How many agree with Stem Cell Research?

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Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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Originally posted by: Tab
You've a got a extremely crude understanding of goverment funding.

He sure does. Science has been and will continued to be pushed by government funding. The US can stop funding science, but it will see its competitiveness go down.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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You fail to differentiate between adult and embryonic stem cells.

If there's money to be had, the private sector will do the research.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
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Originally posted by: Riprorin
You fail to differentiate between adult and embryonic stem cells.

If there's money to be had, the private sector will do the research.

Maybe, maybe not. But I can tell you this with absolute certainty: private businesses will seek to make huge, gigantic profit at the expense of human life. If you can't afford the cure, you will die. That is unacceptable.
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
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I wish I could see the look on Glenn's face when he comes back and looks at this.
 

Amplifier

Banned
Dec 25, 2004
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Originally posted by: glenn1
If the US falls behind in an area as important as stem cell research it's going to hurt us. Maybe not now, but 20 years from now. The medicine created via stem cell research has significant economic value and some country is going to take advantage of it whether we do or not.

Since stem cell research will happen regardless of our restrictions, we might as well lift them so America's can be the ones profiting.

Your line of reasoning contradicts itself. If it's that profitable, a Merck or Pfizer will pursue it, and we won't need to have federal funding. If it won't be profitable, they won't. Those companies spend billions on R&D annually, and have people making huge salaries to determine whether a particular line of research will produce a profit over the hurdle costs the company sets.

I swear, some people obviously just enjoy paying higher taxes. That's the only possible explanation I can see why they are so keen to have the federal government play the role of a venture capitalist.

First off, Pfizer isn't going to put a billion dollars into research that may be banned the second it's released. The government can take risks of that nature.

Secondly S Korea will loosen regulations on stem cell research and act as the venture capitalist for the asian drug industry. Decades from now America will have to look overseas for modern medicine.

Normally I would support you in limiting government spending. Talk to me about cutting social security and welfare benifits and we'll probably agree. But technology is America's greatest asset and we can't let ourselves fall behind to any other country.

Edit: Oh and venture capitalists fund technology that people want. This include big screen TV's, fancy cars, casino's, and viagra (anything profitable enough to justify costs). The government funds technology that American's need. Medical research, weapons, etc. But I forgot, capitalist markets are completely efficient right?
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN
Originally posted by: glenn1
see my previous post in this thread for a counter to your second.

Your second point isn't a counter, it's a diversion. Defense spending is expressly authorized in the Constitution as an allowable expenditure of funds, pharmacology research is not. The amounts spent are completely immaterial. We could spend twice as much on the millitary and that would be Constitutionally permissable, whereas spending a dime on a project like this (or even one of such unarguable value as curing the common cold) would not be.

I get it, you are a libertarian. You believe in almost no Federal government at all, except for national defense. But here is what I don?t get, what about all the other things that the government pays for (i.e. roads, hospitals, police, fire, teachers, Federal Police (FBI, US Marshals), etc.) the constitution does not specifically say any of those are allowed, so should the government shut down the FBI?

Oh wait, I know, the belief is that in a purely capitalistic environment, corporations would provide all the above and if you did not like what they were providing you would go to their competitor to get it. Here is the problem with that idea, what if there is no competition and you had no where else to turn? How do you get the corporation that is now running the FBI, and the Fire department to give a crap about what you think?

U.S. Constitution - Article 1 Section 8
Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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I wish I could see the look on Glenn's face when he comes back and looks at this.

I'm afraid you'd be disappointed.

You've a got a extremely crude understanding of goverment funding.

I'm quite familiar and used to those who think that the federal government's job is to fund every wish list item they can dream up, lacking any understanding that this isn't mad money we're talking about. For every dollar you spend on things like this, there's one less to spend on your precious education, healthcare, social security, etc.

Stem cell research is for the good of the human race, and having the federal government help fund university research and whatnot contributes to human knowledge as a whole. Perhaps you're prefer that religious superstition and fanaticism both contribute toward the United States losing its technological leadership in the world?

Oh, give me a break. This isn't even about science, you're simply advocating spending money on the latest trendy fad. Last week it was alternative energy, this week it's stem cell research, next week it'll be nanotechnology, who the fvck knows what it'll be the week after that. In every single case you're pissing away money that could and should have been used to fund core federal government operations.

And as far as "religious superstition and fanaticism," I personally am not extremely religious so your accusation is laughable. But people like you are who the Europeans (most of whom have banned or severely restricted this type of research) fear as the memories of eugenics are still very fresh in their minds. I don't have this same concern and have no problem with the research taking place (just not federally funded), but your eagerness on it makes me a little concerned that you've not even spent even a nanosecond of thought on some of the moral complexities involved.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
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I am dissapointed there is controversy. Just because we will do work on EMBRYONIC stem cells does not mean that ADULT stem cells will not be explored. Hell the "plasticity" of a differentiated adult stem cell that allows it to turn into stem cells of other varieties is something that is being pursued right now. Furthermore, most embryonic stem cell reserach is being conducted on mice.

Just because we explore other routes does NOT mean that Embryonic is the way to go, or adult stem cells are the way to go. But it is allowing science to take its course: exploring EVERYTHING.

I swear we will all be dead before the issue really comes up (a solution that would lets say require the "sacrifice" of many totipotent cells [obvoiusly they were forced to proliferate first ;) ) to the point where we need to make decisions. There are still SOOO many problems and issues that have not been worked out that things at this point is more expiramentation and tinkering than anything else. Even Europe, the ones known for their liberalism, had a backlack a while ago and restricted research in certain aspects when the "transferred" stem cells in test patients started to turn cancerous~ the cell is one of the most complicated things in this world and it isn't something we have come even to understanding 50%.

So while all of you debate, and chew eachother's faces out scientists will conduct research in the way they normally do and maybe oneday a breakthrough may occur.
 

Gigantopithecus

Diamond Member
Dec 14, 2004
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Originally posted by: glenn1
But people like you are who the Europeans (most of whom have banned or severely restricted this type of research) fear as the memories of eugenics are still very fresh in their minds.

Obviously you aren't up to par with your knowledge of the legal status of stem cell research in Europe. (Eugenics what? I fail to see parallels between growing engineered replacement organs and pseudoscientific arguments for killing off minority groups.)

Originally posted by: glenn1
I don't have this same concern and have no problem with the research taking place (just not federally funded), but your eagerness on it makes me a little concerned that you've not even spent even a nanosecond of thought on some of the moral complexities involved.

The thoughts that the people who advocate this type of research a. might know a lot more about it than you and b. are as capable as moral reasoning as you must not have crossed your mind.

Originally posted by: glenn1
Oh, give me a break. This isn't even about science, you're simply advocating spending money on the latest trendy fad.

You wouldn't know science if it came up and bit you on the ass. What, pray tell, is your background, that makes you so qualified to dismiss entire fields of research as trendy fads?

 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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Obviously you aren't up to par with your knowledge of the legal status of stem cell research in Europe.

You are a goddamn idiot. At least know what the fvck you're talking about before you make a statement this stupid again. Germany, Italy, Austria, and Ireland have BANNED embroynic stem research. They OPPOSE any EU funding of the same from their communal taxes. Another person in the thread mentioned somatic cell nuclear transfer, Britain is the ONLY country in Europe that allows it.

The thoughts that the people who advocate this type of research a. might know a lot more about it than you and b. are as capable as moral reasoning as you must not have crossed your mind.

See above.

You wouldn't know science if it came up and bit you on the ass.

Funny that I seem to know more of it than you do. You couldn't even buy a clue.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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Gigantopithecus, here's some reading for you.

Link

(requires registration, text below)


The Great Stem Cell Race

By Robert L. Paarlberg Page 1 of 5


May/June 2005

Scientists around the world are scrambling to unlock the potential of stem cells. Governments trying to balance research and ethics have quickly learned that they have little control. Competition for top researchers and private capital is pushing the pace?and punishing those who stumble.


By the time U.S. President George W. Bush?s administration announced its policy on stem cell research in the summer of 2001, Roger Pedersen was already fed up. A top embryo scientist celebrated for deriving many of the human stem cell lines then available to researchers around the world, Pedersen had been struggling with inadequate federal funding for five years. Finally, he decided to abandon his post at the University of California, San Francisco, for the chance to head up a new institute at the University of Cambridge in England. The British government was ready to offer funding and a better regulatory environment. Said Pedersen, ?I chose to move to a country that was willing to provide support, broad support, for this research.?

He was not alone in fearing that federal restrictions would cripple U.S. labs in the race to tap the enormous potential of stem cell research. For a while, the United States had advanced quickly. In November 1998, two separate American research teams, one at Johns Hopkins University and the other at the University of Wisconsin, were the first to isolate and culture human embryonic stem cells in vitro. This medical revolution allows scientists to understand how a single undifferentiated cell?the fertilized egg?can develop into all the different tissues and organs of the human body. Embryos created through a process called ?therapeutic cloning? might eventually yield stem cells to grow tissues and organs genetically identical to those of a patient, making possible a rejection-free therapy for spinal cord injuries, diabetes, Parkinson?s disease, Alzheimer?s, or heart disease. Unlike reproductive cloning, which creates a new human being, therapeutic cloning is used only to replace certain human tissues.

The 1998 breakthroughs were immediately controversial, however, because the isolated stem cells were derived from aborted fetuses in one instance and viable embryos left over from an in vitro fertilization (IVF) clinic in the other. Stem cells are harvested from microscopic embryos just several days old in a procedure that destroys the embryo itself. It is a practice many religious and conservative organizations do not want supported with public money. In August 2001, Bush decided to restrict federal money to only the few stem cell lines already in existence at that time.


Events following that announcement seemed to justify Pedersen?s move. U.S. researchers learned that fewer stem cell lines were available for federal government funding than the president claimed. In theory, more than 60 stem cell lines were to be eligible, but intellectual property restrictions and problems with viability left only 15?18 lines available. Frustrated U.S. researchers then learned, in February 2004, that a team in South Korea had successfully harvested and cultured stem cells from a human embryo cloned using nuclear-transfer technology (the method first used in Scotland in 1996 to clone Dolly the sheep). Dr. Michael West, the president of Massachusetts-based Advanced Cell Technology, a company that had earlier attempted this experiment using private money, complained, ?The [Korean] work should have been done in the U.S.? Another top researcher, Dr. Irving Weissman of Stanford University, warned, ?You are going to start picking up Nature and Science and all the great [scientific research] journals, and you are going to read about how South Koreans and Chinese and Singaporeans are making advances that the rest of us can?t even study.?

Now it appears that, even hobbled by federal funding restrictions, the United States is still leading the world in the stem cell research race. America?s Christian right garners a tremendous amount of attention at home for its opposition to stem cell research, yet major portions of Europe have adopted policies far more restrictive than those in the United States. And, despite some impressive breakthroughs in Asia, limited access to private funds and global research networks keeps that region from sprinting ahead of the field. The United States may be the leader in this biomedical research race, but for that it has the rest of the world to thank.


Continental Drift
There has been no great exodus of U.S. stem cell scientists to Europe?and for good reason. The political and regulatory climate for embryo research is far worse there than in the United States. Not content with funding bans, several major European governments have criminalized stem cell harvesting and human cloning, even if done with private money and for therapeutic purposes. Germany?s 1990 Embryo Protection Act effectively bans all harvesting of cell lines from human embryos, and, in January 2002, a new law was enacted to prohibit imports of all stem cell lines not in existence at that time. The German Federal Ministry of Education and Research recently confirmed that a German scientist would be committing a criminal act if he so much as advised a colleague in another country engaged in the harvesting of new stem cells.

Opposition in Germany?and in much of Europe?comes not just from religious and conservative groups but also from some members of the Socialist and Green parties. Germans in particular consciously separate themselves from what they call the ?Anglo-American? approach to bioethics, which they consider to be dangerously utilitarian, and perhaps even a slippery slope toward a reintroduction of fascism. Antiabortion religious groups, anti-science Greens, and many women?s groups have joined forces to label embryo research as ?continuations of Nazi eugenics.? According to one Green Party statement, ?We Germans, in light of experiences during the years 1933 through 1945, should be sensitive, even supersensitive [to the possible abuse of embryo research].? Even some advocates for the sick and disabled oppose stem cell research in Germany, contending that the pain of disease ought to be reduced through improved social conditions and greater tolerance rather than through expensive new medical research.

In some cases, Europe?s lockdown on laboratory research has come on suddenly, more as a result of recent political shifts than long-standing concerns. New restrictions in Italy, for example, altered an earlier policy of loosely regulated research. An Italian scientist working at the University of Bologna created the first human embryos through IVF in 1961, a full 17 years before the birth of the world?s first ?test-tube baby.? Unrestricted reproduction science continued in Italy and led to the birth of a healthy baby (using a donated egg and artificial hormones) to a 63-year-old woman in 1994. Severino Antinori, the embryologist who performed the treatment, later stated he planned to clone a human.

Then came the backlash. The 2001 election of Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi and a more conservative parliament ushered in a more restrictive regulatory environment. In February 2004, the Italian parliament voted to ban almost every form of assisted reproduction, including artificial insemination using donated sperm, embryo freezing, egg donation, surrogate motherhood, pre-implantation genetic diagnosis, and fertility treatments for women beyond childbearing age. The law effectively blocked stem cell research as well. Paul Devroey, clinical director of the Center for Reproductive Medicine in Belgium, commented, ?The Italian law is the end of any progress. It is the world?s worst law ever seen, except for Costa Rica, where the constitution forbids IVF.?


Even European states that liberalize their rules have had trouble creating a conducive environment for cutting-edge stem cell research. In France, prior to the enactment of a revised bioethics law in July 2004, scientists found it difficult to import stem cell lines. One research team in Montpellier hoped to collaborate with an American lab but had to wait two years for permission from the French government to import cells. The team was on the verge of relocating its activities to the United States when the new measure passed. This law allows wider options for conducting stem cell research legally, but nonetheless bans all human cloning, for both therapeutic and reproductive purposes. The new Socialist government in Spain has also loosened its stem cell research restrictions, but the revised rules remain strict: IVF human embryos can only be used if frozen for more than five years, and only if the couple involved explicitly authorizes their use for research purposes. In November 2004, voters in Switzerland backed a new law allowing the harvesting of stem cells, yet antiabortion groups and the Green Party insisted that the new law ban all forms of human cloning. There is currently only one team of embryonic stem cell researchers at work in Switzerland, and they depend on cell lines imported from the United States.

Britain, and to a lesser extent Sweden and Belgium, has departed from the continental trend by actively encouraging stem cell research. The British government not only encourages advanced research into human biology but since 2001 has explicitly permitted?and funded?cell harvesting from IVF embryos and therapeutic cloning. Britain?s Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority issued its first cloning license in August 2004. Public funds support this work through the Research Councils UK, the main public investor for scientific research in Britain. In the spring of 2004, the Research Councils announced a new stem cell initiative that totaled $30 million for a research center at Cambridge (to be headed by Roger Pedersen) and the opening of a stem cell bank to share lines.

These efforts have succeeded in attracting some researchers from continental Europe. Britain?s first cloning license in 2004 went to a team that included a Yugoslav-born scientist who abandoned his career in Germany because of research restrictions. Yet, it has been reported that since Pedersen?s 2001 departure, no leading U.S. stem cell scientist has moved to Britain. This is partly because Britain?s public-sector model for promoting stem cell research has its own drawbacks, including uncertain public licensing, slow-moving funding cycles, and bureaucratic delays. When the Medical Research Council and the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council attempted to jointly fund state-of-the-art facilities for a British stem cell bank, red tape held up the first deposits for six months. Equally important, there is nothing in Britain or continental Europe to rival the U.S. system for mobilizing resources through partnerships between private universities, companies, venture capitalists, and philanthropic foundations.

Without a more dynamic private sector, biomedical scientists in both continental Europe and Britain will continue to see their job options shrink and their research output suffer. A 2002 European Commission study concluded that biotechnology companies in Europe were falling behind their peers in the United States: ?[T]he U.S. biotechnology industry started earlier, produces more than three times the revenues of the European industry, employs many more people (162,000 against around 60,000), is much more strongly capitalised and, in particular, has many more products in the pipeline.? Europe still trains large numbers of highly skilled scientists, yet thousands come to the United States every year to seek advanced study or employment, and more than 70 percent never return. Indeed, about 40 percent of scientists now working in the United States were born in Europe.

As a remedy, the European Commission called for special measures to encourage participation in genomics and biotechnology by small- and medium-sized enterprises. These inducements include complementary financing from the European Investment Bank and grants to business incubators through the European Investment Fund. Yet, when this strategy was officially reviewed in April 2004, progress was found to be slow. The European Association for Bioindustries commented, ?Sadly, this year?s progress report is not reporting much progress.?

Europe?s problem is lagging private investment in the sector?a condition that has worsened. As recently as 1990, global pharmaceutical companies spent 50 percent more on research in Europe than in the United States. By 2001, those same companies were spending 40 percent more on research in the United States. The European Commission attributes this state of affairs in part to the failure of eight member governments in Europe to implement a 1998 patent law directive, but many private companies view the problem as the commission itself, which they call ?the dead hand of Brussels.? Investors in Europe would like to see fewer slow-moving Eurocrats and more clear-thinking research scientists involved in funding decisions, plus a deregulated market environment; in other words, something closer to the U.S. system. Tim Wells, senior executive vice president for research at the Swiss biotechnology firm Serono, observes, ?The European research system is much too fragmented, the regulatory system is too cumbersome, and often the incentives for setting up a company are not as well developed as they are in the U.S.?



The American Bypass Operation
In October 2003, a leading British team announced the creation of three new stem cell lines, derived from a total of 58 embryos. This was an important step forward?but one quickly upstaged by events in the United States. Privately funded U.S. researchers were moving ahead even faster.

In March 2004, a new collaborative research project, the Harvard Stem Cell Institute at Harvard University, announced it had developed 17 new embryonic stem cell lines that it was ready to share with other privately funded researchers. Then, in June 2004, scientists at a private U.S. fertility clinic in Chicago produced an additional 12 cell lines, including the first cell lines ever to be derived from embryos with specific genetic diseases, such as muscular dystrophy. In December 2004, the California-based Geron Corporation, which has invested more than $90 million in stem cell research since 1996, patented a new stem cell therapy for Parkinson?s and began preparing to test a stem cell-based therapy for acute spinal cord injury.

State governments are now getting into the act as well. When the Bush administration blocked federal funding for work on new cell lines, a coalition of disease foundations, science advocates, and Hollywood celebrities turned to the voters of California, who in November 2004 gave 59 percent approval to Proposition 71, a bond issue that allows the state to make available as much as $3 billion in grants for embryonic stem cell research over the next decade. There will be plenty of qualified takers for this new research money in California, which is already home to 2,600 biomedical companies and 87 university and private research institutions with $32.3 billion in worldwide revenue and $15.5 billion in annual research outlays. Following the California vote, the governor of Wisconsin proposed spending $750 million through a public-private partnership in stem cell research and biotechnology to keep labs in his state nationally and internationally competitive. The governor of New Jersey also signed legislation last year to establish a stem cell research facility based at Rutgers University that will receive an initial $6.5 million in state funding, to be matched by $3.5 million in private funding. Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, and Texas are now also promising to put research money on the table in a bid to prevent their stem cell scientists from moving?not to Britain, but to California.

Asia?s Cellular Bid
If a strong challenger to the United States emerges in the stem cell race, it will come not from Europe but from Asia. The Korean cloning breakthrough of 2004 that unnerved many U.S. scientists is part of a larger pattern of aggressive stem cell science in East Asia. One of the region?s biggest advantages is the much lower cost of employing research talent. Biotechnology research scientists in China are employable at one fifth to one tenth the cost of comparable American talent, and China now has a growing pool of capable researchers, many with U.S. training. Asia?s scientists also benefit from strong state support. Even free-market oriented Singapore has spent $500 million on its ?Biopolis Asia,? a 2 million-square foot biomedical campus that opened in 2003. Singapore has also adopted a British-style regulatory system, hoping to attract international companies and encourage local start-ups. In South Korea, stem cell research has received significant state funding?$27 million from 2002 to 2004?in part because of the strong personal interest of President Roh Moo Hyun.

Nor do Asian scientists face as much cultural resistance to their work as their colleagues in the West. In Confucian and Buddhist societies, there are fewer religious inhibitions to the destruction of microscopic embryos. Throughout Roman Catholic Europe and in much of Christian America, religious authorities teach that a fertilized egg is already a person. In Confucian tradition, the defining moment of life is birth, not conception, and Buddhists view life not as beginning with conception but as a cycle of reincarnations. The South Korean scientist who led the 2004 cloning team said at the time, ?Cloning is a different way of thinking about the recycling of life.? It?s a Buddhist way of thinking.?

Stem cell researchers in Asia remain disadvantaged, however, by their limited connections to global research networks. The International Society for Stem Cell Research has 654 members in the United States and 56 in Britain, but only 34 in South Korea, 29 in Japan, 16 in Singapore, and 5 in China. Private investment has also lagged. Singapore?s Biopolis notwithstanding, the city-state currently has only one company researching embryonic stem cells, and none engaged in therapeutic cloning. In China, private investors remain nervous about weak protections for intellectual property, insufficient exit options for venture capital, second-rate managerial skills, and a muddled regulatory environment. Although legalized in 2004, stem cell work had already been under way for several years without central government authorization, leaving individual institutes essentially free to operate according to their own (sometimes bizarre) preferences. In 2003, a Chinese team at Shanghai Second Medical University reported using human skin cells with rabbit eggs to produce early-stage embryos, which in turn yielded stem cells. This kind of ?cowboy science? attracts newspaper headlines?as did Italy?s IVF pioneers several decades ago?but private investors know it is not the best foundation for developing reliable clinical applications. This step requires networked access to top scientists from a wide variety of disciplines (from molecular, cellular, and developmental biology, to immunology and genetics, transplantation biology, and clinical medicine), something easier to arrange in San Francisco than in Shanghai.


Indeed, South Korea?s 2004 research breakthrough was based as much on persistence as precision. The Korean cloning and harvesting team succeeded in part because it had 10 times as many researchers and unregulated access to 12 times as many eggs as the U.S. team that was attempting the same experiment. As the Korean scientists neared success, international scrutiny obliged Seoul to put in place a tighter set of restrictions on future embryo science, including a series of laws passed in January 2004 that banned human cloning for reproductive purposes, required scientists to receive prior approval for their projects, and prevented women from selling their eggs. One health ministry official commented, ?We?re getting to the point where I think Korea might be more restrictive about this kind of research than the United States.? It was an exaggeration. Still, South Korea?s recent experience suggests that even Asia may not be immune to an eventual regulatory backlash.


Growth Industries
Winning the stem cell research race has significance beyond national pride. In today?s economy, scientific leadership means more of the best and highest paying jobs. The world-leading biomedical industry in California pays out $14 billion in wages and salaries every year, and the 230,000 Californians employed in the sector earn nearly 60 percent more than the average salary in other sectors. The value of biomedical exports from California alone grew to $7.1 billion in 2003. With such social and commercial benefits on the line, and having earlier lost the information technology race to the United States, it is understandable that Europe does not want the same thing to happen now in biotechnology. But it may be too late.

In the 2004 U.S. presidential campaign, Democratic challenger John Kerry warned repeatedly that the future of American stem cell research would be at risk if the restrictive policies of the Bush administration were not changed. This view underestimated the capacity of U.S. scientists to work around a simple federal funding ban. The ban has slowed the pace of some research, and it has forced scientists to segregate their labs according to funding sources, but it has not prevented companies and labs with private funds from going where the science leads. Indeed, conservatives might eventually come to regret Bush?s decision to push American stem cell and cloning science so completely into the arms of the private sector and the states. Whereas governments in Europe have gone to the extreme of blocking all research with tight controls, the United States allows research that is not federally funded to race ahead with little or no federal control. As cloning and stem cell research move closer to clinical applications in the United States, commercial demand and private funding will strengthen, further weakening Washington?s ability to shape the future of the field.

Divergent national policies on stem cell research are unlikely to converge any time soon. In 2004, the Bush administration tried and failed to promote a comprehensive global ban on human cloning at the United Nations. The measure failed internationally for the same reason it had earlier fallen short in the U.S. Senate: Support for therapeutic cloning is strong enough to make a comprehensive cloning ban unacceptable. The formal harmonization of national policy has been impossible even within the European Union, where the commission has recognized that regulations on ethical matters are best left to each country.

Nonetheless, political and market forces may eventually drive some countries to a common point on regulating future research. As the clinical promise of stem cells emerges, more European states may decide to liberalize their policies, as recently occurred in Spain, France, and Switzerland. At the same time, the underregulated states in Asia may begin to follow the path of Singapore, and now South Korea, in accepting tighter regulation to preserve their international respectability. The United States, at least until the next presidential election, will likely continue to chart its own curious course, restricting federal money but imposing little federal control. Most other countries will reject this approach and converge instead around the regulatory standards of Britain?where generous public support for research is coupled with government monitoring and licensing. Although it may be unable to prevail in the research race, Britain may at least show the world the best way to run it.



 

Amplifier

Banned
Dec 25, 2004
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I like that article.

The point I was making before regarding public funding of stem cell research was that it's necessary to have government funding. Fortunately that article converses my point with bigger words :).

When the US declines to fund stem cell studies, the researchers go to where the money is, be it England or Korean.

Our scientific abilities are so far beyond Korean and England. I hate that they are getting credit for discoveries we should be making. It's like banning Michael Jordan from shooting and giving the ball to Horace Grant =\.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
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The point I was making before regarding public funding of stem cell research was that it's necessary to have government funding.

Only two problems with that. First, government money comes with strings. I'm not sure I like the idea of scientific research being subject to the whims of politicians. Secondly as I've pointed out, I disagree with federal funds being spent on research of this type as a general principle on constitutional grounds, not just for stem cells. I think you can grant that is a valid POV (albeit one you may not agree) without resorting to saying I'm a religious nutjob who would have scientists engaged in this type of research treated like Galileo and burned at the stake for heresy :)
 

Amplifier

Banned
Dec 25, 2004
3,143
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I wouldn't try and argue with you on the constitution, because you're right. The government has no legal right to aid research.

That said. If it comes down to a bidding war between the researchers I want the US to ante up and keep our talent/leverage. Regardless of the legalities.
 

Gigantopithecus

Diamond Member
Dec 14, 2004
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Originally posted by: glenn1
Obviously you aren't up to par with your knowledge of the legal status of stem cell research in Europe.

You are a goddamn idiot. At least know what the fvck you're talking about before you make a statement this stupid again. Germany, Italy, Austria, and Ireland have BANNED embroynic stem research. They OPPOSE any EU funding of the same from their communal taxes. Another person in the thread mentioned somatic cell nuclear transfer, Britain is the ONLY country in Europe that allows it.

Did you even read the article you copy/pasted? The UK, Sweden, Belgium, Switzerland all allow embryonic stem cell research, and to some extent fund it. I'm not sure where you get your misinformation; I get mine from friends who actually do this research over there. (Well, at least in the UK & Switzerland.)

Originally posted by: glenn1
The thoughts that the people who advocate this type of research a. might know a lot more about it than you and b. are as capable as moral reasoning as you must not have crossed your mind.

See above.

I'm not sure what you're pointing to above other than your ignorance on this topic; I don't deny others who disagree with me are capable of moral thinking that leads them to different conclusions - but I do recognize that most people really don't understand stem cell research.

Originally posted by: glenn1
You wouldn't know science if it came up and bit you on the ass.

Funny that I seem to know more of it than you do. You couldn't even buy a clue.

Then explain to me the difficulties in preventing accelerated telomere disintegration and the resulting cellular hyper-senescence in cloned lines, and how hTERT can be utilized to partially combat this effect? Or how stem cell research has supported notions that extrinsic adult mortality levels affect the rate at which different species age? By the way, this information isn't on the NIH Stem Cell FAQ or in a Biology for Dummies book, so don't try to bluff your way through it.
Again, what background qualifies your dismissive opinions on this (or any other) field of scientific research?
 
Sep 29, 2004
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I'm for George Bush to get a inoperapable cancer or similar that gives him 6 months to live. Something that stem cell research might be able to cure. Then he dies, and shortly there after, North Korea wil find the cure..

In my dreams I suppose.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
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It is my opinion that money spent by the federal government to promote the general health and well-being of the general population is money well spent. The benefits of such government spending are too numerous to list, both past and present. Dismissing stem cell research as a fad is laughable.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: glenn1
... I disagree with federal funds being spent on research of this type as a general principle on constitutional grounds, not just for stem cells.
Sorry, but you're wrong. Article 1, Section 8, Paragraph 1 of the U.S. Constitution states:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;
The Constitution doen't authorize spending Federal funds for medical research, but there is no Constitutional prohibition against such spending for the general welfare of the country or its citizens.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
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Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: glenn1
... I disagree with federal funds being spent on research of this type as a general principle on constitutional grounds, not just for stem cells.
Sorry, but you're wrong. Article 1, Section 8, Paragraph 1 of the U.S. Constitution states:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;
The Constitution doen't authorize spending Federal funds for medical research, but there is no Constitutional prohibition against such spending for the general welfare of the country or its citizens.

And the federal government has a long history of assuming powers that are not expressly forbidden in the Constitution.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: Astaroth33
And the federal government has a long history of assuming powers that are not expressly forbidden in the Constitution.
It doesn't even get into that kind of political assumption. The section of the Constitution I sited specifically authorizes Federal expenditures for the general welfare of the nation. How much greater general welfare can there be than preventing and curing illnesses common to the entire population? :)
 

Trevelyan

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2000
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I am completely in support of stem cell research, and I think the government should fund it because it very well may hold wonderful cures for many of our more terrible diseases.

But I think the question is loaded, because it does not discuss the actual moral issue: where the stem cells come from. Supporting stem cell research is NOT supporting destroying embryos. The two are separate issues.

EDIT: As an aside, I love all the attacks on religion we're getting today. Unfortunately, I can't respond to them all. I don't usually respond to rants anyways because seldom will those people even hear what you are saying.

I would say that I encourage everyone to keep their hatred of religion at least respectful, so as to promote positive discussion. That is, if you want a serious discussion. Personally, it's difficult to ignore these emotionally-driven attacks and hold a serious discussion at the same time.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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Did you even read the article you copy/pasted? The UK, Sweden, Belgium, Switzerland all allow embryonic stem cell research, and to some extent fund it. I'm not sure where you get your misinformation; I get mine from friends who actually do this research over there. (Well, at least in the UK & Switzerland.)

Wow, Sweden allows it, and "to some extent" funds it. That is some rebuttal to the facts which I posted. Calling inconvienient facts "misinformation" shows you're acting like a toddler.

I'm not sure what you're pointing to above other than your ignorance on this topic; I don't deny others who disagree with me are capable of moral thinking that leads them to different conclusions - but I do recognize that most people really don't understand stem cell research.

Stroking your own ego is hardly a rebuttal.

Then explain to me the difficulties in preventing accelerated telomere disintegration and the resulting cellular hyper-senescence in cloned lines, and how hTERT can be utilized to partially combat this effect? Or how stem cell research has supported notions that extrinsic adult mortality levels affect the rate at which different species age? By the way, this information isn't on the NIH Stem Cell FAQ or in a Biology for Dummies book, so don't try to bluff your way through it.
Again, what background qualifies your dismissive opinions on this (or any other) field of scientific research?

Resorting to logical fallacies is the last resort of those who know they're beaten. Yours is called Argumentum ad Verecundiam ("appeal to authority"). In short, you argue that someone's knowledge of stem cell research research is a requisite to render an opinion on whether it should be federally funded or not.

Check and mate on all your points. Anyone here who can offer a better challenge than this lamer?


And the federal government has a long history of assuming powers that are not expressly forbidden in the Constitution.

This isn't an argument, it's another logical fallacy, appeal to popularity. Just because the federal government has done it in the past doesn't make it correct.

It doesn't even get into that kind of political assumption. The section of the Constitution I sited specifically authorizes Federal expenditures for the general welfare of the nation. How much greater general welfare can there be than preventing and curing illnesses common to the entire population?

By this type of reading of the general welfare clause, I'd challenge you to name anything which the federal government wouldn't be allowed to spend money on. As I pointed out earlier, go ahead and spend federal dollars on this, as it's less you'll have to spend on some other money pit like welfare. Maybe if those who would like to spend money on stuff like stem cell research showed the slightest hint of fiscal discipline in any other area I'd have less of a problem with it, but those in your camp don't seem to think that tax dollars are are finite resource and have no respect for those that pay them. If you'd be willing to make any real compromise, like scuttling the unconstitutional ponzi scheme that is Social Security, I'd probably be willing to entertain the idea of $ for stem cell research. But as it is, you need to be saved from yourselves and your foolishly spendthrift inability to prioritize your desires.

 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
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Prove to me Trevelyan that beyond a reasonable doubt that by destroying embroys we are killing a person.