How is this tax break a bad thing?

MaxDepth

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2001
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I would rather have the govt. have less of an operating budget, or go deeper in debt - for the short term - than for me to have less of my paycheck back.

Money magazine on-line has a very good article detailing the elements of the tax cut. Included is a tax savings calculator (estimated, of course).

As long as the economy and citizens are either unemployed, working for less or without a raise, I see no need in the govt. keeping all of our tax dollars. In lean times we chould pay less, in better times we should pay more. I've been told that this statement is a gross oversimplification of the matter, but why does it have to be complicated?

Is the arguement here not about tax relief but about who gets more of a break?
 

isaacmacdonald

Platinum Member
Jun 7, 2002
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where is the money coming from? It's being borrowed against the future. For what purpose? To stimulate the economy. Is this the most effective means of stimulus?

Probably not.
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
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less of your money for the gubberment to spend

isn't this a political topic? (Politics and News forum?)
 

Quixfire

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2001
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I want a 100% tax break, but that because I am a evil white europeon who makes his income by scaming the poor of this great nation.

That's right I found a need in my area and started a business to service this need and I became wealthy by most peoples standards.

100% risk should equal 100% reward.
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
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you are very evil Quixfire :evil:

i hope the commies get ahold of your money to give to some "unfortunate" poor people
 

I don't know about the rest of America, but if I got more money in my paycheck, it'd go right where most of my paycheck already goes: savings account. I don't want to spend my extra money only to have the country go deeper into debt because of another 'War on Terror' which we haven't finished nor have we won.

I save my money - stimulating the economy (according to GWB) means squandering your money away on material posessions. Not me.
 

Ameesh

Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: jumpr
I don't know about the rest of America, but if I got more money in my paycheck, it'd go right where most of my paycheck already goes: savings account. I don't want to spend my extra money only to have the country go deeper into debt because of another 'War on Terror' which we haven't finished nor have we won.

I save my money - stimulating the economy (according to GWB) means squandering your money away on material posessions. Not me.

many people think like you so the stimulus package really wont help much.
 

kranky

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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There is incredible waste in the federal budget, along with an ever-mushrooming list of entitlement programs that no one ever wants to cut. I wish both parties would admit that is true and work to address it. The sooner that happens, the sooner we can get spending under control.

But what typically happens is this:
Party 1: Program X is forecasted to grow another 7% next year. Let's cut that to a 3% increase instead. (Program X is federally-funded school lunches)
Party 2: Aaaah!! Party 1 wants to starve our kids! Evil!

I like the trend of cutting taxes and letting government adjust their spending accordingly. No society has ever taxed their way into prosperity, yet a lot of people continue to think that's going to work.
 

m2kewl

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2001
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Originally posted by: jumpr
I don't know about the rest of America, but if I got more money in my paycheck, it'd go right where most of my paycheck already goes: savings account. I don't want to spend my extra money only to have the country go deeper into debt because of another 'War on Terror' which we haven't finished nor have we won.

I save my money - stimulating the economy (according to GWB) means squandering your money away on material posessions. Not me.

same here.
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
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Originally posted by: kranky
... the sooner we can get spending under control.
...

why would any politician , in any party, want to get "spending under control"?

it is a conflict of interest, politicians gain power by spending more/having more programs etc


ps this is still a political thread in the off topic forum, i thought political thread belong in "Politics and News" forum
 

isaacmacdonald

Platinum Member
Jun 7, 2002
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If we want to stimulate more consumer spending, I think a low end cut would do that. Giving warren buffet an extra 100 million a year (as a result of decreased dividend taxes) will obviously not do that (as his last op-ed pointed out). There are a couple odd people out there who will live on nothing and save all they have, but the majority of people with low incomes would probably like to have a reliable car and perhaps a color tv ;).

I do think it's crazy that we're spending so much money on imperialism and now more on huge tax cuts as we go deaper into debt. With the rise of the euro, deficit spending becomes dangerous.

 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
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Originally posted by: Quixfire
I want a 100% tax break, but that because I am a evil white europeon who makes his income by scaming the poor of this great nation.

That's right I found a need in my area and started a business to service this need and I became wealthy by most peoples standards.

100% risk should equal 100% reward.



let everyone else pay for roads, schools, police.


I like your attitude and would like to subscribe to your newsletter




;)
 

Lucky

Lifer
Nov 26, 2000
13,126
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Giving warren buffet an extra 100 million a year (as a result of decreased dividend taxes) will obviously not do that (as his last op-ed pointed out).


Except for one small thing; Berkshire Hathaway does not pay dividends and never will.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
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Originally posted by: isaacmacdonald
If we want to stimulate more consumer spending, I think a low end cut would do that. Giving warren buffet an extra 100 million a year (as a result of decreased dividend taxes) will obviously not do that (as his last op-ed pointed out). There are a couple odd people out there who will live on nothing and save all they have, but the majority of people with low incomes would probably like to have a reliable car and perhaps a color tv ;).

I do think it's crazy that we're spending so much money on imperialism and now more on huge tax cuts as we go deaper into debt. With the rise of the euro, deficit spending becomes dangerous.

You know nothing about economics, do you?

 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
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Originally posted by: jumpr
I don't know about the rest of America, but if I got more money in my paycheck, it'd go right where most of my paycheck already goes: savings account. I don't want to spend my extra money only to have the country go deeper into debt because of another 'War on Terror' which we haven't finished nor have we won.

I save my money - stimulating the economy (according to GWB) means squandering your money away on material posessions. Not me.

And what do you think the bank does with the money you put into your savings account? It just sits in a little pot until you come calling? No, they lend it out to people and businesses, thus stimulating the economy.

 

ScoobMaster

Platinum Member
Jan 17, 2001
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Why do government officials think it is better for the economy if they take more of your money to use/spend than to let you keep it to use/spend? Why is money put to "better use" in the hands of government than in the hands of the citizens who worked for and earned it?

two words:

INCOME REDISTRIBUTION

A.K.A. using force to take from the "haves" and giving some to the "have-nots"
A.K.A. vote-buying scheme (since the "have-nots outnumber the "haves")

 

DT4K

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2002
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Originally posted by: isaacmacdonald
If we want to stimulate more consumer spending, I think a low end cut would do that. Giving warren buffet an extra 100 million a year (as a result of decreased dividend taxes) will obviously not do that (as his last op-ed pointed out). There are a couple odd people out there who will live on nothing and save all they have, but the majority of people with low incomes would probably like to have a reliable car and perhaps a color tv ;).

I do think it's crazy that we're spending so much money on imperialism and now more on huge tax cuts as we go deaper into debt. With the rise of the euro, deficit spending becomes dangerous.

How exactly would you have a "low end" tax cut when the low end doesn't pay taxes?

The tax cut will help everyone who pays taxes. It will help the wealthy the most because they are the ones who pay the most.

How many people do you think are gainfully employed because wealthy people like Warren Buffet and others invested in their companies?
That is the point of a stimulus tax cut. It not only puts more money in the hands of middle class people who may go out and buy a new car, but it also puts more money in the hands of the wealthy. The wealthy then invest more money in businesses. Then those businesses have more capital to do things like building new factories, hiring more people, and expanding and improving their operations. This creates more jobs, which stimulates the economy and helps everyone.

Will the tax cut be enough to make much of a difference?
Maybe and maybe not.

 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
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Originally posted by: ScoobMaster

A.K.A. vote-buying scheme (since the "have-nots outnumber the "haves")

this same thing was done in the roman republic, link
Patronage
Much of Roman society centers on the concept of "patronage", the informal but binding set of duties and rights between a patron and his clients. In Rome everyone is a client to one or more patrons, who in turn are clients to higher ranking patrons, in a chain reaching up to the emperor, the ultimate patron.

The patronage system is a combination of an old boy's network, the Sicilian mafia, feudalism, and the "machine politics" of some 19th century American cities. Patrons grant favors to their clients such as loans, gifts, legal representation, and protection. In return the clients provide favors of their own, political support, and social deference. Some clients were entirely supported financially by their patrons, and were naturally more loyal to their patrons than to the government.
our system is like that, the politicians do things to gain favor with the majority who then return the favor with blind support
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
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BTW, any of you crying over this tax break can just send me your extra dollars. PM me and I will send you my address. I would like payments in intervals equal to your paychecks. Thanks.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,099
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Here are my thoughts on this tax cut.
1) Dividend cut. This will in reality only help those who are already millionaires. Warren Buffet will get 0.02% of the entire tax cut. What percent will Bill Gates get? Compile a list of the top 100 richest American's and they will get the vast majority of this tax cut. So esentially we will be pooring $100 billion or so into the hands of a very few of the world's richest people. What will they do with the money? Swiss bank accounts maybe, buy some more stocks, etc. They are already spending as much as they want, so this chunk will not increase spending, so this chunk will not stimulate the economy. I don't see the point of this part of the tax cut.
2) Individual rate cuts. This would be a nice thing to see for each individual. However a cut from 36% to 35% isn't very significant. This will partially stimulate the economy - but as others have said they might put part of that into savings instead.
3) Increase in standard deduction for married couples. I have mixed feelings on this issue. A couple living on $50,000 per year is a lot wealthier than two individuals making $25,000 each (since the couple only has one rent payment and gets lower prices on other things like insurance). So since I feel we should tax wealth (note this is different from taxing income) in principle I agree with the marriage penalty. But I can see how this will help some couples and could stimulate the economy slightly.
4) Moving the child credit to now instead of the future. Why on Earth did Bush want this pushed back so far into the future in his inital tax cut? It should have been active last year. At least he is making up for his mistake.

There are problems with tax cuts in general though.
1) If you cut taxes when in debt, this is basically a loan. We will have to pay for it with higher taxes in the future - with interest. So in the long run, cutting taxes means we must pay more taxes. I'd rather pay them now to have a lot lower taxes in the future. But most people cannot look that far into the future. Or they make unrealistic assumptions hoping to make a model showing that you can cut taxes now so that the economy is so stimulated that you can keep them cut. Unfortunately those models have never worked.
2) The other way to cut taxes without a loan is to cut spending. Suppose to pay for this tax cut, the government cut spending by $350 billion. Basically the government is unaffected - $350 billion less tax offsets $350 billion less spending. But how is the economy affected. That $350 billion in spending cuts means a lot of people depending on government jobs must be fired. If the country spends all that $350 billion, then these fired people can switch jobs and everything is the same. But what if half of that $350 billion is saved instead of spent (which is likely since most will go to the richest of the rich)? That means the government spends $350 billion less, and America spends $175 billion more. Net effect is a $175 billion LOSS to the economy. Thus all tax cuts paid for by cutting spending will HURT the economy.

So do the benefits outweigh the problems? In my opinion this tax cut as it is done has problems that outweigh the benefits.

Here are my suggestions to solve the same problems:
1) Bush wants to end the double taxation of dividends and stimulate the economy. But giving money to Warren Buffet won't stimulate the economy. He'll just pocket the savings. Instead eliminate the corporate tax on all money given out in dividends. That way the double taxation is ended, and the businesses have more money which a lot will be spent on hiring employees. That will work a lot better than the current plan at meeting Bush's goals.
2) Want to elimiate the marriage penalty? That is fine. Increase the married deduction and reduce the individual deduction in a way that the government still collects the same amount of taxes. Thus for free you ended the marriage penalty.
3) I'd bump the child credit even more than what Bush wants. That gives money to those who are most likely to spend it (thus stimulating the economy the most).
4) Cut the individual tax levels more than 1 or 2 percent instead of reducing the dividend tax.
 

Hey, I'm not against the tax cut - lower taxes are great for everyone. I just disagree that this is the right time for a cut! After two 'foggy' wars against 'terror' why is our president FURTHER ERASING ANY TRACE OF THE TRILLION-DOLLAR SURPLUS HE WAS GIVEN AT THE START OF HIS TERM?

Sure, he inherited a recession - but two wars and a nominal tax cut last year haven't helped much...why should this new one help any more? I like money in my pocket, but I'd be happier if our government could get into shape - it'd make me feel a lot better about the economy than an extra $400 or so for me.

I thought democrats were the champions of deficit spending? I think Bush would be the type to frequent the Hot Deals forum based on his spending patterns.
 

MaxDepth

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2001
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But see, that's a part of what I am questioning. Why did we have a surplus? I was basically paying the govt. more money than they could spend that year. So instead of giving it back to me, they wanted to save it to pay for more programs and to take awy some of the national debt.

I am fine with a portion of my money going to the debt. But don't save it so that you can find other things to spend it on. I have to budget my finances very, very carefully in the last year (collecting all my pennies to buy weekly groceries). If I could do it, budgeting I mean, with my meager finances, then our government should do the same.

If it meant I couldn't go out to the bars with my friend or do without new clothes then that was the choice I made. With that estimated $350 dollars extra back next year in my refund, I expect to spend that on new computer parts and maybe a good dinner out on a date. Why? Because in the end it IS my money.