU's. I had non-reference Gigabyte 7970GHZ editions. The only choice was generic universal blocks. So now, I am stuck waiting on performance to catch up to make it worth my money to get a new card that I can use a full cover block on. So if you are thinking about buying a new GPU, and you want to add it to your loop, try to stick with a reference design. It will make life much less complicated for you later on.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

C'mon! That's a noisy fan!


I wouldn't go there, but if the foam gets rid of the bearing whine from those RPMs, the air itself is about all that will make other noises of note.

2x NF-P12 PWM, 250 (idle) to 950 (P95 or Furmark), soon to be that and 2 fans on a GTX 970 (again), but I might try a 3rd 120mm fan, to see if it helps, at sufficiently low RPMs (passive PSU, and HDD stays spun down most of the time, plus rests on foam).

It worked out pretty well. You can "hear" the white noise (air turbulence) when the system is totally loaded under a stress-test and temperatures in the processor are around 70C. If you listen, there's still just a hint of the motor, but we're talking about the AP-30 @ ~3,200 to 3,600 RPM.

Gaming doesn't raise the CPU beyond 50C or so, and it is totally quiet. It's even reasonably quiet while stress-testing. Your air-condition vent could be noisier on a warm day.

The AP-30 is a noisy fan -- at its top-end. My AP-30 isn't noisy at 500 RPM or so lower. And all the air that flows into the case flows through the D14 cooler and out the exhaust.

 

[greybaby]

IMO, how much you want to spend on cooling is only really important once you get to a certain dollar range OR if you really care about noise. In other words, if you play with headphones on you should spend very little on cooling. I just prefer better performance after a certain point.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

IMO, how much you want to spend on cooling is only really important once you get to a certain dollar range OR if you really care about noise. In other words, if you play with headphones on you should spend very little on cooling. I just prefer better performance after a certain point.

We developed a culture of folks here on the forums who were constantly looking for inexpensive ways to beef up their rigs. And you can find a whole bunch of DIY projects -- maybe still in the web -- going back as far as 2003 -- bong coolers, hand-made water-blocks -- you name it.

There are a lot of ways to deal with noise. Water-cooling tends to require more fans, and even pumps make noise.

You only get better performance through cooling if a cooler CPU yields more stable and higher overclocks. It is possible to cool the processor really well, but there must be a thermal threshold for de-stabilizing electrical noise, so the cooler CPU mostly allows you to push voltage higher -- which can be as damaging as high temperatures.

Me -- I'm going to spend what I need to spend to get the cooling I want, but there's no sense in spending more than that. You can only fit so much stuff in a computer case, and complexity (more fans, thermally controlled; more radiators and pumps) adds another possibility of problems.

I really marvel at folks who have double water-loops or who include three gfx cards in the cooling loop -- that's a lotta bucks. In the forthcoming year, I am definitely going to get ample water-cooling for a Hassy-E, but it's still going to include a balance of simplicity. The biggest hassle is matching the case to the radiators, IMHO.

If you have a lot of money to spend, that's good -- build your bling-laden computer and get an X processor. But you can also build a darn good system for less than top-end.

 

[Greenlepricon]

I think when looking at expensive projects such as these, you really have to understand and accept what diminishing returns means. It's expensive, and a $300 setup probably isn't going to be much better than a $600 setup unless you really just want everything in your loop to be expensive. It will be nice for me to not hit the thermal ceiling every time I overclock and have the fans down low at the same time. I do have a decent headset I will wear, but I much prefer turning my speakers up when playing. I could just spend $300 in cooling and buy a $300 headset I suppose to get similar results, but that's not nearly as fun . Part of me even wants to design a stupid cooling mod, but one step at a time right? I don't even generally buy the most expensive parts, so this loop is a deviating a bit from my norm. I think that if I can give myself an excuse for a computer project then I'll generally see it through. It makes for a great hobby and gives me something to be excited about, so that's worth the stupidity and effort of it all for me

 

[aigomorla]

The biggest hassle is matching the case to the radiators, IMHO.

False!

the biggest hassle is trying to keep your original budget! :biggrin:

Thats why i always tell people... set a defined budget, then add a extra 100-200 dollars, because most likely you will exceed your original budget!

I think when looking at expensive projects such as these, you really have to understand and accept what diminishing returns means. It's expensive, and a $300 setup probably isn't going to be much better than a $600 setup unless you really just want everything in your loop to be expensive. It will be nice for me to not hit the thermal ceiling every time I overclock and have the fans down low at the same time. I do have a decent headset I will wear, but I much prefer turning my speakers up when playing. I could just spend $300 in cooling and buy a $300 headset I suppose to get similar results, but that's not nearly as fun . Part of me even wants to design a stupid cooling mod, but one step at a time right? I don't even generally buy the most expensive parts, so this loop is a deviating a bit from my norm. I think that if I can give myself an excuse for a computer project then I'll generally see it through. It makes for a great hobby and gives me something to be excited about, so that's worth the stupidity and effort of it all for me

this is actually a mix in tought process.
Having the extra capacity can also mean less noise..
Less RPM's on fan required to achieve same cooling potential.

Also 80% of the cooling equiptment in a custom liquid cooling setup can be recycled.

The only things usually which cant are the GPU full cover blocks, Motherboard full cover blocks, and tubing.

CPU blocks only require a new retention harness, which most reputable vendors are quick at releasing, if required.

For example, i did not piece my LC setup in one go.
It is a product of collection of ever so pieces which i got each setup, and was recycled.

2 of my pumps even date back to my first venture in real custom watercooling. Yes i am running original DDC-2's

Even my fittings are stuff i have just collected each build, and store to recycle in future builds...

Once a person gets to the level i am at in water, things like this is quite common:

That is probably about 400 dollars in fittings...

 

[Cerb]

False!

the biggest hassle is trying to keep your original budget! :biggrin:

Thats why i always tell people... set a defined budget, then add a extra 100-200 dollars, because most likely you will exceed your original budget!

That's good advice. I do that even with air.