how did the vietnam war end? what would end the war in Iraq??
- Thread starter luv2liv
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UberNeuman
Lifer
- Nov 4, 1999
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The Vietnam war endeded when we decided we didn't want to fight it anymore. That is called an "optional war." A similar fate awaits Iraq.
- Oct 30, 2000
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there are such things as history and propaganda books.
Also, morgues (media).
And check out some of the Vet organizations - interesting insight.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
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Unfortunately, at least IMHO, its not going to be as easy to get out of Iraq as it was it was getting out of Vietnam.
Basically, both Vietnam's were way out in left field and amounted to more a proxy war struggle between the super powers of Russia and The USA. And as a domino theory strategy, the USA supposedly had to stop the spread of communism in South east Asia. And if we didn't stop it in S. Vietnam, all the rest of the neighboring countries would fall.
At the time, China was not the economic power it is now and was basically ignored. But China did set the ground rules by stating that if the US put boots on the ground to invade North Vietnam, China would come in on the side of North Vietnam. And since China had done the same in Korea, it was fresh in the military mind regarding what happened when the US went from liberating South Korea to invading North Korea. And as the USA and the UN topped the next hill in North Korea, surprise surprise, they found the entire Chinese army coming at them. An experience the USA was not willing to risk repeating in North Vietnam. But in the ground rules, it was permitted to attempt to bomb North Vietnam back to the stone age while we lost up to 300 troops per week in the South.
The gist of it is after years of making no headway, Nixon simply adopted the McGovern peace plan, renamed it peace with honor, we proclaimed yippee we won, and sailed home. The domino theory ended up being a crock of bull, Communism did not bag the lot, but it did end up destabilizing all the regional governments. And with Cambodia, the Vietnam war was one of the root causes of the killing fields of Cambodia. In the end analysis, Vietnam was a football to struggle over and the game needed the football. As soon as the game was over, no one wanted the football. And today Vietnam is still way out in left field as they struggle to join the global economy.
Iraq is not out there in left field and is coveted by everyone because of its oil. As it is, its an artificial country that never should have been because of all its ethnic divisions. And simply put together by the British after WW1 from the left over bits of the failed Ottoman empire. Iraq's Kurd's threaten the Turks, its Shias will tend to ally with Iran, and any Iraqi Iran alliance along Shia lines dangerously isolates Saudi Arabia. And Saudi Arabia will not passively sit back and watch the Sunnis in Iraq get butchered in ethnic cleansing. Meanwhile everyone in the region hates Israel which hardly helps the USA. And after five years of Iraqi anarchy with no end in sight, no stable or predictable Iraq
seems to be emerging. As long as the US stays thereby bringing some order to the quagmire, the worse case fears of the regional governments will be held in check. The second the US leaves, every country in the region will want a piece of the corpse. And if nothing else, the motivation will be to prevent their neighbors from grabbing it first. And did I forget to mention the near by Persian Gulf? If the gets blockaded, we are talking instant world wide depression as the economy of most oil based economies will grand to a halt.
The lesson to be learned---be careful of what small man you pull out of the crowd to thrash thereby proving how tough you are. Some come from left field and others are right there in the center of thing. And some are like the main support beams in a building, cut those and everything falls down.
Can GWB pick em or what---it amounts to at least the bone head play of the century. We thrashed Iraq easily but now what? Fools went where angel fear to thread. And now we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. Its going to take some very smart long term diplomacy to get out of this mess. The Condi Rice pretend Iran does not exist is not working.
Basically, both Vietnam's were way out in left field and amounted to more a proxy war struggle between the super powers of Russia and The USA. And as a domino theory strategy, the USA supposedly had to stop the spread of communism in South east Asia. And if we didn't stop it in S. Vietnam, all the rest of the neighboring countries would fall.
At the time, China was not the economic power it is now and was basically ignored. But China did set the ground rules by stating that if the US put boots on the ground to invade North Vietnam, China would come in on the side of North Vietnam. And since China had done the same in Korea, it was fresh in the military mind regarding what happened when the US went from liberating South Korea to invading North Korea. And as the USA and the UN topped the next hill in North Korea, surprise surprise, they found the entire Chinese army coming at them. An experience the USA was not willing to risk repeating in North Vietnam. But in the ground rules, it was permitted to attempt to bomb North Vietnam back to the stone age while we lost up to 300 troops per week in the South.
The gist of it is after years of making no headway, Nixon simply adopted the McGovern peace plan, renamed it peace with honor, we proclaimed yippee we won, and sailed home. The domino theory ended up being a crock of bull, Communism did not bag the lot, but it did end up destabilizing all the regional governments. And with Cambodia, the Vietnam war was one of the root causes of the killing fields of Cambodia. In the end analysis, Vietnam was a football to struggle over and the game needed the football. As soon as the game was over, no one wanted the football. And today Vietnam is still way out in left field as they struggle to join the global economy.
Iraq is not out there in left field and is coveted by everyone because of its oil. As it is, its an artificial country that never should have been because of all its ethnic divisions. And simply put together by the British after WW1 from the left over bits of the failed Ottoman empire. Iraq's Kurd's threaten the Turks, its Shias will tend to ally with Iran, and any Iraqi Iran alliance along Shia lines dangerously isolates Saudi Arabia. And Saudi Arabia will not passively sit back and watch the Sunnis in Iraq get butchered in ethnic cleansing. Meanwhile everyone in the region hates Israel which hardly helps the USA. And after five years of Iraqi anarchy with no end in sight, no stable or predictable Iraq
seems to be emerging. As long as the US stays thereby bringing some order to the quagmire, the worse case fears of the regional governments will be held in check. The second the US leaves, every country in the region will want a piece of the corpse. And if nothing else, the motivation will be to prevent their neighbors from grabbing it first. And did I forget to mention the near by Persian Gulf? If the gets blockaded, we are talking instant world wide depression as the economy of most oil based economies will grand to a halt.
The lesson to be learned---be careful of what small man you pull out of the crowd to thrash thereby proving how tough you are. Some come from left field and others are right there in the center of thing. And some are like the main support beams in a building, cut those and everything falls down.
Can GWB pick em or what---it amounts to at least the bone head play of the century. We thrashed Iraq easily but now what? Fools went where angel fear to thread. And now we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. Its going to take some very smart long term diplomacy to get out of this mess. The Condi Rice pretend Iran does not exist is not working.
Vietnam? Basically, we got the other side to quit shooting so we wouldn't have to take any lead in our backsides, then declared victory and left. From there, N Vietnamese victory was inevitable. I suspect it was inevitable all along, given that the US really doesn't have the stomach for the level of mass murder involved to have "won".
The Vietnamese really didn't have anything we wanted, anyway. It wasn't about resources, but rather about geo-political ideology.
Iraq is different- they do have something we want, no matter how strongly anybody tries to deny it, and there's no centralized entity we can negotiate with in order to create any illusion of victory whatsoever...
The reasons for going in were all lies, so I suspect that'll really be the way out, too. Somebody just has to show the chutzpah to declare victory and leave, that's all... It'll sell- the public will gladly buy it, whatever it is... and the chips will fall where they may after we're gone... likely where they'll fall anyway,,,
The Vietnamese really didn't have anything we wanted, anyway. It wasn't about resources, but rather about geo-political ideology.
Iraq is different- they do have something we want, no matter how strongly anybody tries to deny it, and there's no centralized entity we can negotiate with in order to create any illusion of victory whatsoever...
The reasons for going in were all lies, so I suspect that'll really be the way out, too. Somebody just has to show the chutzpah to declare victory and leave, that's all... It'll sell- the public will gladly buy it, whatever it is... and the chips will fall where they may after we're gone... likely where they'll fall anyway,,,
Blueychan
Senior member
- Feb 1, 2008
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The Vietnamese war ended because of liberal hippies like Jane Fonda and friends. All the Amercans have to do was continuously pounding the Vietcong with airtrike and that War would have ended 10 years earlies and Vietnamese would be a rich democracy country instead of 3rd world country.
well, militarily, i can't remember one major battle that was lost by the US military in vietnam. what i do recall is how the rules of engagement that was handed down from the civilian politicians severely hamstrung and shackled the full potential of what was and still is the finest standing military branches of service on the face of this earth.
those of us who were preoccupied with trying to stay alive long enough to make it out of the hellhole that our politicians created there didn't much give a rat's ass about the hippies and the protests and what that silly hanoi jane was doing on any given weekend until we got shipped home. we did take notice though of how stupid it was to continuously grab some turf by day and give it all back when the sun went down. or how amazing it was that what we saw on the ground never really mattered to the white shirts that were calling all the shots unless it had anything to do with the body count. but we did our job anyway. we kicked charlie's ass whenever they came out of the holes they were hiding in. at our level, it's all that really mattered.
it's the politicans and their lack of worldly skills that created the vietnam experience just as it's now happening in iraq. the lack of historical continuity brought on by the near-sighted, short-term and exclusive agendas that the current administration is pursuing just makes things even worse for the nation as whole.
and hey, i do agree that in that completely different world on the home front, the protests and the negative media exposure coming out of 'nam really did have a lot of effect on the course of the war, but that didn't really matter to me until alot of us got older and a wee bit wiser.
Nice summary.
I've heard there's oil just offshore Vietnam - don't tell anyone or we'll be back - unless China's already got its eye on it.
glenn1
Lifer
- Sep 6, 2000
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Following the signing of the Paris Accords in early 1973, most U.S. combat troops were removed from theater. Nixon resigned. Congress cut funding to the South Vietnamese government. North Vietnam rolled tanks into Saigon. We evacuated our embassy via helicopter. The communists commenced shipping hundreds of thousands to re-education camps and murdering wholesale. Cambodia fell in turn, followed by Laos. Genocide occured, boat people refugees happened, several millions died. Jimmy Carter got elected. Vietnam invaded Cambodia. Souteast Asia entered a 20+ year dark age, which only began to lift a touch during Clinton's administration.
I think we'd have to recruit a lot more troops and deal with Iran as well; that's where all the insurgents are coming from now.
If we don't do that, then we'll just move on out, they'll retake Iraq, and it'll all have been for nothing.
If we don't do that, then we'll just move on out, they'll retake Iraq, and it'll all have been for nothing.
Blueychan
Senior member
- Feb 1, 2008
- 602
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The Americans should be more aggressive. At several times, Honoi called a cease-fire when they were bombarded with airstrike. The American should've kept pounding them until they actually wave the white flag. As it turn out, Honoi call cease-fire only to stop the attack and give them time to recuperate.
The hippies' protests at home worsened the situation because they hampered the aggression, dragged out the war, and ultimately forced the withdrawal.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,991
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The blueychan revisionist history is--The hippies' protests at home worsened the situation because they hampered the aggression, dragged out the war, and ultimately forced the withdrawal.
Please don't give me that crap. I lived through the Vietnam war and I had friends whose names are on that wall. It took a full four years for the antiwar movement to even reach any kind of critical mass. And much of that mass came from Vietnam vets who quite correctly realized they had been lied to. Even after Nixon ended the draft ending much of the protests, the progress on the ground was nada zero zippo zit. The USA simply joined a long list of Vietnamese occupiers who tried to stay but failed. After Nixon proclaimed peace with honor, the South Vietnamese government went on business as usual. But one push when Nixon got in domestic trouble and it fell. Like Iraq, the USA is good at setting up puppet governments, and piss poor at offering anything to the people. We have a top down strategy that loses every time to an insurgency that has a bottom up strategy. An occupier must reach the occupied on the terms of the occupied. We did not reach the people and lost. Simple as that, a defect no amount of money or power can correct.
Please don't give me that crap. I lived through the Vietnam war and I had friends whose names are on that wall. It took a full four years for the antiwar movement to even reach any kind of critical mass. And much of that mass came from Vietnam vets who quite correctly realized they had been lied to. Even after Nixon ended the draft ending much of the protests, the progress on the ground was nada zero zippo zit. The USA simply joined a long list of Vietnamese occupiers who tried to stay but failed. After Nixon proclaimed peace with honor, the South Vietnamese government went on business as usual. But one push when Nixon got in domestic trouble and it fell. Like Iraq, the USA is good at setting up puppet governments, and piss poor at offering anything to the people. We have a top down strategy that loses every time to an insurgency that has a bottom up strategy. An occupier must reach the occupied on the terms of the occupied. We did not reach the people and lost. Simple as that, a defect no amount of money or power can correct.
JSt0rm
Lifer
- Sep 5, 2000
- 27,402
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Yeah those little things called democracy and free speech get in the way of proper mass killing. I am young but i remember listening to stories of vietcong soldiers on npr. The gist of the story that impacted me the most was a women soldier's story who was talking about another young girl soldier who was going on about nail polish and boys. Of course that night that young girl was blown to bits by a bomb with the other women as witness.
I also remember hearing the story of an american marine who was out on patrol or something with his company at night and when someone was shot and it was pitch black he remembered wishing the man would just die already because he was moaning in pain. Finally the man stopped making noise and in the morning he realized it was his best friend and he was dead. I can't even imagine what that must of felt like. When you add the human element to these things it really makes you wonder why we continue to kill.
I also remember hearing the story of an american marine who was out on patrol or something with his company at night and when someone was shot and it was pitch black he remembered wishing the man would just die already because he was moaning in pain. Finally the man stopped making noise and in the morning he realized it was his best friend and he was dead. I can't even imagine what that must of felt like. When you add the human element to these things it really makes you wonder why we continue to kill.
It amazes me how some Americans still try to justify this war or blame its failures not on its fundamental causes but on protesters. I had written a lengthy response but deleted it because no matter how much I pick apart these idiots' arguments, they've held that view for 40 years and aren't about to give it up to some guy on the internet.
He's right.....do you know anything about the vietnam war?
Try reading some real history books about Vietnam before posting such total BS.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
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Yep, its all Hanio Jane's fault. One not very attractive hollywood starlet caused the US to lose all by her little lonesome. And she had bigger tits than all the USO girls combined. And sucked all joy out of the entire nation.
When the fact is that if we were still in Vietnam today, we would still be losing because we would still be the hated occupier.
But ough ough, I have an excellent idea, lets blame Hanio Jane for our losses in Iraq and Afghanistan. Quick Quick, assassinate her now, it will cause our win tomorrow. Without Hanio Jane to inspire him, Ossama Bin Laden will run not walk to surrender himself to the nearest US soldier. Jesus Christ will come back to earth and all Muslims will convert to Christianity. Only Jane Fonda roadblocks that coming paradise.
Writing revisionist history is such fun. And after we win in Iraq and Afghanistan, we can go back to Vietnam and get it right this time. But we better muzzle Jane first.
When the fact is that if we were still in Vietnam today, we would still be losing because we would still be the hated occupier.
But ough ough, I have an excellent idea, lets blame Hanio Jane for our losses in Iraq and Afghanistan. Quick Quick, assassinate her now, it will cause our win tomorrow. Without Hanio Jane to inspire him, Ossama Bin Laden will run not walk to surrender himself to the nearest US soldier. Jesus Christ will come back to earth and all Muslims will convert to Christianity. Only Jane Fonda roadblocks that coming paradise.
Writing revisionist history is such fun. And after we win in Iraq and Afghanistan, we can go back to Vietnam and get it right this time. But we better muzzle Jane first.
UberNeuman
Lifer
- Nov 4, 1999
- 16,939
- 3,083
- 126
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