How many Americans deaths will Trump be directly responsible for due to COVID-45

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How many American will die due COVID-19 due to Trumps incompetence/indiference?

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woolfe9998

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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alexruiz said:
That is a good point, but keep in mind that many of those complications would NOT appear if they didn't get COVID.
The analogy that I use is someone getting in a car crash, but not dying at the scene. What will be the cause of death? trauma? internal hemorraging? stroke because of blood clots?
In the end, however, none of those things would take place if the accident didn't happen.
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I think he knows that. He is saying that CDC is having trouble determining CoD from the death certificates because they usually list the complication rather than the disease as immediate CoD. And that the doctors who do this aren't being fraudulent. They are just using the standard procedure for what to list as CoD.
 
kitkat22

kitkat22

Golden Member
Feb 10, 2005
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woolfe9998 said:
I think he knows that. He is saying that CDC is having trouble determining CoD from the death certificates because they usually list the complication rather than the disease as immediate CoD. And that the doctors who do this aren't being fraudulent. They are just using the standard procedure for what to list as CoD.
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Precisely. Did covid cause the death? Yes. It led to the series of events that caused the death. In this case respiratory failure caused by covid.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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SmCaudata said:
Lastly, I believe that any physician that lies about cause of death or misleads the public should lose their license. Either it is intentional and they are violating their oath or they don't actually believe reality, which makes them grossly incompetent.
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Why would any physician do such a thing anyway? (Except, maybe, there could be cases where they keep quiet about suicide because there's sometimes a bit of a stigma, in some cultures at least.)

I don't think that's an issue in the pandemic at all. Obviously there is going to be scope for subjectivity sometimes, deaths rarely have one single "cause". Hence those 'excess death' figures are what pandemic death rates get based on in the end.

I read somewhere a physician saying we _overestimate_ the death rate from flu. Because it's calculated from the excess death rates, and this article was saying the numerical factors used for that estimate are too large.
 
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Y

you2

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2002
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Cause their president suggest they should....

pmv said:
Why would any physician do such a thing anyway? (Except, maybe, there could be cases where they keep quiet about suicide because there's sometimes a bit of a stigma, in some cultures at least.)
Click to expand...
 
Y

you2

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Apr 2, 2002
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The bigger issue was that a president administration would take the colour of a state into account as to how he should respond. It isn't the first time nor the worse he has done but think about the insanity of how the republicans are acting. Numerous times starting with the new tax bill in 2016 they have made decisions with the sole intention of 'sticking' it to the blue states.

Roger Wilco said:
Covid is only affecting blue states though.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1315856349964759040
Click to expand...
 
MtnMan

MtnMan

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Jul 27, 2004
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If a person dying of a terminal disease is being transported from the hospital to a hospice facility, but is killed en-route in a traffic accident, what cause of death should be put on the death certificate?
 
vi edit

vi edit

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Oct 28, 1999
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My own guess has been around 700k for US deaths through next summer/early fall. At the time I thought that was sort of a worst case. Well, looks like that's just our new reality.

Don't confuse freedom with "Too stupid, too proud, and too stubborn to take simple precautions". This is solidly an American disease. Both in practice and outcome.
 
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SmCaudata

Senior member
Oct 8, 2006
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pmv said:
Why would any physician do such a thing anyway? (Except, maybe, there could be cases where they keep quiet about suicide because there's sometimes a bit of a stigma, in some cultures at least.)

I don't think that's an issue in the pandemic at all. Obviously there is going to be scope for subjectivity sometimes, deaths rarely have one single "cause". Hence those 'excess death' figures are what pandemic death rates get based on in the end.

I read somewhere a physician saying we _overestimate_ the death rate from flu. Because it's calculated from the excess death rates, and this article was saying the numerical factors used for that estimate are too large.
Click to expand...
Because people are biased. Why do doctors prescribe meds more when they have pens and clocks with the name on them? Why did the coroner for George Floyd say his COD was due to pre-existing conditions?

We are seeing huge numbers of deaths from pneumonia and dementia. Dementia itself doesn't really kill if you use your previous post. The underlying inciting event in these cases is COVID. Everyone knows it. You can be as concrete and literal as you want, but don't distort reality. If someone goes into respiratory failure due to COVID infection, COVID was the cause of the respiratory failure,, and therfore COD.

There are doctors that use their power to paint a narrative. Doctors aren't altruistic, flawless beings. I am one. I see it every day.

EDIT: This is why excess deaths is probably the best measure of death due to the disease. This is a lagging indicator, but likely give the closest approximation to actual impact.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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vi edit said:
My own guess has been around 700k for US deaths through next summer/early fall. At the time I thought that was sort of a worst case. Well, looks like that's just our new reality.

Don't confuse freedom with "Too stupid, too proud, and too stubborn to take simple precautions". This is solidly an American disease. Both in practice and outcome.
Click to expand...

Meanwhile, the superspreader in chief stages covid parties all over the country, because of course he is. And he feels powerful, hopped up on steroids & God only knows what else-

www.npr.org

Trump Hits The Trail With Florida Rally, A Week After COVID-19 Hospital Stay

The president's doctor said Monday night that Trump had tested negative for the coronavirus on consecutive days and that he was not infectious to others. The rally starts a new sprint in the campaign.
www.npr.org www.npr.org

It's a crime against America that only a deranged narcissist would even contemplate.
 
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woolfe9998

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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MtnMan said:
If a person dying of a terminal disease is being transported from the hospital to a hospice facility, but is killed en-route in a traffic accident, what cause of death should be put on the death certificate?
Click to expand...

As I understand it, the standard practice would be to identify CoD as MVA.
 
SMOGZINN

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,202
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MtnMan said:
If a person dying of a terminal disease is being transported from the hospital to a hospice facility, but is killed en-route in a traffic accident, what cause of death should be put on the death certificate?
Click to expand...
Obviously the car accident. I've known people that lived in hospice for 4+ years.
 
P

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,049
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SmCaudata said:
Because people are biased. Why do doctors prescribe meds more when they have pens and clocks with the name on them? Why did the coroner for George Floyd say his COD was due to pre-existing conditions?

We are seeing huge numbers of deaths from pneumonia and dementia. Dementia itself doesn't really kill if you use your previous post. The underlying inciting event in these cases is COVID. Everyone knows it. You can be as concrete and literal as you want, but don't distort reality. If someone goes into respiratory failure due to COVID infection, COVID was the cause of the respiratory failure,, and therfore COD.

There are doctors that use their power to paint a narrative. Doctors aren't altruistic, flawless beings. I am one. I see it every day.

EDIT: This is why excess deaths is probably the best measure of death due to the disease. This is a lagging indicator, but likely give the closest approximation to actual impact.
Click to expand...

I agree with your last line (or edit) entirely. I've said as much myself several times.

I don't entirely see why there would be a consistent bias among doctors in either direction, though. And bias is one thing but you said 'lies' - lying is a strong accusation. I'm reluctant to believe doctors would outright _lie_ about cause of death, on any sort of large scale.

What I keep seeing are people claiming, sans evidence, that the bias is the other way - that doctors are blaming COVID when they shouldn't. I personally suspect, if anything, the death numbers are a bit higher than are reported. But, as you say, it will take an analysis of excess deaths to work out the truth. That is, I understand, what they do for flu (though also, as I said, I've seen it claimed that that figure is in turn overestimated).
 
MtnMan

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
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Grey_Beard

Grey_Beard

Golden Member
Sep 23, 2014
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MtnMan said:
Fucking crazy eyes...
Click to expand...

As well as crazy thoughts and stances that have no rhyme or reason based on other/past communication. Maybe the character was based on Rudy since he has been on this slide for a while now.
 
I

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,017
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cscpianoman said:
For those who dont know, cause of death for statistical purposes is actually more challenging than just saying Covid of MI. I sign off on 1-2 death certificates per week and let me share my thought process.

People dont just die from covid, they die from the complications of covid. People dont just die from sepsis but the complications. People die from acite respiratory failure, hemmoragic shock or cardiac arrest to name a few.

Lets say a covid patient comes to the hospital and despite best care dies. The patient most likely died from acute respiratory failure secondary to sepsis due to covid19. You could substitute sepsis with viral pneumonia or acute interstitial lung disease. The point is covid doesnt just cause automatic death.

Lets say someone came in with a large laceration from a MVA and died of blood loss and incidentally was found covid positive. The patient died from hemorrhagic shock due to laceration of femoral artery due to motor vehicle accident. As part of the statistical process there is a drop down requesting the patients covid status at the time of death, but it is NOT the cause of death.

This is why the CDC is having a weird time figuring out death certificates. 6% said primary cause is COVID. That is incorrect, the patient died from complications of covid and the death certificate is intended to provide a "sequence of events" that led to their death.

No physician that i work with would lie regarding the cause of death. There is no point or incentive. It does nothing but confuse the subject.
Click to expand...

Lots of people are convinced that the real number is less than 100k deaths because doctors are writing fake death certificates to get paid. It doesn't matter that you educate that no one gets money for how they fill out a death certificate. It's ridiculous.
 
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