How Germany builds 2x as many cars as U.S. while paying 2x the salaries

[Pariah]

How could you bring yourself to click the submit button after posting something so nonsensical and stupid. German cars breaking more often than American?

The 80's called, they want their opinion back. Minus Porsche, the major German manufacturers have taken a beating for years in the quality department. Volkswagen in particular has ranked among the bottom for quite a while. Mercedes was really struggling in the court of public opinion for a while, but seems to be getting their act back together again in recent years.

 

[kornphlake]

Even if the article is correct it means Germany is doing something wrong, in any manufacturing system costs should go down as production volumes go up. If it is true that Germans have to pay 2x as much to produce 2x as many cars it means German manufacturing is horribly inefficient, which I don't believe to be the case.

 

[Mike Gayner]

Even if the article is correct it means Germany is doing something wrong, in any manufacturing system costs should go down as production volumes go up. If it is true that Germans have to pay 2x as much to produce 2x as many cars it means German manufacturing is horribly inefficient, which I don't believe to be the case.

You're failing to take into account productivity, and you're only looking at the per-worker pay not the per-vehicle cost. Don't leave school kids.

 

[kornphlake]

I guess you could look at it that way, but it's very different than the way we manufacture products in the west. The goal of western manufacturing is to reduce the costs, typically through automation, poke-a-yoke, etc, more often than not manufacturers strive to make processes robust such that they can hire less skilled workers at lower wages and get higher throughput without sacrificing quality. What I read is that Germans are paying top dollar for the best workers and producing more cars, that's great, but any country can do that not just the Germans, it's old world thinking. Yeah there is more to product cost than direct labor, but typically you don't see high labor direct labor cost and low total cost, if the article read German factories produce 2x the product with 1/2 the workforce I may be impressed.

 

[Mike Gayner]

I guess you could look at it that way, but it's very different than the way we manufacture products in the west.

Germany's not part of "the west" any more?

 

[dud]

German Cars > American Cars

And (of course) British cars are better than them all ...

 

[SparkyJJO]

How could you bring yourself to click the submit button after posting something so nonsensical and stupid. German cars breaking more often than American?

Comparing my American car to my coworker's German car, that's how

Also, you must have totally missed the - I wasn't being serious. No need to be so ready to jump down someone's throat and name call. Grow up, and have a nice day ^_^

 

[kornphlake]

Germany's not part of "the west" any more?

I think you're getting caught up in what I say rather than the context I'm saying it in. Germany is a western civilization, they do practice modern manufacturing and it's very suspicious that they would or could pay workers 2x as much and remain competitive in the global market. The claim that German auto makers pay more and produce more is either untrue or is stretching the truth, if it were true the conclusion would be that Germany has abandoned first world manufacturing practices which would also be untrue or stretching the truth.

 

[Arkaign]

Comparing my American car to my coworker's German car, that's how

Also, you must have totally missed the - I wasn't being serious. No need to be so ready to jump down someone's throat and name call. Grow up, and have a nice day ^_^

And this is why making blanket statements about entire regions is astronomically ridiculous.

"German cars >> American cars" is patently idiotic.

You really have to go brand by brand, model by model, year by year, and configuration by configuration to get close to the truth.

For example, Dodge Avenger vs. Mini Cooper (BMW basically). The Avenger is a pile of shit that probably won't see 200k, and is going to have more trouble than your average competitor.

Now flip side :

Ford Fusion vs. VW Passat. The Passat has drastically diminished in quality, and will almost certainly cost more to keep running than the Fusion.

And then you get to the somewhat intangible aspect that the vast majority of buyers of Audi/BMW/Mercedes midrange and higher models don't give half a shit that the car may need incredibly expensive repairs around the 100k-200k range to keep on the road. Why? Because they simply dispose of the vehicle after a year or two anyway. It's why you find 5 year old loaded 7-series that cost $100k+ new for a tiny fraction of that cost on the used market. The target buyer simply has no intention of keeping the vehicle longer than a good pair of shoes, so long term reliaiblity and affordable maintenance is not a focus of the manufacturer. Hilariously, this seems to be lost on many of the second hand buyers. Nothing more predictable than someone buying that 'sweet' used Audi S4, at the very edge of their ability to buy it to begin with, only to be deluged with $600+ brake jobs, sensors that cost 3x what they're used to, and having heaps of little expensive problems that go ignored due to the expense until something truly expensive breaks.

I'm not saying that they're even bad cars, for their intended purposes they're excellent.

As others have noted, the article is idiotic, and the comparison is apples/oranges all the way. But if you try to say that "American cars >> German cars or German cars >> American cars" as a blanket statement, you are an idiot. I'm sorry, but that's just the truth.

Are we now in to Necro threads or have you been in a coma...?

AT Moderator
Bartman39

 

[JulesMaximus]

And they break 2x as much

OK maybe not quite, but my coworker is always fixing his VW.

Your coworker bought the most unreliable German car made.

 

[Arkaign]

Your coworker bought the most unreliable German car made.

Yep. And Porsche on the other hand is quite reliable overall. That's why these blanket comparisons are so bad.

VW is a lot less reliable overall compared to Ford or GM. Hell I've seen so many 500k+ mile original drivetrain pickups that I'm no longer surprised to see them. But on the flip side, Dodge/Chrysler car vs. Porsche? It's almost a guarantee that the Porsche will outlast them, being more reliable all the while.

 

[Throckmorton]

I don't know about Audi/VW, but so far in my experience BMW parts are about as cheap as American parts and repairs are easier/quicker than with any FWD car... and unless you're a mechanic yourself the labor is usually the biggest cost. For a car with over 100k miles I can't think of any reason to get some lame automatic-only FWD American blandmobile.

 

[Murloc]

It's weird because Germans cars are considered (and actually are) the most reliable here. The same can't be said for italian etc. cars.

Are you sure that it's not also because north american models are not made in Europe so the quality might be different?
Or maybe it's the expectations of customers.
Few american cars are sold here because even the sedans are just huge ugly boats with wheels or houses on wheels to the european consumer's eye.
In my canton it's normal to change one's car after 5-10 years but that's a local cultural fact. I see lots of old german swiss german cars. Generally, newer cars break faster.
Also most cars here are manuals, only recently automatics have been spreading a bit more. In the US only the automatics are sold I guess, so that might influence reliability too since automatic cars need pricey repairs and have a higher probability of problems.

Anyway the whole thing about wages is stupid because it's difficult to take into account the cost of living, taxes, social security etc.
Besides the fact that Eastern Europe is where low value added stuff happens nowadays. In any western country it's impossible to pay people as low as the poorest people are paid in the US, the wealth spread is too low, so it just moved east.

 

[Arkaign]

I don't know about Audi/VW, but so far in my experience BMW parts are about as cheap as American parts and repairs are easier/quicker than with any FWD car... and unless you're a mechanic yourself the labor is usually the biggest cost. For a car with over 100k miles I can't think of any reason to get some lame automatic-only FWD American blandmobile.

Eh? I love me some BMW, but the prices definitely aren't comparable, nor should they be honestly.

Let's take a 2006 325i vs. 2006 Fusion.

O2 Sensor

$21.79 Ford, $71.79 BMW

Brake caliper

$36.79 Ford, $70.79 BMW

Thermostat

$32.79 Ford, $75.79 BMW

Valve Cover Gasket

$12.75 Ford, $33.79 BMW

Those are the last four things I've replaced on a car, so just checked those prices on both. It adds up. I also prefer working on RWD, but some BMWs are a pita. Dealing with Vanos seals is an extra time consuming step for example, in most vehicles one doesn't have to worry about new seals for a pretty long time unless something goes wrong.

 

[Arkaign]

It's weird because Germans cars are considered (and actually are) the most reliable here. The same can't be said for italian etc. cars.

Are you sure that it's not also because north american models are not made in Europe so the quality might be different?
Or maybe it's the expectations of customers. Few american cars are sold here because even the sedans are just huge ugly boats with wheels or houses on wheels to the european consumer's eye.
In my canton it's normal to change one's car after 5-10 years but that's a local cultural fact. I see lots of old german swiss german cars. Generally, newer cars break faster.
Also most cars here are manuals, only recently automatics have been spreading a bit more. In the US only the automatics are sold I guess, so that might influence reliability too since automatic cars need pricey repairs and have a higher probability of problems.

Anyway the whole thing about wages is stupid because it's difficult to take into account the cost of living, taxes, social security etc.
Besides the fact that Eastern Europe is where low value added stuff happens nowadays. In any western country it's impossible to pay people as low as the poorest people are paid in the US, the wealth spread is too low, so it just moved east.

Bingo.

 

[jagec]

They have to pay more to attract TOP TALENT!

 

[Ferzerp]

Silly necro, also, completely wrong. Germany, today, manufactures around 3/4 of the motor vehicles that the US does. 3/4 is much, much less than 2.

That is also as close as it has ever come to making as many as the US does.

 

[Throckmorton]

Eh? I love me some BMW, but the prices definitely aren't comparable, nor should they be honestly.

Let's take a 2006 325i vs. 2006 Fusion.

O2 Sensor

$21.79 Ford, $71.79 BMW

Brake caliper

$36.79 Ford, $70.79 BMW

Thermostat

$32.79 Ford, $75.79 BMW

Valve Cover Gasket

$12.75 Ford, $33.79 BMW

Those are the last four things I've replaced on a car, so just checked those prices on both. It adds up. I also prefer working on RWD, but some BMWs are a pita. Dealing with Vanos seals is an extra time consuming step for example, in most vehicles one doesn't have to worry about new seals for a pretty long time unless something goes wrong.

I seem to recall those parts being pretty expensive for my Jeep. Then again prices were probably inflated on Maui.

Still, labor is less on the BMW than the Fusion. Can you even change spark plugs on a V6 Fusion without removing a lot of junk? You know those old FWD Chryslers required removing a wheel to change the battery?