How do I know how good my DAC is on my onboard sound card?

[pcslookout]

I am trying to figure out if it is hurting my headphone performance.

 

[WhiteNoise]

I doubt it is hurting the performance. What headphones and mobo you running?

 

[Ichinisan]

I think even the "good" ones are just subjectively good.

Digital audio with CD players has been mainstream since at least the '80s. Physically, it shouldn't cost any more to manufacture a "good" DAC versus a poor one. I'd say DACs should have normalized by now to the point where junk ones shouldn't even exist.

I haven't researched any of this, but most self-proclaimed "audiophile" folks delude themselves and "good" versus "bad" doesn't seem to be quantifiable.

 

[WhiteNoise]

I agree. just about any DAC will work well for most everyone. I am one of those that feel that a better DAC can be had. Some DAC chips are known for a certain characteristic. But I haven't heard a DAC ever that made me think it was bad or didn't sound right.

 

[Chapbass]

A LOT of this will depend on the headphones you are using. While I'm certainly not buying into all of the "audiophile" stuff like 1000 dollar coax cables and the like, a decent dac and amp can definitely have an impact on performance. For example, my headphones that I use all day at work and on the train are Shure SE215's. Nothing crazy, but a leap better than the earbuds that come with phones. I just recently purchased a Chord Mojo USB DAC/Amp, and last night I was playing around with whether I could hear an absolute, put-my-finger-on-it difference, or if it was just "better" but in a hazy, whatever kind of way. I didn't test for very long, but I immediately noticed two things:

1. Sound floor. My laptop (Dell Latitude 13 9350) headphone jack has an incredibly audible hiss. It doesn't sound bad if you're used to it, but I went back and forth several times with no music playing, and it wasn't even a questionable thing, it was absolutely there. You could hear it in several quiet passages as I tested back and forth with some music.

2. Lows/Mids: The music I was playing (Snarky Puppy's "Something") uses a lot of drums percussion. I did some A/B testing on three different sections of drum fills, and was surprised that I could actually hear the trail off of the lower toms for significantly longer and for more notes (one, for example, was of a drum fill going from high toms to low toms). I could hear 5 notes on the low toms, with the last two notes being significantly quieter, but only 3 on the onboard.. Could be related to the noise floor, but I'll have to listen when I have more time.

Yes, this is a DAC and amp together, not just a DAC, but it IS worth noting the noise floor is probably related to DAC and not as much amp. I was definitely a doubter, but when I tried out this Chord Mojo I was surprised at things I heard on tracks that Ive listened to 20+ times and never heard before. I would definitely say that there is definitely diminishing returns (comparing a $200 DAC vs a $1000 one, you probably won't hear much) and there is a ton of placebo effect stuff in the audio world, but a lot of the stock stuff is pretty terrible on most peripherals (just look at keyboards and mice, for example).


Anyway, to answer your question, the answer is "it depends". Sound is subjective (mostly), and it depends on your headphones, your computer, and your ears.

 

[darkswordsman17]

While I would mostly agree that DAC chips don't matter that much since they're generally more than good enough (certainly are not the weak link or even knowing the DAC chip doesn't tell you nearly as much as audiophiles try to claim; and while implementation matters I think a bit too much is made about that as well), you're not really talking about just DACs with regards to this, you're talking about the analog section, which can greatly change the results. And with headphones (where you're not using an amp if you're just plugging right into the motherboard), it can matter a lot.

Impedance mismatch alone can cause significant frequency response changes.

There's a wide variety of headphone types that present a pretty disparate load, and while companies have made things better (I think the newer Realtek chips have headphone driver, and some use that popular TI chip, and then there's a few that use a Sabre one), there's no guarantee that is the case or that it might not have issues (a bunch of stuff that uses that TI chip have a 10ohm output impedance which can definitely be an issue with IEMs and other very low impedance headphones).

Unfortunately, I don't think there's enough testing of audio output on motherboards to be able to really say for sure. Even places that bother doing much of any testing (usually some quick un-driven Rightmark tests) don't seem to test output impedance.

OP, what headphones do you have, what motherboard, and what do you think might be lacking in performance? Also what is your main use (gaming, music, production, etc)?

 

[darkswordsman17]

A LOT of this will depend on the headphones you are using. While I'm certainly not buying into all of the "audiophile" stuff like 1000 dollar coax cables and the like, a decent dac and amp can definitely have an impact on performance. For example, my headphones that I use all day at work and on the train are Shure SE215's. Nothing crazy, but a leap better than the earbuds that come with phones. I just recently purchased a Chord Mojo USB DAC/Amp, and last night I was playing around with whether I could hear an absolute, put-my-finger-on-it difference, or if it was just "better" but in a hazy, whatever kind of way. I didn't test for very long, but I immediately noticed two things:

1. Sound floor. My laptop (Dell Latitude 13 9350) headphone jack has an incredibly audible hiss. It doesn't sound bad if you're used to it, but I went back and forth several times with no music playing, and it wasn't even a questionable thing, it was absolutely there. You could hear it in several quiet passages as I tested back and forth with some music.

2. Lows/Mids: The music I was playing (Snarky Puppy's "Something") uses a lot of drums percussion. I did some A/B testing on three different sections of drum fills, and was surprised that I could actually hear the trail off of the lower toms for significantly longer and for more notes (one, for example, was of a drum fill going from high toms to low toms). I could hear 5 notes on the low toms, with the last two notes being significantly quieter, but only 3 on the onboard.. Could be related to the noise floor, but I'll have to listen when I have more time.

Yes, this is a DAC and amp together, not just a DAC, but it IS worth noting the noise floor is probably related to DAC and not as much amp. I was definitely a doubter, but when I tried out this Chord Mojo I was surprised at things I heard on tracks that Ive listened to 20+ times and never heard before. I would definitely say that there is definitely diminishing returns (comparing a $200 DAC vs a $1000 one, you probably won't hear much) and there is a ton of placebo effect stuff in the audio world, but a lot of the stock stuff is pretty terrible on most peripherals (just look at keyboards and mice, for example).


Anyway, to answer your question, the answer is "it depends". Sound is subjective (mostly), and it depends on your headphones, your computer, and your ears.

The hiss can be attributable to several things and that's definitely one of the drawbacks of audio components either in or directly on boards with computing stuff, there will often be audible noise.

Hiss can definitely be a problem (not just computers, but audio in general) but the DAC is likely the least of the problem there and it's more likely the analog section (which in a laptop likely won't be properly isolated) combined with sensitive earphones (hiss a common problem with IEMs due to the load they provide, a mix of high sensitivity and low impedance).

You very possibly could have been seeing a significantly altered freq response due to impedance mismatch (it's not always a subjectively negative thing, which is one of the many examples of "better sound" not necessarily being liked by some people). I can't recall what the Mojo's output impedance is (I have seen some say it isn't the best for IEMs as it has noticeable hiss and maybe some noise issue related to USB, although it could still be significantly better than the laptop's headphone jack).

The Mojo is pretty well thought of though so not shocking you saw such a disparity.

 

[biostud]

first thing would be to post what hardware you have, then we could help to answer...

 

[DaveSimmons]

My feeling is that DACs have been a solved problem for years now, there are no cost savings in making a bad one so bad ones don't get made.

What can happen is getting hiss or noise from RF interference or other components, though I haven't heard that with even $35 motherboards in many years. Decent audio is now so cheap that it's rare not to get it.

People like some sound chips more, but that's generally either placebo effect or liking ways that the chip + drivers tamper with the sound to make it "warmer" or "more spacious" or whatever. This comes from applying transformations to the flat, pure, allegedly "cold" sound.

So unless you're getting noise or have a desire to equalize or process your sound I wouldn't worry about it.