How is Obama a socialist?

[RichardE]

Seems to be a pretty prevalent talking point, yet no one has actually explained how his policies are socialist in nature in respect to what socialist is, as well as in respect to how McCain is not making socialist decisions as well.


Anyone care to actually explain this point? Or did the GOP talking point bulletin not explain that in depth?

 

[miketheidiot]

its for stupid people to latch on to.

 

[jpeyton]

He's not, according to McCain.

 

[alien42]

he isn't

 

[Budmantom]

How is Obama a socialist?

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

That sounds like Obama doesn't it?

 

[Craig234]

As I explained in another post, it's trying to take advantage of the conditioning of many voters against the word 'socialist' by making an absurd leap from a phrase Obama used, in explaining his tax policy, the same argument McCain has used in the past, to try to say Obama is a socialist. Many voters are pre-oriented to say any democrats is a 'socialist' and opppose them, after decades of conditioning by Republican marketing.

Bernie Saunders describes himself as a 'Democratic Socialist', the only such person in Congress as far as I'm aware. The funny thing is, Saunders has IMO excellent views on the issues, and I don't see any rebuttal to them from the right - only the reactionary disagreement. So even if Obama *were* a 'democratic socialist', it doesn't mean he'd be wrong - but he's not.

In fact, our society is filled with things that can be called 'socialist', and if you're the people who dominate the media, you get to cherry pick which ones - like an out of context Obama quote - you use to call someone socialist.

It's a little like how the Wall Street Journal, desperate to make the case that McCain might win, made the argument the candidate behind in the polls usually makes, by printing a Karl Rove column attacking polls, pointing out how they've been wrong before. But since they cheery pick, the Rove column doesn't mention the following bit of Rovian history in 2006, courtesy of Glenn Greenwald in Salon:

SIEGEL: We are in the home stretch though and many would consider you on the optimistic end of realism about...

ROVE: Not that you would be exhibiting a bias or anything like that, you're just making a comment, right?

SIEGEL: I'm looking at all the same polls that you are looking at.

ROVE: No, you are not, no you're not, no you're not, you're not. . . . Like the poll today that showing Corker's ahead in Tennessee or the poll showing Allen is pulling away in the Virginia Senate race. . . .

I'm looking at all of these Robert and adding them up. I add up to a Republican Senate and Republican House. You may end up with a different math but you are entitled to your math and I'm entitled to THE math.

SIEGEL: I don't know if we're entitled to a different math but your...

ROVE: I said THE math.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Budmantom
How is Obama a socialist?

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

That sounds like Obama doesn't it?

It also sounds like McCain.
It also sounds like America.
It also sounds like the only sensible policy.

Are you in favor of the old societies where most live in impoverished serfdom? Where capital is dominated by the few rich, unavailable for opportunity for most people to do more than slave?

You think there's maybe a reason 'pure capitalism' exists nowhere, but where it's come closest - in Friedman experiments like Pinochet's Chile - it's been a disaster?

Do you have any clue on the history of the poverty in America and the role of the progressive (Teddy Roosevelt) and New Deal (Franklin Roosevelt) eras in improving it?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Budmantom
How is Obama a socialist?

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

That sounds like Obama doesn't it?

Hint for Budmantom: If you're trying to lie through omission and distort a source, don't make it as obvious a source as Wikipedia.

Here is the paragraph directly before Budmantom's cut and paste job. Now, together... does this sound like Obama?

Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society. Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution which represents the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Budmantom
How is Obama a socialist?

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

That sounds like Obama doesn't it?

It also sounds like McCain.
It also sounds like AMerica.
It also sounds like the only sensible policy.

Are you in favor of the old societies where most live in impoverished serfdom?

I certainly hope you never procreate. America was founded around principles that are OPPOSITE socialism. I hate it when people want to turn our great country into crap like that. In socialism, it doesn't matter how hard you work or how smart you are, you will get the same as your neighbor even if he sits around all day jerking off.

I guess we know which one you are...

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Budmantom
How is Obama a socialist?

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

That sounds like Obama doesn't it?

It also sounds like McCain.
It also sounds like AMerica.
It also sounds like the only sensible policy.

Are you in favor of the old societies where most live in impoverished serfdom?

I'm glad that we agree that Obama socialist.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Budmantom
How is Obama a socialist?

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

That sounds like Obama doesn't it?

Hint for Budmantom: If you're trying to lie through omission and distort a source, don't make it as obvious a source as Wikipedia.

Here is the paragraph directly before Budmantom's cut and paste job. Now, together... does this sound like Obama?

Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society. Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution which represents the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

One thing Marx missed was how effectively the rich would be able to fight that war and condition entire societies against 'class warfare', even while they waged it themselves.

Warren Buffet said there is a class war, and his class is winning. The fact that since the rich got their spokesman Reagan in office, the bottom 80% of Americans have stopped receiving a proportional share of the gains in the economy they are working in, and have gotten zero after inflation while the top 0.01% are up over 500%, shows what's going on.

 

[retrospooty]

Originally posted by: Budmantom
How is Obama a socialist?

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

That sounds like Obama doesn't it?

Not all all my dimwitted friend. All Obama is doing is eliminating the Bush tax cuts on the rich, and going back to the way we were under Clinton. Remember that? prosperity?

removing a tax cut doesn't not equal socialism... Socialism is just a scare tactic by a desperate campaign that has no clear message of thier own, so attacking the other side with baseless lies is all they have.


Guess what, he's not a muslim, or a terrorist, or a friend to terrorists.

[/ tomcruise rant] He is a loyal patriot, and a senator of the united states of america you son of a bitch... And your just plain wrong.

 

[sandorski]

WTF? You want McCain to lose?? Stop questioning the Talking Points!!

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: XZeroII

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Budmantom
How is Obama a socialist?

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

That sounds like Obama doesn't it?

It also sounds like McCain.
It also sounds like AMerica.
It also sounds like the only sensible policy.

Are you in favor of the old societies where most live in impoverished serfdom?

I certainly hope you never procreate. America was founded around principles that are OPPOSITE socialism. I hate it when people want to turn our great country into crap like that. In socialism, it doesn't matter how hard you work or how smart you are, you will get the same as your neighbor even if he sits around all day jerking off.

I guess we know which one you are...

You're completely wrong, and only serve my point about the effective propagandizing that's happened.

That is *not* what socialism is, what you say, not at all.

Before we even talk about it, we have to note that there are no 'firm definitions' at the policy level on any ism. Capitalism, Socialism, Libertarianism all have disagreements.

But here's a typical proposal from a self-described socialist leader: a business owner can only make up to five times as much as the average worker.

If the average worker makes $50,000 and by offering more to be a good CEO, you can make $250K, are you saying that's not an incentive?

As I recall, even in periods of our peak 'capitalism', the ratio has tended to be maybe 20 or 25 times as much. In recent years, because of *corruption*, not 'earning it', CEO's in the US (not the rest of the world, where it's remained at similar levels) have turned that into hundreds of times as much, I recall seeing 400-1 ratios mentioned.

Socialism as I understand it understands and supports rewarding productivity - just not to the extreme that an unregulated corrupt system allows, and that is better for most people.

In our 'liberal era', say WWII-LBJ, we had a thriving middle class and a thriving economy - and no shortage of 'rich people', just with less concentration of wealth than now (or just preceding the great depression, when concentration of wealth was a factor in the economy's problems, and the last time the levels were at current rates).

You display that you are conditioned on the word socialism, not informed. You are armed only with a straw man argument, and you should learn a little about its definition and its flavors. Socialists led the fight in the US for the 40 hour work week, for example, the idea that the owners should not be able to pressure workers into 60 hour work weeks while unemployment was high, simply because it increased their profits to do so and keep a large supply of people ready to replace them. Was that such a bad idea?

Socialists were leaders in the fight for the woman's right to vote as well. Against that?

Edit: but then again your first insult shows you are an idiot, so this post is for others.

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Budmantom
How is Obama a socialist?

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

That sounds like Obama doesn't it?

Not all all my dimwitted friend. All Obama is doing is eliminating the Bush tax cuts on the rich, and going back to the way we were under Clinton. Remember that? prosperity?

removing a tax cut doesn't not equal socialism... Socialism is just a scare tactic by a desperate campaign that has no clear message of thier own, so attacking the other side with baseless lies is all they have.


Guess what, he's not a muslim, or a terrorist, or a friend to terrorists.

[/ tomcruise rant] He is a loyal patriot, and a senator of the united states of america you son of a bitch... And your just plain wrong.

So do you think he will increase tax on people making $250, 200, 150 or 42k?

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Budmantom
How is Obama a socialist?

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

That sounds like Obama doesn't it?

Not all all my dimwitted friend. All Obama is doing is eliminating the Bush tax cuts on the rich, and going back to the way we were under Clinton. Remember that? prosperity?

removing a tax cut doesn't not equal socialism... Socialism is just a scare tactic by a desperate campaign that has no clear message of thier own, so attacking the other side with baseless lies is all they have.


Guess what, he's not a muslim, or a terrorist, or a friend to terrorists.

[/ tomcruise rant] He is a loyal patriot, and a senator of the united states of america you son of a bitch... And your just plain wrong.

So do you think he will increase tax on people making $250, 200, 150 or 42k?

Most likely, what he said: $250K (families) and $200K (singles).

I'd support, policy-wise, dipping a bit deeper (not down to 42K), but suspect he won't do so.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Budmantom
How is Obama a socialist?

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

That sounds like Obama doesn't it?

Hint for Budmantom: If you're trying to lie through omission and distort a source, don't make it as obvious a source as Wikipedia.

Here is the paragraph directly before Budmantom's cut and paste job. Now, together... does this sound like Obama?

Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society. Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution which represents the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

high corporate tax rates = effective collective ownership. 40% corporate tax rate = govt is entitled to 40% of profits, 60% to shareholders. I'd say that sounds like collective ownership, couple that in with business regulations you get the administration part.

And now with Obama we are moving towards lower tax rates for the lower 95%, and higher tax rates for the upper 5%. Again, with negative tax payments, i.e. welfare checks, and a very progressive tax rate, you are one step closer to an egalitarian society.

 

[Vic]

He's not. It's just yet another meriitless character attack from the Pubs designed to distract people from their own crappy candidate. They're desperate and are willing to tell any lie at this point, honor, truth, morality, and even their own ideology be damned.

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Budmantom
How is Obama a socialist?

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

That sounds like Obama doesn't it?

Hint for Budmantom: If you're trying to lie through omission and distort a source, don't make it as obvious a source as Wikipedia.

Here is the paragraph directly before Budmantom's cut and paste job. Now, together... does this sound like Obama?

Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society. Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution which represents the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

You must walk before you run, he is taking steps in that direction... don't forget the Democratic party was talking about nationalizing the oil companies, "socialized" health care, socialized retirement accounts...

 

[alien42]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Budmantom
How is Obama a socialist?

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

That sounds like Obama doesn't it?

Not all all my dimwitted friend. All Obama is doing is eliminating the Bush tax cuts on the rich, and going back to the way we were under Clinton. Remember that? prosperity?

removing a tax cut doesn't not equal socialism... Socialism is just a scare tactic by a desperate campaign that has no clear message of thier own, so attacking the other side with baseless lies is all they have.


Guess what, he's not a muslim, or a terrorist, or a friend to terrorists.

[/ tomcruise rant] He is a loyal patriot, and a senator of the united states of america you son of a bitch... And your just plain wrong.

So do you think he will increase tax on people making $250, 200, 150 or 42k?

Craig234 clearly explained the $250k and $200k numbers and the $42k number is BS. you can not find a single example of Obama voting to raise taxes on those making $42k or more because it never happened.

 

[Alistar7]

Henry Ford established the 40 hour work week.

In our "liberal" era we also saw the currency supply only raised 150%, since being taken off the gold standard it has risen 2200%. That killed the middle class, our standard of living, the value of our dollar, the ability of one income to provide for a family, and even played a role in this recent economic crisis.

The isane amount of debt our government has plunged us in since Reagan is our biggest public issue, our private debt load is just as problematic.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Hint for Budmantom: If you're trying to lie through omission and distort a source, don't make it as obvious a source as Wikipedia.

Here is the paragraph directly before Budmantom's cut and paste job. Now, together... does this sound like Obama?

Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society. Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution which represents the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

high corporate tax rates = effective collective ownership. 40% corporate tax rate = govt is entitled to 40% of profits, 60% to shareholders. I'd say that sounds like collective ownership, couple that in with business regulations you get the administration part.

And now with Obama we are moving towards lower tax rates for the lower 95%, and higher tax rates for the upper 5%. Again, with negative tax payments, i.e. welfare checks, and a very progressive tax rate, you are one step closer to an egalitarian society.

First of all no, 40% tax rates do not equal collective ownership. That is the tax rate in many states now, and only a fool would argue that it was equal to collective ownership.

You are attempting to argue that at this moment the most capitalistic country in the 1st world (if not the whole world) is socialist. This means that your definition is either wrong, or so overly broad as to be meaningless. (I'll let you decide) Note: This doesn't take into account the fact that there are so many exemptions and loopholes in the US system that in reality we have one of the lowest corporate tax rates on the planet... but hey, keep trying!

 

[Alistar7]

What will businesses do when Obama raises their taxes and forces them to cover more of their employees medical coverage cost?

 

[TheSlamma]

He's not.. next?

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Budmantom
How is Obama a socialist?

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

That sounds like Obama doesn't it?

Not all all my dimwitted friend. All Obama is doing is eliminating the Bush tax cuts on the rich, and going back to the way we were under Clinton. Remember that? prosperity?

removing a tax cut doesn't not equal socialism... Socialism is just a scare tactic by a desperate campaign that has no clear message of thier own, so attacking the other side with baseless lies is all they have.


Guess what, he's not a muslim, or a terrorist, or a friend to terrorists.

[/ tomcruise rant] He is a loyal patriot, and a senator of the united states of america you son of a bitch... And your just plain wrong.

So do you think he will increase tax on people making $250, 200, 150 or 42k?

Most likely, what he said: $250K (families) and $200K (singles).

I'd support, policy-wise, dipping a bit deeper (not down to 42K), but suspect he won't do so.

What about Biden and the $150k?