How is the Federal Constitution better than AoC?

[Anarchist420]

Try to not say everything, as there has to be something about the Articles of Confederation you like better.

However, I'm going to be a bit of a hypocrite and say there is nothing I like about the Federal Constitution more. Even though the Federal Constitution says "no State shall accept anything but gold or silver coin in payment of debts", that didn't apply to the Federal government because of the supremacy clause (which says that all federal laws are supreme over the States, rather than just saying "this Constitution shall be invioably observed by every State").

That said, I've thought it through and there is no way in which the Federal Constitution is greater than or even equal to the Articles of Confederation in my opinion.

 

[feralkid]

AoC strictly forbids inserting vodka soaked tampons; could have prevented this latest scourge of youth.

 

[Slick5150]

I'm willing to assume you have never actually read the Articles of Confederation or know anything about why they failed. There was a reason they scrapped them and held a new continental congress you know.

 

[Anarchist420]

I'm willing to assume you have never actually read the Articles of Confederation or know anything about why they failed. There was a reason they scrapped them and held a new continental congress you know.

I absolutely have read the Articles of Confederation. They didn't fail, mercantile interests and the military elite pushed for their repeal.

 

[HumblePie]

Age of Conan sucks, get over it.

 

[soundforbjt]

Most people don't want to live in the 18th century.

 

[fskimospy]

I absolutely have read the Articles of Confederation. They didn't fail, mercantile interests and the military elite pushed for their repeal.

They failed, as has every single confederation throughout history by the way.

 

[Thump553]

Why do you keep bringing up this really stupid idea? The USA was well on the way to failure under the Articles of Confederation-if they stayed in place we'd be colonies of one or more European powers at this point. Almostly certainly slavery would still be in full force.

 

[Jaepheth]

It survived.

[/Darwinism]
[/thread]

 

[momeNt]

They failed, as has every single confederation throughout history by the way.

Have you read the title to zerohedge's website (from movie fight club originally) btw?


On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

Only the Nazis were realistic in this viewpoint by just wishing a 1000 year Reich, knowing that failure is inevitable.

 

[fskimospy]

Have you read the title to zerohedge's website (from movie fight club originally) btw?


On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

Only the Nazis were realistic in this viewpoint by just wishing a 1000 year Reich, knowing that failure is inevitable.

And yet the world is currently home to a large number of federal states, while the number of true confederations that exist is exactly zero. Just because every human eventually dies doesn't mean that we can't state that we out performed the extinct neanderthals.

 

[ichy]

Christ, please stop feeding the troll. We all learned in elementary school history why the Articles of Confederation didn't work.

 

[momeNt]

And yet the world is currently home to a large number of federal states, while the number of true confederations that exist is exactly zero. Just because every human eventually dies doesn't mean that we can't state that we out performed the extinct neanderthals.

Longevity and frequency does not a best form of government make.

 

[CrackRabbit]

Age of Conan sucks, get over it.

It could be worse, there is always Final Fantasy XIV.

 

[fskimospy]

Longevity and frequency does not a best form of government make.

But it does provide evidence as to which one is likely better. Oh wait, I forgot you don't believe in evidence.

 

[Anarchist420]

And yet the world is currently home to a large number of federal states, while the number of true confederations that exist is exactly zero. Just because every human eventually dies doesn't mean that we can't state that we out performed the extinct neanderthals.

But Federations stay in power because they use torce. However, that's not ethical.

The Federal Constitution probably isn't eternal, as it could explode from debt or the military getting too poweful or centralized plutocracy, while Confederal Unions can't.

I also think it's merely coincidental that the US Federal Constitution has lasted so long (one could even argue that it died in 1868 when the 14th amendment was added illegally). If it's not coincidental, then it's because the U.S. Federal constitution made a government too strong The Weimar Federal Republic failed and the EU (which has far more power than the Articles of COnfederation allowed the united States Assembled) is having trouble and is about to split. Super-centralized states almost always fail, like USSR and Nazi Germany.

The Articles of Confederation was not a failed state and never could be.

 

[Anarchist420]

But it does provide evidence as to which one is likely better. Oh wait, I forgot you don't believe in evidence.

Better is subjective. "Popular" would fit better. The only reason it's more popular is because of myths the state spreads into the minds of many anyway.

 

[fskimospy]

Better is subjective. "Popular" would fit better. The only reason it's more popular is because of myths the state spreads into the minds of many anyway.

If better is subjective, then why did you ask the question to begin with? Idiot.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

I bet anarchist has wet dreams about going back in time and stopping the Constitutional Convention.

 

[momeNt]

But it does provide evidence as to which one is likely better. Oh wait, I forgot you don't believe in evidence.

Bring me some Roman emperors then, barbarians are gone so there is nothing to bring about their failure this time.

Wonder which general on their way back from Iraq or Afghanistan is going to cross the Rubicon.

 

[fskimospy]

Bring me some Roman emperors then, barbarians are gone so there is nothing to bring about their failure this time.

Wonder which general on their way back from Iraq or Afghanistan is going to cross the Rubicon.

Oh jesus. Are you being serious? Empires such as Rome do not exist anymore, they were found to be unsustainable. Also, if you have to go back 2,000 years for an example, you need a better example.

In the modern era a large number of federal and confederal states have come into being. Each and every one of the confederations has failed, without exception. Large numbers of federal states have outlasted them, and continue to exist in significant prosperity. This is evidence of federalism working better.

 

[momeNt]

Oh jesus. Are you being serious? Empires such as Rome do not exist anymore, they were found to be unsustainable. Also, if you have to go back 2,000 years for an example, you need a better example.

In the modern era a large number of federal and confederal states have come into being. Each and every one of the confederations has failed, without exception. Large numbers of federal states have outlasted them, and continue to exist in significant prosperity. This is evidence of federalism working better.

Excellent point, growth of central governing agencies cannot be controlled like the AoC set out to do and will always result in a federation or empire.

So this "evidence of federalism working better" really is simply that the growth of central government cannot be checked or kept small, it's the natural progression of power.

This thesis can be confirmed empirically if the following two confederations that you conveniently left out of your list of ZERO, abandon their confederation and form federations.

Canada - Confederation
Switzerland - (aka Swiss Confederation)

 

[fskimospy]

Excellent point, growth of central governing agencies cannot be controlled like the AoC set out to do and will always result in a federation or empire.

So this "evidence of federalism working better" really is simply that the growth of central government cannot be checked or kept small, it's the natural progression of power.

This thesis can be confirmed empirically if the following two confederations that you conveniently left out of your list of ZERO, abandon their confederation and form federations.

Canada - Confederation
Switzerland - (aka Swiss Confederation)

Despite their choice of names, neither Canada nor Switzerland are actually confederations.

Additionally, there have been a number of confederations that simply split apart into individual states as opposed to being subsumed into a federal state. This would in fact be a net decrease in centralized government between the states involved, and it would directly contradict your thesis.

Much more likely is that confederations are inherently weak and unstable, providing the worst elements of unwanted outside intrusion with a paralysis of collective action that makes such an institution unsustainable.

 

[momeNt]

Despite their choice of names, neither Canada nor Switzerland are actually confederations.

Additionally, there have been a number of confederations that simply split apart into individual states as opposed to being subsumed into a federal state. This would in fact be a net decrease in centralized government between the states involved, and it would directly contradict your thesis.

Much more likely is that confederations are inherently weak and unstable, providing the worst elements of unwanted outside intrusion with a paralysis of collective action that makes such an institution unsustainable.

Moving the goalposts i see.

 

[fskimospy]

Moving the goalposts i see.

Please tell me what goalposts you think I am moving.