How do British text/history books treat the American Revolution?

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ryan256

Platinum Member
Jul 22, 2005
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0
71
Originally posted by: DVK916
Not everywhere in the U.S is one sided. In my H.S and college we use Howards Zinn book which is very critical of the U.S, hell my H.S teacher even did this thing on the evils of american history. All of the evil things the U.S did, like massacare over 500,000 women and children in the filipines. How we nuked Japan for no good reason. Stuff you don't get in alot of other class rooms.

Payback for Pearl Harbor :|
 

foghorn67

Lifer
Jan 3, 2006
11,883
63
91
Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: Atheus
Originally posted by: DVK916
Most people in the U.S don't learn that Russia was preparing for a million+ troops to invade Japan.

Yep:

Britain, soldiers served - 11,115,000, dead/missing - 580,000

USA, soldiers served - 11,260,000, dead/missing - 318,274

Russia, soldiers served - 34,476,700, dead/missing - 8,668,400

So if anything the Russians won the war. That isn't well known on either side of the pond.


Well how many christians did stalin kill during the same time has Hitler killing the jews?

Get back to me when you really want to talk history. Stalin was much more of a slaughterer than Hitler.

Funny how he ransacked Russian Orthodox churches, had priests executed, and relics destroyed. Yet when Germany was knocking at Moscow's door, Stalin grabbed an Orthodox Christian priests for prayer and service. The very next day, the German line was pushed back.
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
1
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Originally posted by: Atheus
Originally posted by: DVK916
Most people in the U.S don't learn that Russia was preparing for a million+ troops to invade Japan.

Yep:

Britain, soldiers served - 11,115,000, dead/missing - 580,000

USA, soldiers served - 11,260,000, dead/missing - 318,274

Russia, soldiers served - 34,476,700, dead/missing - 8,668,400

So if anything the Russians won the war. That isn't well known on either side of the pond.

When did number killed equate to amount accomplished?
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,590
16,585
146
Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Originally posted by: Atheus
Originally posted by: DVK916
Most people in the U.S don't learn that Russia was preparing for a million+ troops to invade Japan.

Yep:

Britain, soldiers served - 11,115,000, dead/missing - 580,000

USA, soldiers served - 11,260,000, dead/missing - 318,274

Russia, soldiers served - 34,476,700, dead/missing - 8,668,400

So if anything the Russians won the war. That isn't well known on either side of the pond.

When did number killed equate to amount accomplished?

Well, somewhere between 70-80% of all German military casualties were on the Eastern Front (over 4 million German military dead and more than 3 million captured). So Stalin's cannon fodder campaign did take a very heavy toll on Germany.
 

Nerva

Platinum Member
Jul 26, 2005
2,784
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Originally posted by: Atheus
I don't think it gets much of a mention in schools to be honest - there's just too much British history to cover, so many colonies and wars and conflicts, so many important people...

In the history books they just try to tell the truth I guess. Why? Are we painted in a bad light in US schools? I wouldn't be surprised. I heard they teach that America won the second world war pretty much by itself.

i took AP US History (1 Year) in high school. revolutionary era, in my opinion, was treated with fairness. my teacher didnt really sway me in anyway, just simply laid out the facts.

 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
I understand not really getting into the whole revolution that much. If you think about it, it is fairly recent in the entire scope of things that get covered for the history of england. Not to mention in technical terms it wasnt even really a revolution.

I know in american history we usually got to around the very end of the 1890's. Thats what 1/4 of our history that is just considered to recent to be mentioned. Now imagine youre british. 1/4 of your history is like 1700 and up. You'd only really have time to hit the major stuff. Since Brittian was fighting a war with France the same time we were rebelling, I assume it isnt much more then a few pages mentioning kicking out the pilgrims and something about a bunch of guys named Jefferson, Adams, Washington and Franklin getting nutty and throwing one crazy tea party.

America is just one little snippet in the history of the world. Try not to get offended when the rest of the world only nods.

BTW, I always enjoyed that the south still refers to the Civil war as the War between the States or even better the War of Northern Aggression. Personally I can not blame them, history is written by who ever is more convincing.
 

Q

Lifer
Jul 21, 2005
12,042
4
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Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
So basically, they skip the whole ugly hundreds of years of British colonial imperialism and intrusion and jump from ancient rome to WWII. No wonder Brits are so damn snooty.....THEY'RE PERFECT!!!


hehe, funny
 

DaShen

Lifer
Dec 1, 2000
10,710
1
0
Originally posted by: foghorn67
Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: Atheus
Originally posted by: DVK916
Most people in the U.S don't learn that Russia was preparing for a million+ troops to invade Japan.

Yep:

Britain, soldiers served - 11,115,000, dead/missing - 580,000

USA, soldiers served - 11,260,000, dead/missing - 318,274

Russia, soldiers served - 34,476,700, dead/missing - 8,668,400

So if anything the Russians won the war. That isn't well known on either side of the pond.


Well how many christians did stalin kill during the same time has Hitler killing the jews?

Get back to me when you really want to talk history. Stalin was much more of a slaughterer than Hitler.

Funny how he ransacked Russian Orthodox churches, had priests executed, and relics destroyed. Yet when Germany was knocking at Moscow's door, Stalin grabbed an Orthodox Christian priests for prayer and service. The very next day, the German line was pushed back.

Is this true?
 
May 16, 2000
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This is actually part of my school project right now. I'm contacting high school (or equivalent) history professors in different countries and obtaining copies of their texts, their teaching plans, syllabi, etc. I'm looking to do a proposal for my Masters program regarding methods to move beyond egocentrism in teaching.
 

Ricemarine

Lifer
Sep 10, 2004
10,507
0
0
Originally posted by: ryan256
Originally posted by: DVK916
Not everywhere in the U.S is one sided. In my H.S and college we use Howards Zinn book which is very critical of the U.S, hell my H.S teacher even did this thing on the evils of american history. All of the evil things the U.S did, like massacare over 500,000 women and children in the filipines. How we nuked Japan for no good reason. Stuff you don't get in alot of other class rooms.

Payback for Pearl Harbor :|

Actually, I saw this on the History Channel... Apparently one of the planes could not find his correct destination bombing a Japanese military base due to fog (IIRC), and let it loose somewhere... I forgot details :D.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
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Originally posted by: DVK916
Read howard zinns book, it is a standard in most U.S history classes now, or atleast it should be. The U.S is moving away from being one sided with our history.

Hardly standard. I only got it once in college. When discussing it in my teaching program as a possibility for part of the curriculum I was laughed out of the room because most high schools (at least in the western states) would burn a teacher at the stake for even mentioning that Howard Zinn exists. I don't know a single history teacher in high school who is allowed to teach balanced, non-egocentric history. Not that I know everyone of course, but in my experience it's extremely slanted still.
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
This is actually part of my school project right now. I'm contacting high school (or equivalent) history professors in different countries and obtaining copies of their texts, their teaching plans, syllabi, etc. I'm looking to do a proposal for my Masters program regarding methods to move beyond egocentrism in teaching.

The paper entitled "How America Is Ruining The Lives Of Everyone On The Planet"?
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
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Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
This is actually part of my school project right now. I'm contacting high school (or equivalent) history professors in different countries and obtaining copies of their texts, their teaching plans, syllabi, etc. I'm looking to do a proposal for my Masters program regarding methods to move beyond egocentrism in teaching.

The paper entitled "How America Is Ruining The Lives Of Everyone On The Planet"?

Nah, that's standard middle school material there. Once we've established that America sucks we need move beyond it though, hence the new project.

;)

No, actually it really is more about developing a 'global classroom' ideology than just bashing egocentrism...though the two are certainly related. I figure our system was originally based on systems from other countries so it's folly not to get their input on current practices.
 

Minjin

Platinum Member
Jan 18, 2003
2,208
1
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The amount of self-flagellism is this thread is astonishing. I'm amazed we're able to accomplish anything in this country with people like you guys telling us that everything we do is bad. One poster talks about not being swayed either way when learning about the American Revolution? Huh? We're actually supposed to think that we shouldn't have revolted and that doing it was wrong? You gotta be kidding me...

 

A5

Diamond Member
Jun 9, 2000
4,902
5
81
Originally posted by: Ricemarine
Originally posted by: ryan256
Originally posted by: DVK916
Not everywhere in the U.S is one sided. In my H.S and college we use Howards Zinn book which is very critical of the U.S, hell my H.S teacher even did this thing on the evils of american history. All of the evil things the U.S did, like massacare over 500,000 women and children in the filipines. How we nuked Japan for no good reason. Stuff you don't get in alot of other class rooms.

Payback for Pearl Harbor :|

Actually, I saw this on the History Channel... Apparently one of the planes could not find his correct destination bombing a Japanese military base due to fog (IIRC), and let it loose somewhere... I forgot details :D.

The final target list was something like this:
1) Kokura Arsenal
1a) Hiroshima
2) Nagasaki
3) Others.

(Wikipedia says that Hiroshima was the first target, but I'm not sure if that jives with what I heard in class this summer)

The day that Kokura was to be bombed, it was clouded over, and since the bomber had orders for a visual drop only, they moved on to their secondary target.

The Japanese indicated to the Russians in late July/early August that they were willing to negotiate a conditional surrender...they were hoping that the Russians would be a benevolent 3rd party in the ensuing talks with the Americans, but the Russians instead declared war on the Japanese a few days later. There's a lot of historical debate on whether or not the second bomb was necessary, and whether or not the Japanese would have had enough time to realize what had happened in Hiroshima and surrender before the bombing of Nagasaki.

Also, the reasoning of "the bombs saved American lives" was never stated by Truman or anyone in his administration until the early 1950s. The main reasons stated at the time were more along the lines of revenge for PH, justifying the Manhattan Project, and destroying the Japanese war machine/will to fight.

(Also, my teacher was a South African ex-pat with British citizenship who left South Africa after he was approached by the Apartheid gov't to join their atomic weapons program)
 

DarkKnight69

Golden Member
Jun 15, 2005
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On D-Day, the Allies landed around 156,000 troops in Normandy. The American forces landed numbered 73,000: 23,250 on Utah Beach, 34,250 on Omaha Beach, and 15,500 airborne troops. In the British and Canadian sector, 83,115 troops were landed (61,715 of them British): 24,970 on Gold Beach, 21,400 on Juno Beach, 28,845 on Sword Beach, and 7900 airborne troops.
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
Originally posted by: Atheus
Originally posted by: DVK916
Most people in the U.S don't learn that Russia was preparing for a million+ troops to invade Japan.

Yep:

Britain, soldiers served - 11,115,000, dead/missing - 580,000

USA, soldiers served - 11,260,000, dead/missing - 318,274

Russia, soldiers served - 34,476,700, dead/missing - 8,668,400

So if anything the Russians won the war. That isn't well known on either side of the pond.

It takes at least 5 Russians to equal 1 Brit or American.
 

everman

Lifer
Nov 5, 2002
11,288
1
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Originally posted by: Amused

Well, somewhere between 70-80% of all German military casualties were on the Eastern Front (over 4 million German military dead and more than 3 million captured). So Stalin's cannon fodder campaign did take a very heavy toll on Germany.

One reason why the Germans fought the Russians harder was because they didn't want a Russian controlled Germany, they much rather preferred the U.S. and other western allies to take over because they wouldn't be nearly as brutal as the Russians who wanted revenge.
 

Jawo

Diamond Member
Jun 15, 2005
4,125
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Originally posted by: Roguestar
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Atheus
Why? Are we painted in a bad light in US schools? I wouldn't be surprised. I heard they teach that America won the second world war pretty much by itself.

The English government of the period is painted in a bad light, yes.

And no, our schools do NOT teach that the US won WWII on it's own. On the contrary, the Brits are painted as tough as nails heroes who withstood the Battle of Britain and won North Africa.

Churchill is painted as a hero as well. Though Montgomery is rather scorned, his efforts are not.

D-Day history focuses mainly on the US because of the horrible time we had at Omaha Beach.

http://qdb.us/28824

That quote is disturbing on so many levels!
 

Jawo

Diamond Member
Jun 15, 2005
4,125
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Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Feldenak
Originally posted by: MmmSkyscraper
Originally posted by: Atheus

Britain, soldiers served - 11,115,000, dead/missing - 580,000
USA, soldiers served - 11,260,000, dead/missing - 318,274
Russia, soldiers served - 34,476,700, dead/missing - 8,668,400

:Q
rose.gif

IIRC, Stalin liked frontal assaults and would just repeatedly throw men into meat grinders. The other Allies tended to "care" more for the troops.

Yeah, while I have total respect for the Soviet soldiers, Stalin used them as little more than cannon fodder. It was a war of attrition, nothing more. Had Stalin not had the numbers, he would have lost miserably.

Stalin had murdered any and all great military minds in the purges previous to WWII. He was left with some of the worst military leadership one could ask for when Germany invaded.

Yup...Couldn't have said it better myself!
 

Jawo

Diamond Member
Jun 15, 2005
4,125
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Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Atheus
Originally posted by: mugs
Why should we have been willing to let them set the terms of their surrender?

To avoid a lot of civilian deaths?

Or they could have dropped one in the sea or something, got everyone soaking wet, and said "there's more where that came from". That might have done the trick.

We killed far more civilians in the firebombings of Tokyo than we did with the bombs. Not to mention the bombings of other Japanese cities.

WWII was the last war won and the last successful occupation of a country because the civilian populations were pounded into submission. Every man of fighting age was either dead, or captured.

As we have learned (or should have learned) since, merely targeting the military does not work. You either fight the entire country, or you do not fight at all.


Yup....if you look at Population Pyramids of Japan, it curves in drastically for 35-39 yr olds and comes back out for 60-64 yr olds...No one to have kids in what was the baby boom in the Unites States.

For Comparison: UK US


 

TehMac

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2006
9,976
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Originally posted by: AtheusIn the history books they just try to tell the truth I guess. Why? Are we painted in a bad light in US schools? I wouldn't be surprised. I heard they teach that America won the second world war pretty much by itself.
Not true at all mate. Teachers impress upon children the fact that the war was not one alone by the US. Even propaganda posters made by the US at the time reinforced the idea.

 

TehMac

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2006
9,976
3
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Originally posted by: Jawo
Originally posted by: Amused

Stalin had murdered any and all great military minds in the purges previous to WWII. He was left with some of the worst military leadership one could ask for when Germany invaded.

Yup...Couldn't have said it better myself!
No, he basically cut down on his army, which is never good for any country. But he lived on a dictatorship, so it was smart for him. Note how the dictators always have small armies in case generals try to overrun them? We're lucky we live in free societies where the people is controlled not by fear but the government is controlled by the people.
But Russia had a tactical genius, he used the rocket launchers to deadly effect at the late 44's. I forget his name, but he was quite something. Russians were very untrained, because there were so many of them. Thats all generals could afford to do with them. They did have some pretty good weapons. Good for street fighting anyway.
 

doze

Platinum Member
Jul 26, 2005
2,786
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Originally posted by: Roguestar
Originally posted by: Kanalua
Lived in Northern Ireland for a while, all of the Unionist/Protestants refered to the United States of America as "The Colonies."

We mostly all say "The Yanks" or "The Colonies" if we're being sarcastic.


PS: We're just waiting for america to finally throw a huge tantrum and we'll revoke your independence, send you all to your rooms without dessert and slap the Union Jack all over your important buildings again. You'll spell "color" and "flavor" with Us again and you will learn how to drive with a "stick shift". Also 3:30-4PM each day will be nominated as obligatory "teatime" when everyone stops work for tea and crumpets. I say!

This made me laugh, but a mid afternoon break sounds wonderful