How long before the bubble bursts in China?

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cyclohexane

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Feb 12, 2005
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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/31/world/asia/31hainan.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

“People are coming with entire bags full of cash,” said Raymond Hau, general manager of the Sun Valley Golf Resort, which is building the 220 luxury villas. “I’ve seen this myself. A man had a bag and unzipped it. Boom. ‘Here’s the deposit,’ he said. ‘I want two apartments.’”

This is ridiculous, looks like they will have a housing bubble of their own coming up.
 

Hacp

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Jun 8, 2005
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Even if the bubble bursts, China's economy is not dependent on housing. Its backbone is still manufacturing. As long as it has a price advantage, no amount of burst will slow it down.
 

cubeless

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Sep 17, 2001
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the gov't can just shoot a couple of profiteers here and there to cool off the hysteria... but they'll certainly have some pricing corrections just like everyone else...
 
Dec 30, 2004
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I give it 1-2 years. This is why they don't want to have to revalue their yuan any vs ours, they want us to keep buy buy buying from them.
Hopefully the stronger yuan will start benefiting savers (of which there are many in China) more so they can start building wealth and be able to support consumption.

China has so many problems...
 

zephyrprime

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Feb 18, 2001
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Busts from credit expansions ending take a few years to happen from the onset of interest rate increases. So I expect it to take about 2 years. It could happen sooner if a sovereign wealth or commercial real estate crisis happens elsewhere in the world first.
 

blackangst1

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Feb 23, 2005
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I give it 1-2 years. This is why they don't want to have to revalue their yuan any vs ours, they want us to keep buy buy buying from them.
Hopefully the stronger yuan will start benefiting savers (of which there are many in China) more so they can start building wealth and be able to support consumption.

China has so many problems...

But the yuan is pegged to the USD...

I dont see a major collapse in China for the foreseeable future. Their economy is pretty solid right now.
 
Dec 30, 2004
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But the yuan is pegged to the USD...

I dont see a major collapse in China for the foreseeable future. Their economy is pretty solid right now.

duh...and we're pressuring them to revalue...probably going to return to pre-2008 value which was 5% annual appreciation vs. dollar.
 

brxndxn

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Apr 3, 2001
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I think the next year or two will be a China bubble burst.. Foreign investment will pull out at the first sign of problems.. and those problems will be enhanced by social unrest through an empowered middle class.

/just my prediction
 

shira

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Jan 12, 2005
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The existence of a a Chinese bubble is quite real, and it's not restricted to the real estate market. The Chinese government has plowed huge sums of money into the economy to essentially prop it up in the face of the global downturn, which greatly reduced Chinese exports. An Op-Ed piece last month by Washington Post columnist David Ignatius captured the essentials nicely. An excerpt:

My favorite analyst of bubble economies is David M. Smick, who predicted the U.S. financial mess in his book "The World Is Curved." He notes some worrying statistics: Until the global financial crisis, Chinese exports represented 43 percent of its gross domestic product. To make up for collapsing foreign demand once the recession hit in 2009, China launched a $1.8 trillion stimulus and lending program -- amounting to about 38 percent of its GDP. This money was supposed to reach consumers, but Smick estimates that 85 percent of the subsidized loans went to state-run companies and banks -- pumping the investment bubble even larger.

Not to worry, say China enthusiasts: A country with more than $2 trillion in foreign reserves doesn't have to worry about debt problems. But those reserves (mostly in dollars) aren't quite the safety net some imagine, because China couldn't liquidate them without hurting itself badly, as economist Michael Pettis argues in his blog, China Financial Markets.

China has a larger problem of questionable loans on its domestic balance sheet. Smick notes that $1.2 trillion of the Chinese stimulus package last year came in soft, subsidized loans. And Victor Shih, a professor at Northwestern University, has been gathering information about murky, off-books borrowing by local investment companies that he reckons could amount to as much as $1.7 trillion, or about 34 percent of China's GDP.

The most reassuring fact about China is that the country's leaders see the problem and are trying to put on the brakes, ever so gently. For a reminder of the dimensions of the overcapacity problem they're facing, consider that China has enough steel-making capacity to meet the demands of the United States, Russia, Japan and Europe combined.

For a country addicted to export-led growth, transitioning to a sustainable economy won't be easy. People who assume that an ever-expanding China will inexorably replace America as the world economic superpower should take a close look at the numbers.

Full Op-Ed piece:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/10/AR2010031002636.html
 
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Dec 30, 2004
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Do we really want the bubble in China to burst?

China is fubar'd no matter what at this point, because they have put all their eggs in the manufacturing basket, and whoops we're in a recession and don't want to buy buy buy anymore.
 
Dec 30, 2004
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So what caused the bubble in China?

any time you throw too much money around trying to stimulate demand, you get a bubble. Lots of money sloshing around means more people have it and are willing to bid up prices on assets. You can usually hold inflation in check, to a certain extent, only if your supply (ability to produce whatever is increasing in price) grows along with the demand.
If companies interpret all that demand as legitimate demand then they pay to build another factory and partly raise the prices on the widgets they sell, to pay for the factory, and partly make it up in volume. If this was bad growth in the economy, then when the economy contracts they're left holding a factory they don't need.
What China has been doing is stimulating to build even MORE factories....that they don't need--cause we're not buying nearly as much. That's why they've got a big problem on their hands-- and the country in general is very antagonistic to any critiques of their leaders' decisions, they interpret it as "anti-Chinese Americans are trying to keep China from being productive" when really our economists writing these reports ("Stop stimulating by building more factories!") are uninterested 3rd parties simply calling it like they see it. It doesn't help that their political structure thrives on sucking up to the guy in charge. This is an example of why you shouldn't ever have politicians with so much power-- everyone's afraid to tell them they're wrong.

However certain things (like assets-- homes in prime locations) have limited supply-- so people say "well I'm willing to pay whatever% of my paycheck to buy this house", and when you stimulate demand too much then there are too many people with paychecks willing to out-bid each other for the house, and so you get a run-up in prices.
Or you can do financial trickery like "well, home prices are going to keep going up, so we [bank] will sell it to you at less than the cost of the interest payment, and we'll just put the interest back onto the principle, but since home values are going to go up it's not a problem because you'll always be able to sell the house, oh and it's not a problem for us because we're packaging these mortgage loans together and selling them to the market as mortgage backed securities, so we don't have any incentive to actually verify the credit-worthiness of the borrower".
I don't think any of the financial stuff has been going on in China, just the over-stimulating to build extra supply, when the demand isn't even there for the supply [of manufacturing] that they have now.
 
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