How many CD/DVD drives can you run off a single USB 2.0 port before it starts to slow down.

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
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I've looked up the device bandwidths. It seems like at 52x I was at ~7.5 drives per USB 2.0 port. Of course, those are theoretical bandwidths and the USB 2.0 one (60MB/s) I've never seen in the real world. And I would be using a hub most likely.

I was ripping an audio book yesterday and wishing I had a loader robot since it requires a lot of manual intervention. I'd thought about trying to build a robot out of something (unrealistic) or buying an old loader off ebay (I seem to recall them being expensive and they probably require a lot of babying).

Then I realized I was really over-complicating things. I regularly see external DVD burners on sale for like $13. Why not just brute force the problem and make a stack of them. Solve it parallel instead of trying to speed up serial.

A quick ebay even shows if you want used you can buy them for $8 shipped all day long. Those are internal sata though. With limited SATA ports I'd have to use port multipliers (seem finicky and not commonly used) and get creative with mounting and external power. USB external drives are marginally more expensive but hubs are stupid common, power is an easier to solve issue and they would be easier to mount or I could just not mount them anywhere and stack them up.

I'm mostly looking for thoughts or any gotchas I might not be thinking of.
 

Paperdoc

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Aug 17, 2006
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Hubs are certainly a good way to connect many external devices. In fact, very often when you do that you do NOT actually use all or even several of them at the same time, so the bandwidth limitation really applies only to the devices actually in use simultaneously. One thing to watch out for, though: for devices like CD or DVD burners, the USB2 system can NOT supply enough power to operate them just from a USB2 port. The external devices each will need their own power supply module so they don't rely on the host port for power.

I have run into one source of slow-down on occasion. It seems to me that, sometimes if you are in the habit of disconnecting USB2 devices and then re-connecting them to different ports without maintaining a fixed port assignment plan, the USB system can get confused. I think it somehow associates device drivers it has for all the USB2 devices it has dealt with on this system with particular ports the devices normally show up on. But if that set of associations gets too messy and confused, the system has difficulty finding the right driver for the most recent item newly plugged in. On a couple of occasions I have simply used Device Manager to remove all my USB2 devices, unplugged them all, and rebooted. Then I re-started by plugging the devices back in one at a time and letting the system load the drivers until they are all working again.

OP, if you really are concerned about slow performance of many devices through a Hub, one way to avoid that would be to switch to USB3 systems. Now, that would require three things, of course. You'd need a USB3 port(s) on your computer (could add via a PCIe card) and a powered USB3 Hub (one with its own power supply module), and of course you'd need all or most of your added devices (DVD or whatever) to be of the USB3 design. Further, for burners such as you contemplate, they will still need their own power supply modules - even the higher power available from USB3 ports is not likely sufficient for a burner unit. The bandwidth available on USB3 is much bigger than USB2. However, I get that this might make your plan for many cheap external drives unworkable - not sure you can get cheap ones in USB3 type.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
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OP, if you really are concerned about slow performance of many devices through a Hub, one way to avoid that would be to switch to USB3 systems. Now, that would require three things, of course. You'd need a USB3 port(s) on your computer (could add via a PCIe card) and a powered USB3 Hub (one with its own power supply module), and of course you'd need all or most of your added devices (DVD or whatever) to be of the USB3 design. Further, for burners such as you contemplate, they will still need their own power supply modules - even the higher power available from USB3 ports is not likely sufficient for a burner unit. The bandwidth available on USB3 is much bigger than USB2. However, I get that this might make your plan for many cheap external drives unworkable - not sure you can get cheap ones in USB3 type.

Its an interesting point about the USB3.0 option. I actually felt like for CD Ripping at least I could just use a few more hubs and still have plenty of bandwidth. I was looking at whether I should pick up cheap external drives ($11-14 for generic ones on ebay) or build the kit out using internal drives.

I was going to just use an old ATX PSU I already have to power them so no real cost there. I was having a hard time finding really cheap usb to sata converters though, it seems like even generic chinese ones are $4-6 but they are USB 3.0. Unfortunately they're intended for 2.5" disks so they also provide power. So I'm not sure if they'll work with optical drives and I'll need to use a sata extension cable as a standoff so I can use real power. This setup is more complicated and probably more expensive (not by a lot, if the generic adapters work) has some unknowns but would theoretically have no performance issues.

I should probably find a good generic USB3.0 to sata adapter and test it before buying more.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
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@Paperdoc is indeed correct from reading around that the whole chain will have to be USB 3.0 to actually benefit from USB 3.0's extra bandwidth. Otherwise it will be functionally no different than USB 2.0.

I'm not really loving my options for 3.0. I can find some sata to USB 3.0 adapters that claim to support optical drives, but not super cheap ones. Spending $16-20 per $8 drive greatly balloons total cost. I think I've ruled out external drives. I can find USB 2.0 converters that when combined with an internal drive don't cost any more than the external drives. And from reading around, while USB 2.0 provides plenty of bandwidth for even a full speed DVD drive it doesn't provide plenty of POWER which seems to really limit these external drives speeds.

The only cheap option I have are buying USB 3.0 to sata converters like this one:
https://www.amazon.com/SATA-Drive-A...b+3.0+to+sata&qid=1554904384&s=gateway&sr=8-6
They're designed for 2.5" drives so I'd need to buy sata data extension cables to get clearance space so I could plug in proper power. I have plenty of sata cables lying around but not extension cables so that's an extra thing to get. And that's assuming they even work with optical drives.
 

Paperdoc

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Aug 17, 2006
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There's a power issue to deal with, here, and a few options. The root of this is the USB specs. The USB2 specs provide from the host USB2 port to the attached device power at 5 VDC up to 0.5 A. Some SSD's MAY operate within those limits although slowly (because USB2 data transfer rate is a bit slow), but there are virtually NO HDD units that can. Even the earlier "Laptop Portable HDD's" came with either their own added power module, or a special 2-headed USB cable that had to be connected to TWO host computer USB2 ports to get enough power to run. The new USB3 specs provide power up to 0.9 A, and "Laptop Portable Hard Drives" are marketed now that DO operate on this power with no additional power module, but ONLY when they are connected to a USB3 port that can provide that power. These units contain small 2½" size low-power-use HDD's to do this. Note that not ALL 2½" HDD's can work within this power limit, although many do. Thus you can buy such complete units, and you can also buy Adapters that connect a 2½" laptop HDD with SATA connections to a host USB3 port. But in order for that to work, you must ensure that the HDD you plan to use CAN work with no more than 0.9 A current for its heaviest current draw.

Now, these options do NOT extend to using 3½" size HDD's designed for use in desktop systems for two major reasons. One is that these typically operate faster and require more than 0.9 A to run. The other is that the desktop units require BOTH 5 VDC and 12 VDC supplies readily available from the desktop's PSU via the SATA power connection, but a USB port of either generation has NO access to 12 VDC.

If you intend to be able to use desktop machine peripherals like HDD's or optical drives, your connection system (enclosure or adapter) MUST provide both the amps and the two voltages needed. Thus your adapter or enclosure MUST include its own power supply module for this - it cannot rely solely on the host computer's USB port.

Now, when we get to external optical drives, we have a similar issue. There are such devices designed to be used with USB3 ports and capable of working within the power limits there, and these are sold as complete finished units like the Laptop Portable Hard Drives. There are VERY few optical drives that are sold as bare units without cases, although some are sold as replacement units for laptop machines. Again, if you were to get such a bare unit for use with an adapter, you would have to be sure it CAN operate within the power limit of the USB3 port. and I'm sire there are NONE that could operate from a USB2 port without a separate power supply module that would have to come with the adapter. Of course, a USB3 Portable Optical Drive (complete unit) can NOT operate on the power from a USB2 port.

So, what are the options?
1. Go entirely USB3. If using a desktop computer without those ports, you could add a USB3 card to the PCIe slots, and that card would come with a connector on board that must have plugged into it a power supply connector from the PSU. (The PCIe bus cannot supply all the power for several USB3 ports, so this connection provides that.) Use the ports on that card for any complete pre-made USB3 Laptop Portable Optical Drive. OR get bare Laptop Optical Drive units with SATA interfaces that you are sure can operate within this power limit AND some USB3-to-SATA adapters that do not have any extra power supply modules. OR get optical drives of whatever size plus adapters that DO come with their own power supply modules and state clearly that they can be used with both 2½" (laptop) and 3½" (desktop) SATA devices. This way gives you all the power your devices need to work, and gives you fast USB data transfer speeds. If the ports on the USB3 card in the PCIe slot are not enough, you can add an external powered USB3 Hub to add more, but be sure the Hub comes with its own adequate power supply module so it does not rely on the host computer's (added) USB3 port for power for all the Hub's drives. If you are working from a laptop machine with no USB3 ports, see the next option.

2. "Cheat" on USB3. Get a powered USB3 Hub - that is, one that comes with its own power supply module so that all its connected devices can have the standard USB3 power availability (still the 0.9 A limit), then use all USB3 devices as above. But for the connection to your computer, use only a USB2 port on the host. This will give the devices all the power of standard USB3 ports, but the data transfer rate will only be USB2 because the host computer's port limits it. This may be a little cheaper becasue you are not buying a USB3 card to mount in the PCIe slot. And of course, it works when you don't even have any PCIe slots for a card.

3. Stick to a USB2 system, but now you need to provide the power needed. You can plan to connect the drive units either to the host's USB2 ports, or to use a non-powered USB2 Hub. I say non-powered because you will have to provide the required power directly to each drive unit - they could not work on USB2 power, anyway. Then you need to mount the SATA optical drive in an enclosure suited to the drive design (laptop 2½" or desktop 3½"), and with its own power supply module. OR you use an adapter that also comes with its own power supply module. Some of these can handle either size of optical or HDD unit, and some can handle only the smaller Laptop Portable drives. But in that last case, you would have to ensure that the optical drive unit you use with the adapter can work within those USB3 power limits, because that's all the adapter can provide. This path may be the least expensive, but you will only get the slower USB2 data tansfer rates, and you will need to esnure that the drives you choose can work with the adapter or enclosure you choose.

OP, that adapter you linked to can work ONLY with USB3 drive units (so they can work within the power limit) AND only with USB3 ports on the host computer that DO suppply that power (Option 1 above) or by using a powered USB3 hub in the line (Option 2).
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
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OP, that adapter you linked to can work ONLY with USB3 drive units (so they can work within the power limit) AND only with USB3 ports on the host computer that DO suppply that power (Option 1 above) or by using a powered USB3 hub in the line (Option 2).

Thanks for your thoughts. My plan was to try to use that adapter combined with a SATA DATA extension cable so that I could use power straight from an ATX PSU with the drive. The booger is I don't have any SATA DATA extension cables (well, I'll dig in my box tonight just in case). I can't really confirm the device will be compatible with optical drives, I think it probably is but since its not its intended use its hard to determine.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
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599
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OP, that adapter you linked to can work ONLY with USB3 drive units (so they can work within the power limit) AND only with USB3 ports on the host computer that DO suppply that power (Option 1 above) or by using a powered USB3 hub in the line (Option 2).

Thanks for your thoughts. My plan was to try to use that adapter combined with a SATA DATA extension cable so that I could use power straight from an ATX PSU with the drive. The booger is I don't have any SATA DATA extension cables (well, I'll dig in my box tonight just in case). I can't really confirm the device will be compatible with optical drives, I think it probably is but since its not its intended use its hard to say with trying it.
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
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That might be a bit tricky. The adapter is a one-piece molding that contains both the data (smaller) and power (wider) connectors to fit onto the back edge of the drive unit. How you can arrange to connect ONLY the data lines from it to the drive, then connect the power separately from a different cable, I don't know.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
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599
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That might be a bit tricky. The adapter is a one-piece molding that contains both the data (smaller) and power (wider) connectors to fit onto the back edge of the drive unit. How you can arrange to connect ONLY the data lines from it to the drive, then connect the power separately from a different cable, I don't know.

Yeah, its a bit of an open question. I was going use a sata data extension cable:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Speed...735309&hash=item2607be2f69:g:xosAAOSwIO9cdxQO
But I'm also not sure if that would fit since I guess there could be some clearance issues. I have similar sata combined plug devices at home, if I had a extension cable I could confirm. I guess I'll order one but it'll take a month to get here from China. I suppose I'm not in a hurry.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
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No real update on this project, except that I bought one of those USB 3.0 2.5"/SSD oriented adapters off of amazon. The extension cable came and I found I had to snap off the bracing pieces on the back to get it to fit into the the adapter but once attached to a DVD drive with PSU power it worked in linux. There are different chipsets so I'm not sure all of them would work but it did work.

I have a better type of adapter (its basically the combined power/sata data in a gender changer format) coming that I'm going to try, I can't remember if I'll have to snap off the braces on that or it'll be fine without.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
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Any recommendations for a USB 3.0 hub? I'd prefer one with 8-10 ports. Since I've separated out the power for the device I only need to power the USB -> SATA adapter chips. I guess its possible a bus powered one would actually power 8 of these just fine, I'd imagine they use very little power on their own.
 

Paperdoc

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Aug 17, 2006
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I don't have one myself, so the best I can do is show you some examples of units that have the right specs, including a power supply module sufficient to provide the full 0.9 A per port to all ports simultaneously - that comes to 4.5 W per port.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...&cm_re=USB_3.0_hub-_-9SIA6RA55T6086-_-Product

That has 10 ports and claims it supplies enough power, although the power module specs do not specifically say it provides 9 amps total at 5 VDC. Talks about charging uses, but does not appear to have ability to supply more than the 900 mA USB3 standard current on any port, which is quite OK for you - you do not plan to use this for extra-fast charging of devices.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...re=USB_3.0_powered_hub-_-17-707-403-_-Product

That has 8 standard USB3 ports plus two "charging" ports that can supply higher current for charging devices quickly. Not clear to me, but I believe those extra 2 ports CAN be used as normal USB3 ports. Includes a good power supply module (48 W, or 9.6 A max at 5 VDC) for 10 ports, plus several cords to plug into various international outlets.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...re=USB_3.0_powered_hub-_-17-392-115-_-Product

That has 10 ports and includes a 12 VDC 60 W power supply module. (The hub itself converts that to 5 VDC power for the ports.) Note 10 standard USB3 ports at 5 VDC, 0.9 A each comes to 45 W. Claims each of its ports can charge at a non-standard increased rate of up to 1.5 A, but you could not do that with ALL ports simultaneously, which you would not need, anyway.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...SB_3.0_powered_hub-_-9SIA2XB39B7664-_-Product

That has 10 ports - 6 on front, 2 on back, 2 flip-up ports on top. Comes with 12VDC 48W power supply module, sufficient for full standard USB3 function on all 10 ports simultaneously.

There are others to be sure, but that's a good representation of what exists, and what power supply modules are required.