If I move to Europe on a work visa or something, how long is acceptable for me not to know the language? At what point am I being an "ugly american" by failing to learn the local dialect?
How long is it acceptable to go to a foreign country and NOT know the language?
- Thread starter Dameon
- Start date
Why would you not want to learn another language? Moving there would be the best opportunity.
When in Europe this summer my first thought was, "Boy! I'd go hungry here pretty quick if I didn't learn the language"
I guess you can learn what's important to you? Come to think of it, find a good looking tutor and you're all set
When in Europe this summer my first thought was, "Boy! I'd go hungry here pretty quick if I didn't learn the language"
I guess you can learn what's important to you? Come to think of it, find a good looking tutor and you're all set
I dunno' ask 90% of the mexicans here... if you can speak spanish that is.
(dang I'm really gonna' get flamed for that. I love mexicans. I speak spanish. I like to eat tacos and burritos, don't hurt me please!!!)
(dang I'm really gonna' get flamed for that. I love mexicans. I speak spanish. I like to eat tacos and burritos, don't hurt me please!!!)
Superwombat,
That is real similar to the reply I was going to make. I have interacted with way to many people here who don't speak the language and don't really seem to care.
That is real similar to the reply I was going to make. I have interacted with way to many people here who don't speak the language and don't really seem to care.
Exactly superwombat, here in Austin, I see tons of hispanics / latinos who seem to have no problem establishing a permanent residence (illegally or legally) here and failing to learn the language. I'm not going to say we should speak English only, but I honestly can't tolerate how rude it is. It is so annoying and rude to assume that the rest of the world should cow-tow to their refusal to get with the friggin program and learn to communicate. Americans have been given crap around the world for this type of behaviour, and I don't see why we should tolerate it here.
I can understand temporary visits, temporary inability to communicate... but long term refusal to get off your lazy fat arse and take the time to learn to speak with the rest of the world.. ugh. I was embarassed in Germany when I went for 8 days, feeling very dumb even when I knew a few phrases to get by... how much is this, where is the bathroom, etc. But still felt stupid and aloof, as though I wouldn't belong and be able to enjoy things fully unless I understood the language.
(prepares for 80000000000000 BTU's of flames to be hurled at him for sounding like Pat Buchanan)
I can understand temporary visits, temporary inability to communicate... but long term refusal to get off your lazy fat arse and take the time to learn to speak with the rest of the world.. ugh. I was embarassed in Germany when I went for 8 days, feeling very dumb even when I knew a few phrases to get by... how much is this, where is the bathroom, etc. But still felt stupid and aloof, as though I wouldn't belong and be able to enjoy things fully unless I understood the language.
(prepares for 80000000000000 BTU's of flames to be hurled at him for sounding like Pat Buchanan)
Well considering Dameon, that those areas were Spanish speaking before the US invaded them, they can't complain if the locals are still speaking Spanish. Afterall if Americans did not want Spainsh speaking areas of the US, what were they doing invading Texas, California, & areas in between?
Anyway, when the 1st American settlers settled on the East Coast, did they bother learning the native American languages? No, of corse not, I doubt there were Mohican speaking Puritains in the NorthEast, aye. Really its a bit hypocritical for Americans to expect 'Latinos' to learn English, when the Americans didn't bother learning the American Indian lingos in the 1st place. Over time, the vast majority of migrants eventually learn the local lingo, anyway, & even if they don't their off-spring will.
Anyway, when the 1st American settlers settled on the East Coast, did they bother learning the native American languages? No, of corse not, I doubt there were Mohican speaking Puritains in the NorthEast, aye. Really its a bit hypocritical for Americans to expect 'Latinos' to learn English, when the Americans didn't bother learning the American Indian lingos in the 1st place. Over time, the vast majority of migrants eventually learn the local lingo, anyway, & even if they don't their off-spring will.
Go to England Dameon, you should be able to learn their language pretty quickly
Or come to Belgium, Brussels, is some cases, speaking English will be more useful than French, Dutch and German alltogether (our 3 national languages). There are many people here who only speak English (European Commission, Nato, Shape or even in big banks and financial institutions such as the Bank of New York, Euroclear, Swift, ...)
Or come to Belgium, Brussels, is some cases, speaking English will be more useful than French, Dutch and German alltogether (our 3 national languages). There are many people here who only speak English (European Commission, Nato, Shape or even in big banks and financial institutions such as the Bank of New York, Euroclear, Swift, ...)
Well.. I'm from Holland myself and I can tell you that if you just pretend
you are willing to learn the Language nobody will bother ya..
We had a girl from CA in our house for a year and she had sum difficulties
learning Dutch ( it's a sh!tty language..
)But hell..who cares!
Just try to learn a bit and you'll be fine.
Just my 0.02 Euro.
Dameon: 100% agreed.
When you go to another country, it's really up to you to take the initiative to learn the local language and culture. That's not always possible for short trips, but certainly if you plan to stay there for any extended period of time (months, years) you should learn.
NastyNate: Dat Nederlands leren kan soms best wel moeilijk zijn heh?
When you go to another country, it's really up to you to take the initiative to learn the local language and culture. That's not always possible for short trips, but certainly if you plan to stay there for any extended period of time (months, years) you should learn.
NastyNate: Dat Nederlands leren kan soms best wel moeilijk zijn heh?
tagej?
WTF!?.. heheheh..
So speak a little Dutch eh?
So what's the story?
Explanations:
-Moved to the states
- dictionary at hand
- Friend nearby who speaks Dutch
- Or completely something else
Please..Enlighten me
WTF!?.. heheheh..
So speak a little Dutch eh?
So what's the story?
Explanations:
-Moved to the states
- dictionary at hand
- Friend nearby who speaks Dutch
- Or completely something else
Please..Enlighten me
you'll have a much more memorable experience if you learn the language and have a chance to really meet the people. Taking the time to learn their language usually shows that you are more then just casually interested and generally people will respond better.
Spent 2 years in the Philippines as a Peace Corps Volunteer and had to learn the language; they were impressed that I took the time and effort to do so. Also made life easier and more fun.
Spent 2 years in the Philippines as a Peace Corps Volunteer and had to learn the language; they were impressed that I took the time and effort to do so. Also made life easier and more fun.
Bring a web enabled mobile phone and keep it on The Babelfish 24/7
J/K
I think the basics will get you by and then pick things up as you go along. Its amazing how quickly you learn a language when you are forced to use it to survive.
Windogg
J/K
I think the basics will get you by and then pick things up as you go along. Its amazing how quickly you learn a language when you are forced to use it to survive.
Windogg
Afterall if Americans did not want Spainsh speaking areas of the US, what were they doing invading Texas, California, & areas in between?
Same thing Australian settlers were doing. Only substitute Spanish for Aborigine in this case.
Dameon: Many American soldiers/airmen spend three years in Germany and can speak little more than you indicated you are able to. Of course they spend most of their time in "little America" or on the base. I recall a special on German Television once about US troops not assimilating themselves. An interviewer asked one American kid "What have you seen since you've been here?" The kid answers "Hohenfels (a US training area) and Grafenwöhr (another US training area).
I went over with just a year of high school German under my belt. Really made an effort to learn the language through reading, TV, radio and of course conversing. After the second year, I was attending classes at the local German Volkshochschule or Adult Education.
Germans have a club for nearly everything. At one time even a club against the formation of new ones. So, I joined a German SCUBA club. Had many interesting adventures with the VDST. Interact with locals who share your interests and this expedites the learning curve considerably.
Friends you make over there help out the most, I'd say. The local ladies can teach you quite a bit.
I almost bought an apartment in Germany. Sometimes I regret the decision not to. Germany is a wonderful place to live.
In my opinion, between one to two years to shed the ugly American image as a civilian is about right.
Same thing Australian settlers were doing. Only substitute Spanish for Aborigine in this case.
Dameon: Many American soldiers/airmen spend three years in Germany and can speak little more than you indicated you are able to. Of course they spend most of their time in "little America" or on the base. I recall a special on German Television once about US troops not assimilating themselves. An interviewer asked one American kid "What have you seen since you've been here?" The kid answers "Hohenfels (a US training area) and Grafenwöhr (another US training area).
I went over with just a year of high school German under my belt. Really made an effort to learn the language through reading, TV, radio and of course conversing. After the second year, I was attending classes at the local German Volkshochschule or Adult Education.
Germans have a club for nearly everything. At one time even a club against the formation of new ones. So, I joined a German SCUBA club. Had many interesting adventures with the VDST. Interact with locals who share your interests and this expedites the learning curve considerably.
Friends you make over there help out the most, I'd say. The local ladies can teach you quite a bit.
I almost bought an apartment in Germany. Sometimes I regret the decision not to. Germany is a wonderful place to live.
In my opinion, between one to two years to shed the ugly American image as a civilian is about right.
"Same thing Australian settlers were doing. Only substitute Spanish for Aborigine in this case."
I'n mot the one complaining about immigrants not learning the lingo, so your analogy is pointless, burnedout.
I'n mot the one complaining about immigrants not learning the lingo, so your analogy is pointless, burnedout.
It is kinda embarassing to go to a foreign country and not know the language. But, it is kinda difficult to go to France or Germany and speaking your little French or German, because the minute you open your mouth in their language, they know you are foreign and they come out in fluent English!
Dameon: Learn the very basics before you get there -- Yes/No, Please, Thank you, How much, etc. -- buy a phrase book for that which includes numbers and familiarize yourself with them. There's no sense asking how much when you don't understand the response. The most important question? "Do you speak English?" I learned that in probably 10 languages in my year in Europe and just asking that in their language avoids a lot of the "ugly American" syndrome since they see you are trying. I saw the reaction on plenty of French faces when some idiot in American either just blurted out a question in English or simply asked "Do you speak English?" in English -- as if "Parlez-vous anglais?" is so hard to learn.
It also depends on where you are going. I spent over a week in Hungary, but I'll be damned if I couldn't learn that language despite the fact that I was with a native speaker most of the time! It's just so foreign since it's not an Indo-European language that I couldn't grasp it. You may want to consider a software program or something to learn some basics (pronunciation) and get a good dictionary and perhaps a grammar book to study from. Once you learn the basics of grammar, then read newspapers (SLOOOOWWWLY) while looking up the vocabulary. Don't pick the intellectual newspapers (like Le Monde in France), or you'll go nuts with trying to find the "high" language they use.
Best guess? After a few months, you should probably be able to conduct yourself around with too much help (assuming no head start), but it's really hard to tell without knowing your ability for language and without knowing what language you'll learn. In Europe, Finnish/Hungarian/Basque would be the hardest, Spanish/French/Italian would be the easiest. It also depends on the country since some countries have tons of English speaking people who will hear your accent and switch to English (the Netherlands, for instance -- nearly everyone I met spoke English very well), making it difficult to learn since they won't speak the language unless you ask (depends, but I ran into that).
Bottom line: Make an earnest attempt to learn and to be a good guest, since that's what you are. Respect their country, their heritage, their language, and their people, and they will return the courtesy. Be a jerk, and they will speak quickly and refuse to translate.
The most important question? "Do you speak English?" I learned that in probably 10 languages in my year in Europe and just asking that in their language avoids a lot of the "ugly American" syndrome since they see you are trying. I saw the reaction on plenty of French faces when some idiot in American either just blurted out a question in English or simply asked "Do you speak English?" in English -- as if "Parlez-vous anglais?" is so hard to learn.It also depends on where you are going. I spent over a week in Hungary, but I'll be damned if I couldn't learn that language despite the fact that I was with a native speaker most of the time! It's just so foreign since it's not an Indo-European language that I couldn't grasp it. You may want to consider a software program or something to learn some basics (pronunciation) and get a good dictionary and perhaps a grammar book to study from. Once you learn the basics of grammar, then read newspapers (SLOOOOWWWLY) while looking up the vocabulary. Don't pick the intellectual newspapers (like Le Monde in France), or you'll go nuts with trying to find the "high" language they use.
Best guess? After a few months, you should probably be able to conduct yourself around with too much help (assuming no head start), but it's really hard to tell without knowing your ability for language and without knowing what language you'll learn. In Europe, Finnish/Hungarian/Basque would be the hardest, Spanish/French/Italian would be the easiest. It also depends on the country since some countries have tons of English speaking people who will hear your accent and switch to English (the Netherlands, for instance -- nearly everyone I met spoke English very well), making it difficult to learn since they won't speak the language unless you ask (depends, but I ran into that).
Bottom line: Make an earnest attempt to learn and to be a good guest, since that's what you are. Respect their country, their heritage, their language, and their people, and they will return the courtesy. Be a jerk, and they will speak quickly and refuse to translate.
OK I should repent of my cynicism. I spent some time in southern California, in areas where Spanish was the primary language, and even though I couldn't speak it perfectly, people just seemed pleased that I would try. Bottom line, it's never a bad idea to learn all you can of a foreign language, if for no other reason than that it will help you understand your own better.
BoberFett
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 37,562
- 9
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Total immersion will get you there quickly. A girl where I work spent a few years in Germany, one day she just decided she wanted to move there, and did. She didn't know one word of German, and she said she was able to carry on a conversation after about 2-3 months. This might no be typical, but if you don't allow yourself to use English, you'll learn it quickly through necessity.
Slight OT, but a while back, PBS did a documentary on Chinese-Americans (History of immagration, Paper Dragons, and stuff).
And what a lady said is very valid. I don't remember the exact words, but she said something akin to how those who immigrated decades earlier speak less english than some of the recent arrivals.
Immersion is key, but people tend to stick to people they have in common. And that also includes ethnicity and language (see San Francisco's Chinatown). The "person" the lady is talking about lived in San Francisco's Chinatown, and thus she never had to use english to get around. In her death bed, the only english words she knew how to say are "hello" and "good-bye", and that's from living decades of living in the US.
Don't know about the "ugly american" but that Chinese lady makes americans in foreign countries a totem to look up to.
As long as there are "ethnic" communities in the US, where english is not required, you won't have much english speaking people in those communities. (Puts flame retardant on) I guess the same can be said about the hispanics in hispanic communities.
If you have to use a language other than your first to survive, you'll learn it quick. But for some people in the US, english isn't essintial to survival.
And what a lady said is very valid. I don't remember the exact words, but she said something akin to how those who immigrated decades earlier speak less english than some of the recent arrivals.
Immersion is key, but people tend to stick to people they have in common. And that also includes ethnicity and language (see San Francisco's Chinatown). The "person" the lady is talking about lived in San Francisco's Chinatown, and thus she never had to use english to get around. In her death bed, the only english words she knew how to say are "hello" and "good-bye", and that's from living decades of living in the US.
Don't know about the "ugly american" but that Chinese lady makes americans in foreign countries a totem to look up to.
As long as there are "ethnic" communities in the US, where english is not required, you won't have much english speaking people in those communities. (Puts flame retardant on) I guess the same can be said about the hispanics in hispanic communities.
If you have to use a language other than your first to survive, you'll learn it quick. But for some people in the US, english isn't essintial to survival.
A good friend of mine moved to Quebec about five months ago and now speaks fluent French. Immersion is amazing, when she started talking to me in French, perfect pronunciation, accent, dialiect, grammar, etc, I was stupefied.
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