How far along do you think our civilization would have advanced

[SSSnail]

Had the Library of Alexandria not burnt down many times?

Wrong forum - meant to post this in OT.

 

[glenn1]

Had the Library of Alexandria not burnt down many times?

Wrong forum - meant to post this in OT.

Yep, should have built the Great Wall wonder first so those bastards would be forced to offer a peace treaty.

 

[JEDIYoda]

About as far as it has......

 

[Jaskalas]

Had the Library of Alexandria not burnt down many times?

The library was burned by people too ignorant for its knowledge.
Whatever it contained could not help them.

All we're really missing is a more complete picture of our own history. It's a terrible shame, a tragedy, but I doubt its loss alone held us back as a civilization.

 

[Schmide]

I heard it was all porn anyways

 

[norseamd]

Had the Library of Alexandria not burnt down many times?

Wrong forum - meant to post this in OT.

How about if Archimedes had never been murdered, which was against the orders of Roman general Marcus Claudius Marcellus, and after the siege, just like much of the rest of Greek art and material in Syracuse, had been brought to Rome, and heavily influenced the Romans. The Romans might have actually dabbled in science then, instead of being fairly apathetic and ignorant of it, not counting a few notable individuals.

 

[bshole]

Had the Library of Alexandria not burnt down many times?

Wrong forum - meant to post this in OT.

Oh my god, I am reading a book on the Alexandria Library right now (The Alexandria Link by Steve Berry). I started it yesterday. In the book it is said that the Muslims destroyed the entire contents of the library.

In 642 AD, Alexandria was captured by the Muslim army of 'Amr ibn al-'As. There are four Arabic sources, all at least 500 years after the supposed events, which mention the fate of the library.

• Abd'l Latif of Baghdad (1162–1231) states that the library of Alexandria was destroyed by Amr, by the order of the Caliph Omar.[18]
• The story is also found in Al-Qifti (1172–1248), History of Learned Men, from whom Bar Hebraeus copied the story.[19]
• The longest version of the story is in the Syriac Christian author Bar-Hebraeus (1226–1286), also known as Abu'l Faraj. He translated extracts from his history, the Chronicum Syriacum into Arabic, and added extra material from Arab sources. In this Historia Compendiosa Dynastiarum[20] he describes a certain "John Grammaticus" (490–570) asking Amr for the "books in the royal library." Amr writes to Omar for instructions, and Omar replies: "If those books are in agreement with the Quran, we have no need of them; and if these are opposed to the Quran, destroy them."[21]
• Al-Maqrizi (1364–1442) also mentions the story briefly, while speaking of the Serapeum.[22]

The story was still in circulation among Copts in Egypt in the 1920s.[23]

Edward Gibbon tells us that many people had credulously believed the story, but "the rational scepticism" of Fr. Eusèbe Renaudot (1713) did not.[24]

In the end it will not matter, humans will most likely be extinct or reduced back to savagery within the next million years or so. The apex of evolution is not human anyways, it is bacteria. That is the one organism that lived billions of years before we were here and will live millions or billions of years after we are gone.

 

[norseamd]

The library was burned by people too ignorant for its knowledge.
Whatever it contained could not help them.

All we're really missing is a more complete picture of our own history. It's a terrible shame, a tragedy, but I doubt its loss alone held us back as a civilization.

It was actually originally burned by the Romans, or at least that is when most of the books, documents, artifacts, and materials were annihilated in one of the various fires that hit the Library of Alexandria.

It could have been the fires when Julius Caesar was besieged there, or it could have been the fire when Aurelian was suppressing a revolt there.

I am guessing it was the fire under Aurelian, since the historians and poets who were relatively close in time to Caesar say only the ships and some houses on the coast were burnt down.

 

[norseamd]

Oh my god, I am reading a book on the Alexandria Library right now (The Alexandria Link by Steve Berry). I started it yesterday. In the book it is said that the Muslims destroyed the entire contents of the library.



In the end it will not matter, humans will most likely be extinct or reduced back to savagery within the next million years or so. The apex of evolution is not human anyways, it is bacteria. That is the one organism that lived billions of years before we were here and will live millions or billions of years after we are gone.

No, it was likely mostly destroyed far earlier than that.

 

[HeXen]

Not far at all, if any difference. Why would the authoring works of of such an age suddenly transcend our technology any further than it has? It's not like they wrote a book on how to build an anti gravity, portal creating device to the stars and forgot to actually build it.

 

[norseamd]

Not far at all, if any difference. Why would the authoring works of of such an age suddenly transcend our technology any further than it has? It's not like they wrote a book on how to build an anti gravity, portal creating device to the stars and forgot to actually build it.

Shhh .....

You are only making yourself look more stupid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

 

[SSSnail]

The reason I asked was because a documentation I watched about the Antikythera Mechanism and it was fascinating how advanced the Greek really was. And the library was burned down the first time by the Romans when they sacked ancient Syracuse and killed Archimedes.

And can some mod please move this to OT?

 

[Paratus]

The reason I asked was because a documentation I watched about the Antikythera Mechanism and it was fascinating how advanced the Greek really was. And the library was burned down the first time by the Romans when they sacked ancient Syracuse and killed Archimedes.

And can some mod please move this to OT?

Couple the advanced gear train of the Antikythera Mechansim, including differentials that wouldn't be seen again until the 18th century, with the roman steam engine "toy" and you would have had the steam engine revolution a millennia and half before it actually happened....

 

[zinfamous]

Not far at all, if any difference. Why would the authoring works of of such an age suddenly transcend our technology any further than it has? It's not like they wrote a book on how to build an anti gravity, portal creating device to the stars and forgot to actually build it.

no, they didn't write about space drives, but there was a ton of knowledge lost in that fire, much of it knowledge that may have been discovered but not understood by the discoverer at the time, whereas having that knowledge accessible over the next several centuries by scholars, inventors, hobbyists very well could have spurred advancement along certain lines in earlier generations. The idea is that with that knowledge having survived, we would have been thinking about space drives at the turn of the 20th or hell, even 19th century. Perhaps...

The steam engine was first invented and described in something like, 200 BC by a curious greek fellow. It was a circus curiosity that he attached to a pivoting stand that didn't really do anything but spin in place as the pressure releasing from the device created thrust. He thought it was neat and odd, but didn't really get it. IIRC, It actually wasn't known until very recently that this device existed, at that time. (EDIT: damn it paratus--couldn't you let me finish my manifesto?! )

On top of what ssssnail posted about the antiketheron mechanism, that culture was far, far more technologically advanced than we imagined, but so much of it was lost for centuries. When that kind of knowledge is available and other minds are able to work together to tease out how it works and how to apply it new ways, advancement occurs. It is certainly probable that had the library survived all that time, without extenuating circumstances, human civilization very well could have leaped several eras at a time than what we currently know as history.

..about those "Extenuating circumstances" That was also a far more insular, warlike, violent and disease-ridden, fearful and paranoid period in human history controlled by imperial and hereditary influence. It is perhaps just as likely that even with that knowledge available, not much would have come of it due to the attention place on expansion, defense, the mere desires of kings and emperors as to what a culture should be doing with its time. There was also great persecution at the time regarding such pursuits of "wizardry" as the church had the real influence and power. Any type of magiky device that then could display powers attributed only to a god would be deemed heretical and such pursuits banned--such was the power of that influence.

The Chinese had gunpowder and flamethrowers centuries before anyone else, but there overall advancement was kept in check by eras of dynastic internal fighting and persistent Mongolian invasions. Imagine if they had more expansionist goals without needing to worry about Mongols? we'd all probably be Chinese. Granted, one could argue that it was those eras filled with war that influenced the pursuit of such advanced technologies.

 

[IronWing]

I think it says a lot about our shared values that damn near everybody gets pissed off when a library is deliberately destroyed. We may forget the endless sacks of towns and cities but the libraries from Alexandria to Baghdad to the Mayans and more recently Timbuktu, are sore spots that are never forgotten.

 

[norseamd]

I think it says a lot about our shared values that damn near everybody gets pissed off when a library is deliberately destroyed. We may forget the endless sacks of towns and cities but the libraries from Alexandria to Baghdad to the Mayans and more recently Timbuktu, are sore spots that are never forgotten.

"cough"

"cough"

Palmyra

"cough"

Also Hatra, Nimrud, Jonahs Tomb, Nineveh, and far, far more.

"cough"

And yes I actually cared very much about all of those.

"cough"

 

[HeXen]

So like I said, not far at all.

 

[flexy]

Uhm...really, isn't this event just a small drop in a giant sea of human IGNORANCE?
Think about Galileo, Giordano Bruno etc. and how the church opposed scientific progress in the middle ages.
The underlying principle is surely the same, "entities in power" destroying (or rejecting) evidence since it threatened their power.
Whether its them having burnt the library, ISIS destroying temples and historic sites, or the church burning someone on the stake.
We underwent 100s and many more 100s of years of intentional idiocy because of that where progress and science was stopped.

 

[feralkid]

So like I said, not far at all.

Not you anyway.

 

[dawp]

Oh my god, I am reading a book on the Alexandria Library right now (The Alexandria Link by Steve Berry). I started it yesterday. In the book it is said that the Muslims destroyed the entire contents of the library.



In the end it will not matter, humans will most likely be extinct or reduced back to savagery within the next million years or so. The apex of evolution is not human anyways, it is bacteria. That is the one organism that lived billions of years before we were here and will live millions or billions of years after we are gone.

Name one species that hasn't changed into another over 1 million years, After all there were no homo sapiens 1 million years ago.


As to the question at hand, what if the Romans had invented the steam engine, They did come close.

 

[MongGrel]

Uhm...really, isn't this event just a small drop in a giant sea of human IGNORANCE?
Think about Galileo, Giordano Bruno etc. and how the church opposed scientific progress in the middle ages.
The underlying principle is surely the same, "entities in power" destroying (or rejecting) evidence since it threatened their power.
Whether its them having burnt the library, ISIS destroying temples and historic sites, or the church burning someone on the stake.
We underwent 100s and many more 100s of years of intentional idiocy because of that where progress and science was stopped.

Daesh is currently the modern version of The Spanish Inquisition in their minds.

There are plenty of evolved Catholics running about in the world not torturing/killing people over their beliefs these day I believe, someday radical Muslims will evolve out of the Middle Ages.

There are many non psychotic ones out there, but unfortunately many rabid dogs that are passing on their beliefs in isolated areas.

 

[bshole]

Name one species that hasn't changed into another over 1 million years, After all there were no homo sapiens 1 million years ago.


As to the question at hand, what if the Romans had invented the steam engine, They did come close.

I believe the goblin shark has not evolved over the last 125 million years. You just need to find ecosystems that don't change much over time like the bottom of a deep ocean...

 

[werepossum]

I heard it was all porn anyways

lol +1

no, they didn't write about space drives, but there was a ton of knowledge lost in that fire, much of it knowledge that may have been discovered but not understood by the discoverer at the time, whereas having that knowledge accessible over the next several centuries by scholars, inventors, hobbyists very well could have spurred advancement along certain lines in earlier generations. The idea is that with that knowledge having survived, we would have been thinking about space drives at the turn of the 20th or hell, even 19th century. Perhaps...

The steam engine was first invented and described in something like, 200 BC by a curious greek fellow. It was a circus curiosity that he attached to a pivoting stand that didn't really do anything but spin in place as the pressure releasing from the device created thrust. He thought it was neat and odd, but didn't really get it. IIRC, It actually wasn't known until very recently that this device existed, at that time. (EDIT: damn it paratus--couldn't you let me finish my manifesto?! )

On top of what ssssnail posted about the antiketheron mechanism, that culture was far, far more technologically advanced than we imagined, but so much of it was lost for centuries. When that kind of knowledge is available and other minds are able to work together to tease out how it works and how to apply it new ways, advancement occurs. It is certainly probable that had the library survived all that time, without extenuating circumstances, human civilization very well could have leaped several eras at a time than what we currently know as history.

..about those "Extenuating circumstances" That was also a far more insular, warlike, violent and disease-ridden, fearful and paranoid period in human history controlled by imperial and hereditary influence. It is perhaps just as likely that even with that knowledge available, not much would have come of it due to the attention place on expansion, defense, the mere desires of kings and emperors as to what a culture should be doing with its time. There was also great persecution at the time regarding such pursuits of "wizardry" as the church had the real influence and power. Any type of magiky device that then could display powers attributed only to a god would be deemed heretical and such pursuits banned--such was the power of that influence.

The Chinese had gunpowder and flamethrowers centuries before anyone else, but there overall advancement was kept in check by eras of dynastic internal fighting and persistent Mongolian invasions. Imagine if they had more expansionist goals without needing to worry about Mongols? we'd all probably be Chinese. Granted, one could argue that it was those eras filled with war that influenced the pursuit of such advanced technologies.

Well said. Many times knowledge is gained from one particularly sharp individual, but only becomes useful with the aid of a second individual (e.g. John Harington and Joself Gayetty) or when circumstances change such that the bit of knowledge becomes useful and necessary (e.g. Viking and/or Chinese explorers discovering the New World versus Columbus discovering the New World.) When this knowledge is lost, it must be rediscovered, which may require waiting for another genius to be born. Who knows if all the lost knowledge was ever rediscovered, or what might have developed from that knowledge before it was once again discovered?

Incidentally, we have the same problem today, called loss of our "commons". As we've lost manufacturing, we also lose the people's ability to solve the problems inherent in manufacturing and inventing. It's one thing to say that we'll manufacture the next iPhone in America, but practically speaking, we've pretty much lost the ability to do that and would have to rediscover it.