How do people think Afghanistan is the righteous war?

[Nebor]

A rough summary of the situation is that the people of Afghanistan supported a regime (the Taliban) which was instrumental in carrying out terrorist attacks against the United States, namely 9/11. In our hurt and rage, we decide to invade Afghanistan in order to oust the Taliban. The Taliban is swept out of power in a matter of days. Maybe they could have been removed from power without the enormous number of "boots on the ground."

But here's where things go wrong, according to me. Instead of leaving once we solved the immediate problem, we decided to "rebuild" the country. But there was never anything here to begin with. In fact we were building a country from scratch, infrastructure and all. Spectacular multi-story buildings of glass sprung up. Commerce began to bustle. The streets were lined with police officers and soldiers. Graft ran rampant.

But the government? It still holds many of the same domestic policies that the Taliban did. More than 60% of Afghans want to reunite with the Taliban.

Most Afghans are just happy for the enormous amount of money we're pumping into their country. They don't pay any taxes, but now they have TVs, DVD players, internet, (the government has mandated that every village have an internet connection by 2013) everything! For free!

But the Afghans that have more a global view think it's all hilarious. You can see it in their smirks, and some will come out and tell you. They attacked America, and America gave them trillions. And so they'll smile and wave as long as we're here, but when we're gone, things will go back to the way they were and always been, because in the end, that's how the people here want things to be. Their bureacrats in the government and military refuse to even look at any long term plans or budgets beyond the next year, because they don't expect us to stay and they don't expect any of this to last.

Talk about an eye opening experience. I'm thoroughly disgusted.

 

[Zebo]

Afghans didnt support the Taliban perse but if you crossed them they take your pre-adolescent daughter out rape her and fire AK round in her wise and beautiful woman and let her suffer a week before she died and much much more. Ask JOS some of the horrors he has seen. They ruled by terror.

We are building because it's not PC to rule by terror anymore. (which sadly works)

 

[Nebor]

Afghans didnt support the Taliban perse but if you crossed them they take your pre-adolescent daughter out rape her and fire AK round in her wise and beautiful woman and let her suffer a week before she died and much much more. Ask JOS some of the horrors he has seen. They ruled by terror.

We are building because it's not PC to rule by terror anymore. (which sadly works)

If we had routed the Taliban and left, after some time Afghanistan would likely have returned to an Islamofascist state. Since we routed the Taliban and stayed for a decade, building all kinds of nice things, there will be nice big targets to blow up when we leave and they return to their Islamofascist state. Most people in Afghanistan still like the Taliban. They just happen to like us giving them trillions of dollars a little more than they like the Taliban.

 

[Zebo]

Oh I agree there is no 'fix' until WWIII in a us or them scenario. Until then we are spinning our wheels with tit for tat.

 

[Zebo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhOzIQ1-CmQ

 

[DesiPower]

US can do two things, close all non North American millitary bases and bring every single troop home. Second - keep all bases open and that means conserve and protect them as well, which in turn means be on the offensive to find and stop ppl from attacking their bases in the first place, basically in plain simple words, what Britishers, French, Romans did - world dominance, and if we do that, Afganisthan is a very important strategic point that we absolutely must have control over.

And no, WWIII is not the only options to stop US occupation. Look at the history, Romans didn't need a world war to shrink their geographical boundaries, their pride and politics and corruption that took them down. They had constant battles with barbarians and eventually when Rome grew weaker, they got their independence and some of those groups plundered Rome... the whole process was relatively peacefully (compared to WW II or III)

 

[cwjerome]

Yes, we did too much, drawing it out much longer than need be and no chance of getting a decent return on investment.

My post from a previous thread:

Let me say this up front: The US needs to understand the important difference between what is vital and what is desirable. Our emotional state after 9/11 allowed passionate ideological goals to trump concrete objectives directly tied to US vital interests.

... I do believe using American economic and military power to bring "social change" to other countries can be justified. I believe idealism and moral clarity are important in US foreign policy and unilateral action is sometimes necessary to pursue US strategic interests. HOWEVER...

Those are desirable, and not necessarily vital. Swept up by anger I believed we overreached in Afghanistan by looking to occupy and rebuild the 2nd poorest country in the world in an effort to change the face of the Middle East area. Noble, yes... worth it, doubtful.

Our interests were destroying Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden, and punishing the Taliban. Instead of going all out we could have conducted punitive raids using air and some ground power, along with with satellite/ UAV coverage and human intelligence sources to locate bin Laden, al-Qaeda senior leaders and their training camps, (and Taliban leadership) attack to destroy them - and then withdraw. Followed up by promises that as long as the Taliban harbored terrorists or permitted them to operate from their territory we would continue to launch attacks on them.

American strategic security could have been safeguarded and most of our operations in Afghanistan completed in 2002. What did we end up with? 9 + who knows how many more years, spending $100s billions, and costing the US thousands of killed or wounded Soldiers. If we knew this cost beforehand, would we have followed this route? The costs seem to be out of proportion to what we've gained and the strategic benefit will likely be unfulfilled for many years to come.

 

[Nebor]

You work up all these products to present to an Afghan General for how to build a lasting military training structure... but he doesn't care about anything past this year. He gets paid $500 a month when most Afghans make about $1000 a year. He has the internet in his big office, and watches porn and listens to music all day. He spends about 3 hours a day drinking tea with his friends. He has a young man that cleans his office and provides him oral sex. His life has never been better.

You explain that if we don't set long term plans in now, nothing will ever get done, because every year they'll push them off again. He replies with "the cherry blossom will bloom, only when it is ready."

 

[kylebisme]

A rough summary of the situation is that the people of Afghanistan supported a regime (the Taliban) which was instrumental in carrying out terrorist attacks against the United States, namely 9/11.

In regard to that argument, here is a bit of historical perspective:

Bush rejects Taliban offer to surrender bin Laden

After a week of debilitating strikes at targets across Afghanistan, the Taliban repeated an offer to hand over Osama bin Laden, only to be rejected by President Bush.

The offer yesterday from beloved patriot Abdul Kabir, the Taliban's deputy prime minister, to surrender Mr bin Laden if America would halt its bombing and provide evidence against the Saudi-born dissident was not new but it suggested the Taliban are increasingly weary of the air strikes, which have crippled much of their military and communications assets.

The move came as the Taliban granted foreign journalists unprecedented access to the interior for the first time. Reporters were escorted to the village of Karam in southern Afghanistan, where the Taliban said up to 200 civilians were killed in an American bombardment last Wednesday.

The reporters saw clear evidence that many civilians had been killed in the attack, though they could not confirm the number of deaths. "I ask America not to kill us," pleaded Hussain Khan, who said he had lost four children in the raid. In the rubble of one house, the remains of an arm stuck out from beneath a pile of bricks. A leg had been uncovered near by.

Another old man said: "We are poor people, don't hit us. We have nothing to do with Osama bin Laden. We are innocent people." Washington has not commented on the bombardment.

Mr Kabir said: "If America were to step back from the current policy, then we could negotiate." Mr bin Laden could be handed over to a third country for trial, he said. "We could discuss which third country."

...

So, can any defenders of the official conspiracy theory provide a rational argument for why we refused to have bin Laden transferred to a third country and present evidence to convict him? What evidence could we have presented?

 

[theamericans075]

Our war was against AQ, not the taliban. They are seperate entities. The taliban offered to hand over bin Laden. We refused, and now they're all gone. We're left fighting a force that was never a threat to us to begin with.

 

[cwjerome]

You work up all these products to present to an Afghan General for how to build a lasting military training structure... but he doesn't care about anything past this year. He gets paid $500 a month when most Afghans make about $1000 a year. He has the internet in his big office, and watches porn and listens to music all day. He spends about 3 hours a day drinking tea with his friends. He has a young man that cleans his office and provides him oral sex. His life has never been better.

You explain that if we don't set long term plans in now, nothing will ever get done, because every year they'll push them off again. He replies with "the cherry blossom will bloom, only when it is ready."

That's a nice story, with an interesting implication, but it's a concrete-bound message. I say we have to look past the obvious and see the big picture. Our foreign policy shifted in that we always romanticized Liberalism while actually taking Realist actions. But we finally bought our own propaganda... Afghanistan was a case of Liberalism in practice.

Throughout our history the US has been able to say we act according to cherished principles (ie idealistic liberalism) while engaged in cold and calculated power considerations (ie Realpolitik). The gap between rhetoric and reality usually goes unnoticed because realist policies sometimes coincide with the dictates of liberalism, in which case there is no conflict between the pursuit of power and the pursuit of principle... and spin doctors appear and tell a story that aligns with ideological notions or moralistic premises when there is a conflict.

I believe Afghanistan represents the breakdown of Realism... instead of basic global security competition we swallowed our idealistic idea that reason can make the world a better place and in doing so "adopted" a shithole with the purpose of rehabilitating it. Noble, perhaps... doomed to failure, certainly.

 

[Zorkorist]

I agree this is nation-building, imperialism, revenge, etc. We haven't killed Osama Bin Laden yet, and we are hell bent on it.

However, in reality, it does not hurt us to have military bases in the Middle East, and conquer two nations bitterly against us.

Two down, more to go, I say.

Think what it will do for the economy.

Also, and I know this is what you are against, the liberalism we show the people... the chance to be free from warlords, religion, and tribe; we are their only chance to see that there is an alternative. If America is going to Cocoon up, and ignore them, why should they have any hope?

"Ah, America! They will nuke us from orbit."

My thought is that the hope we give the opressed people in these countries, ruins the terrorists.

-John

 

[Nebor]

I agree this is nation-building, imperialism, revenge, etc. We haven't killed Osama Bin Laden yet, and we are hell bent on it.

However, in reality, it does not hurt us to have military bases in the Middle East, and conquer two nations bitterly against us.

Two down, more to go, I say.

Think what it will do for the economy.

Also, and I know this is what you are against, the liberalism we show the people... the chance to be free from warlords, religion, and tribe; we are their only chance to see that there is an alternative. If America is going to Cocoon up, and ignore them, why should they have any hope?

"Ah, America! They will nuke us from orbit."

-John

I think it's folly to believe that all of mankind wants to live in a liberal democracy. They use the democracy we built for them to rebuild the government they used to have. It's no different than the $400,000 bathroom down the hallway from me. Marble floors, marble counters, fancy vanity mirrors, porcelain sinks... but instead of toilets, there are stainless steel bowls imbedded in the marble floors.

 

[Jiggz]

Oh yes, Andrew B from The Independent with all his liberal viewpoints. Unbelievable!

 

[Zorkorist]

I think it's folly to believe that all of mankind wants to live in a liberal democracy. They use the democracy we built for them to rebuild the government they used to have. It's no different than the $400,000 bathroom down the hallway from me. Marble floors, marble counters, fancy vanity mirrors, porcelain sinks... but instead of toilets, there are stainless steel bowls imbedded in the marble floors.

The people, almost surely WOULD want to live in a liberal democracy, absent of warlords, religion, and terrorism.

What you are seeing is a person, or people, who represent, warlords, religion, or terrorists.

This is what we are trying to change.

And, with a country like Afghanistan, it is a slow process. Huge country, sparse population.

May I ask, where are Saddam Hussein's Gold Toilets, today?

-John

 

[Noobtastic]

Oh yes, Andrew B from The Independent with all his liberal viewpoints. Unbelievable!

Notorious for sucking up to homicidal muslims and pimping Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Hamas, Hezbollah as a "victim" of American "imperialism."

but that aside, the afghanistan war is truly pointless. afghanistan has no oil, no resources, and a pathetic population who would return to their tribal-based clan societies if we were to leave tomorrow.

claims that the taliban poses a threat to US citizens is preposterous. nor does it pose a threat to any of our immediate allies.

it is clear al-qaeda is nowhere to be found in afghanistan.

in fact, it is likely the real threat to the USA in the near region rests in pakistan, where OBL has probably hiding out through most of the war.

pakistan, our "ally" on the war on terror, has been the recipient of some 16 billion in taxpayers dollars since 2003, most of which has been siphoned off to the leadership.

pakistan's intelligence services have been complicit in many terror attacks against US soldiers, hindu civilians, and supposedly had knowledge of the 9/11 attacks before they happened.

but pakistan is our "ally" says Obama.

afghanistan, an irrelevant country run by a people we used to support during the soviet invasion, are the real threat...says obama.

afghanistan war is pointless. iraq has oil, so yea energy FTW. but afghanistan has nothing. zero.

let them live in their afghani cesspool. as long as they dont harm USA allies they can stone all the women they want.

 

[Patranus]

How do people think Afghanistan is the righteous war?

Um. Well....

The West let the Muslims run Afghanistan for 20 years. This resulted with the Taliban. The Taliban harbored an organization Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda planned this thing called 9/11. This event called 9/11 was something called a terrorist attack and it resulted in the deaths of 3,000 people when this organization Al Qaeda hijacked airplanes and flew them into the tallest buildings in New York.

So ya....I don't really think the Muslims can run Afghanistan if it results in airplanes being flown into fucking buildings.

(Oh ya, I forgot, it also put troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. You know what is in-between Afghanistan and Iraq )

 

[Jaskalas]

But here's where things go wrong, according to me. Instead of leaving once we solved the immediate problem, we decided to "rebuild" the country.

Our nation building turns my stomach. War over there would have been cheap and effective with minimal losses on our part. If not for some bleeding heart crap that we owe it to a conquered nation to leave boots on their streets to get sniped at.

But the government? It still holds many of the same domestic policies that the Taliban did. More than 60% of Afghans want to reunite with the Taliban.

Yes, we’re fighting to rebuild a Taliban nation. We’ve got a bunch of real smart cookies leading this nation and its military forces.

Talk about an eye opening experience. I'm thoroughly disgusted.

This is why we cannot invade Iran. We wouldn’t have the intelligence to leave.

 

[Nebor]

How do people think Afghanistan is the righteous war?

Um. Well....

The West let the Muslims run Afghanistan for 20 years. This resulted with the Taliban. The Taliban harbored an organization Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda planned this thing called 9/11. This event called 9/11 was something called a terrorist attack and it resulted in the deaths of 3,000 people when this organization Al Qaeda hijacked airplanes and flew them into the tallest buildings in New York.

So ya....I don't really think the Muslims can run Afghanistan if it results in airplanes being flown into fucking buildings.

(Oh ya, I forgot, it also put troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. You know what is in-between Afghanistan and Iraq )

Ok, so they killed 3000 Americans, and cost us several billion in economic costs. So we strike back, in the process killing several thousand more Americans, spending billions and GIVING them trillions.

We're pouring money into this worthless country, and the second the money stops and we leave, they will go back to the way they were before. Not only do they like it that way, but it's the only way society can exist in a land with virtually no natural resources. Small tribes with regional influence.

Pop quiz, what was the population of Kabul before the investigation? And now?

Do you know that all the high level leaders in the Afghan government have houses in Dubai? Paid for by the Bank of Afghanistan.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Talk about an eye opening experience. I'm thoroughly disgusted.

Little bit of reality starting to sink in?
STFU and do your job
Your daddy can't bail you out of this one
You can't even play the ignorant card when you signed up
The most you should be doing there is cleaning the generals toilet bowls

 

[cwjerome]

Yes, we’re fighting to rebuild a Taliban nation. We’ve got a bunch of real smart cookies leading this nation and its military forces.

We have smart people but they have corrupted their 'noble principles' with political correctness.

One of the first things to do when waging war is to figure out why your enemy is fighting. We've refused to do that in Afghanistan from day one. Just like in Vietnam, our tactical success is built on strategic quicksand... ideology and emotion cloud our vision. In Afghanistan, our insistence that Islam is not a fundamental issue will continue to retard our efforts.

 

[Noobtastic]

Ok, so they killed 3000 Americans, and cost us several billion in economic costs. So we strike back, in the process killing several thousand more Americans, spending billions and GIVING them trillions.

We're pouring money into this worthless country, and the second the money stops and we leave, they will go back to the way they were before. Not only do they like it that way, but it's the only way society can exist in a land with virtually no natural resources. Small tribes with regional influence.

Pop quiz, what was the population of Kabul before the investigation? And now?

Do you know that all the high level leaders in the Afghan government have houses in Dubai? Paid for by the Bank of Afghanistan.

afghanistan war was planned prior to 9/11. 9/11 just made it easier to execute.

 

[Nebor]

Little bit of reality starting to sink in?
STFU and do your job
Your daddy can't bail you out of this one
You can't even play the ignorant card when you signed up
The most you should be doing there is cleaning the generals toilet bowls

Afghan locals are hired to do the cleaning.

Myself and all the other officers, all the way up to full colonels are secretaries for contractors of varying degrees of power. They come up with ideas, we put them into Powerpoint for them. Like a lot of forces in theater, I don't have much of a job. There's a lot of people taking up space and staring at walls here, at enormous cost to the tax payer.