How Could A Voluntary Society Function? (full explanation)

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Nielsio

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Apr 11, 2010
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Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE9dZATrFak

Text:

1. Introduction

We start with the premise that the widely shared beliefs in a society are:
1 ) Don't harm other people
2 ) Respect their property
3 ) That part of nature that you transform and make valuable becomes yours
4 ) A violation of these principles is an attempt to live at the expense of others, and cannot be allowed

In a small village this could work in a straight forward manner, where people all know each other. If you did something bad everyone would learn about it, which would cause an immediate backfire and you would have to make things right or become an outcast. What is relied on here is the reputation of someone, which describes their trustworthiness.

Knowing the reputation of members of the society by memory is possible in a small village, but becomes quickly impossible as the society becomes larger. It also becomes more complex. For example: one person has agreed to make a delivery at a certain time but is delayed two hours because of a heavy storm. Who now owes what to whom? Or: there is a rich person with a lot of resources and a not so rich person who wants to trade his labor. How does the little guy know that he will be treated fairly? Who does he go to if his overtime isn't paid? Remember, there is no government in a voluntary society.

Luckily, we can foresee problems. In a market where there is no government, it is a valuable asset -competitively speaking- to be able to show your potential business partners that you can be trusted. You set yourself up to be checked, and if you don't follow through then you lose that asset that allowed you to be trusted.

One way in which this principle could be formalized and professionalized is as follows:


2. Contract Arbitration and Reputation Records

You pay a business for a special kind of database service. With this service you have the ability to create permissions to add an entry, to create permissions to read the database, but no possibility to change or remove entries. The next step is when you engage in a contract with someone, that you agree on an arbitrator (who is also paid) who will interpret the actions of the parties according to the contract in case of a dispute. The arbitrator gets an access code to make an entry in the databases of the parties. If there is a dispute and the arbitrator decides against you, and you are not willing to comply with the ruling, then the arbitrator will put his findings in your database. This means that you no longer have a way of showing potential trading partners that you are trustworthy; at least until you make things right. And in this market where such a proof has become the norm, you will be at a great disadvantage. Trading partners also require from each other that the arbitrator keeps a publicly accessible list of the unresolved disputes by way of the details of the violator and the full details of the case.

People can't just get a new record when they've done something bad, because a record that doesn't go back far is more a proof that someone is trying to hide something. In the same way, a record hosted by a provider that people can't verify is reliable is of little value.

Personal records are very important, so providers have to make sure there are multiple online, offline and offsite backups; making them impervious to natural disasters and crime.

People will only agree on arbitrators that they trust, because they don't want to be judged unfairly. People will also want arbitrators that are trusted by many other people, so that a strike in the other person's record will have a big impact, lowering the risk of being cheated by the other party. Another differentiating factor is the knowledge the arbitrator has about the specific kind of business that is being done. A dispute about farm animals requires a different set of knowledge than a dispute about microchips. The only way to get a good idea of the behavior of an arbitrator and their performance in a specific field is that they give insight into the cases that they've handled before. They could make the cases anonymous or give people a discount to be able to publish it, and cases where someone doesn't go along with the ruling get published anyways. Consumers also have a need in being able to make their case public themselves (with possible extra evidence) if they think they've been wronged by an arbitrator. Independent organizations could facilitate in all these functions so that people can find out about arbitrators, their specialties, their performances, their prices, and to keep them in check. The career of an arbitrator is thus built on making sound judgments and in a voluntary market will face a quick ruin if they stray from this.


3. Property

The above described system deals with persons and property, but only that property which is mutually recognized. Both parties can perceive to have benefit from a trade and at least temporarily agree on what property is who's and what limits of behavior exist (for example, before you go into a car showroom you contract that the store and the goods there are not yours and that you will pay for any accidental damages). So what happens when two people have a disagreement about property outside of contractual agreements? Suppose two businessmen want to do mining in the same area, but one of them is using an entrance with his equipment and the other one wants to pass. Do they draw their guns? What is the solution? Who is actually right?

In a same manner as before, these problems can be foreseen. And because they can be foreseen we come to expect certain proofs and procedures to be adopted to handle the situation.

Society at large does not want people to take property that does not rightfully belong to them. So in the case of land, to gain legitimacy in the public view in case of a conflict, you pay for an independent and trusted service of verifying and filing what you have done to the land and when. If you have publicly trusted records that you built a house somewhere 20 years ago, and some other person shows up who declares it is his yet he has no verifiable and trusted record of this, then we can safely conclude that the second person is either a criminal or deranged. A protection agency would in that case also be willing to draw arms if necessary, to protect the legitimate owner. This is also to say that a protection agency cannot simply sell its services to any buyer in any way because they too are scrutinized by the public. If they are viewed as being above-the-rules mercenaries, criminals, they become the opponent of the entire society, which has many more guns, resources, manpower, and are all cooperating.

In the mining example there is no clear criminal. This means that resorting to strong arm tactics would be highly suspect. Because it is easy to see that this kind of non-contracted dispute can also occur it becomes expected from people engaging in new land use to have a predetermined and knowable list of arbitrators that they are willing to use in such a case. As different fields have different arbitrators specializing in them (farming, drilling, mining, et cetera), there will be suitable arbitrators that are successful and respected. We expect these to occur on those lists. All of this would be the reasonable solution. If one of the two parties feels he is being treated unfairly, he will always have the trump card of going to the press and making the case public, for which there can be a high price to pay by his opponent.


4. Identification

How can you prove to a customer that a reputation record belongs to you? We foresee this problem and it is of very high value to us so we allow ourselves to be uniquely identifiable by our reputation provider, which becomes part of the service.


5. Market context: costs and benefits

The mechanism that has been explained is one way in which a voluntary society could function. Some situations may warrant a higher investment for an even lower risk. For industrial land disputes they may settle on using multiple arbitrators from the field who decide through a vote. For contract-disputes people may want to use a tiered arbitration, meaning that the first arbitration step is cheaper and either party can decide to decline the verdict and go for the final -more precise and expensive- procedure. It is also possible that the function of reputation service and arbitration is offered as one, and it could just as well become separated even further. We cannot know these things exactly, and what the market will come up with will most likely far exceed any of our current imaginations.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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He's basically trying to advocate laissez-faire capitalism or anarchy. It sounds good in principle, but in actual practice it devolves into a slave society where a small percentage of the people end up owning most of the wealth. Consequently, that would also give them the de facto ability to dictate most aspects of people's lives, such as what religion or philosophical belief people must have.

(For example, using the free trader principle, a business owner might decide that anyone who is Jewish (or Muslim or Christian or Kantian, or who doesn't follow a Libertarian or Objectivist philosophy) should be fired and never hired. What if all of the people who owned the land and capital felt that way?)

The fundamental flaw is that humans often have legitimate and rational inherent conflicts of interest. Sadly, the resources that people need to sustain themselves only exist in limited, finite quantities.

For example, my evil excrement-grubbing Immanuel Kant-loving socialist buddies might want to band together and open our own Atlantis-like commune or start our own factory, but we can't since wealthy landowners own all of the useful land and mines, etc.; that stuff only exists in finite, limited quantities.

The most laughable system is outright anarchy where some nutjobs believe that private police forces can do the policing.
 
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matt0611

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2010
1,879
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He's basically trying to advocate laissez-faire capitalism or anarchy. It sounds good in principle, but in actual practice it devolves into a slave society where a small percentage of the people end up owning most of the wealth. Consequently, that would also give them the de facto ability to dictate most aspects of people's lives, such as what religion or philosophical belief people must have.

(For example, using the free trader principle, a business owner might decide that anyone who is Jewish (or Muslim or Christian or Kantian, or who doesn't follow a Libertarian or Objectivist philosophy) should be fired and never hired. What if all of the people who owned the land and capital felt that way?)

...

The only places where the average man has gotten out of grinding poverty is places where there has been capitalism and relatively free trade.

The US saw explosive growth in prosperity in the late 1800s and early 1900s, we had capitalism and relatively free trade.

Now I don't advocate for anarchy and I won't claim the free market works in all situations. But I do think its the best system that we have so far.


And about the restaurant not serving particular races...

First off, they would get terrible press for being racists, and there would also be businesses that undercut them because they would accept all races, they would do better.

If a business owner doesn't want to serve your race, do you really want to do business with him anyway? I wouldn't...
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE9dZATrFak

Text:

1. Introduction

We start with the premise that the widely shared beliefs in a society are:
1 ) Don't harm other people
2 ) Respect their property
3 ) That part of nature that you transform and make valuable becomes yours
4 ) A violation of these principles is an attempt to live at the expense of others, and cannot be allowed

In a small village this could work in a straight forward manner, where people all know each other. If you did something bad everyone would learn about it, which would cause an immediate backfire and you would have to make things right or become an outcast. What is relied on here is the reputation of someone, which describes their trustworthiness.

Knowing the reputation of members of the society by memory is possible in a small village, but becomes quickly impossible as the society becomes larger. It also becomes more complex. For example: one person has agreed to make a delivery at a certain time but is delayed two hours because of a heavy storm. Who now owes what to whom? Or: there is a rich person with a lot of resources and a not so rich person who wants to trade his labor. How does the little guy know that he will be treated fairly? Who does he go to if his overtime isn't paid? Remember, there is no government in a voluntary society.

Luckily, we can foresee problems. In a market where there is no government, it is a valuable asset -competitively speaking- to be able to show your potential business partners that you can be trusted. You set yourself up to be checked, and if you don't follow through then you lose that asset that allowed you to be trusted.

One way in which this principle could be formalized and professionalized is as follows:


2. Contract Arbitration and Reputation Records

You pay a business for a special kind of database service. With this service you have the ability to create permissions to add an entry, to create permissions to read the database, but no possibility to change or remove entries. The next step is when you engage in a contract with someone, that you agree on an arbitrator (who is also paid) who will interpret the actions of the parties according to the contract in case of a dispute. The arbitrator gets an access code to make an entry in the databases of the parties. If there is a dispute and the arbitrator decides against you, and you are not willing to comply with the ruling, then the arbitrator will put his findings in your database. This means that you no longer have a way of showing potential trading partners that you are trustworthy; at least until you make things right. And in this market where such a proof has become the norm, you will be at a great disadvantage. Trading partners also require from each other that the arbitrator keeps a publicly accessible list of the unresolved disputes by way of the details of the violator and the full details of the case.

People can't just get a new record when they've done something bad, because a record that doesn't go back far is more a proof that someone is trying to hide something. In the same way, a record hosted by a provider that people can't verify is reliable is of little value.

Personal records are very important, so providers have to make sure there are multiple online, offline and offsite backups; making them impervious to natural disasters and crime.

People will only agree on arbitrators that they trust, because they don't want to be judged unfairly. People will also want arbitrators that are trusted by many other people, so that a strike in the other person's record will have a big impact, lowering the risk of being cheated by the other party. Another differentiating factor is the knowledge the arbitrator has about the specific kind of business that is being done. A dispute about farm animals requires a different set of knowledge than a dispute about microchips. The only way to get a good idea of the behavior of an arbitrator and their performance in a specific field is that they give insight into the cases that they've handled before. They could make the cases anonymous or give people a discount to be able to publish it, and cases where someone doesn't go along with the ruling get published anyways. Consumers also have a need in being able to make their case public themselves (with possible extra evidence) if they think they've been wronged by an arbitrator. Independent organizations could facilitate in all these functions so that people can find out about arbitrators, their specialties, their performances, their prices, and to keep them in check. The career of an arbitrator is thus built on making sound judgments and in a voluntary market will face a quick ruin if they stray from this.


3. Property

The above described system deals with persons and property, but only that property which is mutually recognized. Both parties can perceive to have benefit from a trade and at least temporarily agree on what property is who's and what limits of behavior exist (for example, before you go into a car showroom you contract that the store and the goods there are not yours and that you will pay for any accidental damages). So what happens when two people have a disagreement about property outside of contractual agreements? Suppose two businessmen want to do mining in the same area, but one of them is using an entrance with his equipment and the other one wants to pass. Do they draw their guns? What is the solution? Who is actually right?

In a same manner as before, these problems can be foreseen. And because they can be foreseen we come to expect certain proofs and procedures to be adopted to handle the situation.

Society at large does not want people to take property that does not rightfully belong to them. So in the case of land, to gain legitimacy in the public view in case of a conflict, you pay for an independent and trusted service of verifying and filing what you have done to the land and when. If you have publicly trusted records that you built a house somewhere 20 years ago, and some other person shows up who declares it is his yet he has no verifiable and trusted record of this, then we can safely conclude that the second person is either a criminal or deranged. A protection agency would in that case also be willing to draw arms if necessary, to protect the legitimate owner. This is also to say that a protection agency cannot simply sell its services to any buyer in any way because they too are scrutinized by the public. If they are viewed as being above-the-rules mercenaries, criminals, they become the opponent of the entire society, which has many more guns, resources, manpower, and are all cooperating.

In the mining example there is no clear criminal. This means that resorting to strong arm tactics would be highly suspect. Because it is easy to see that this kind of non-contracted dispute can also occur it becomes expected from people engaging in new land use to have a predetermined and knowable list of arbitrators that they are willing to use in such a case. As different fields have different arbitrators specializing in them (farming, drilling, mining, et cetera), there will be suitable arbitrators that are successful and respected. We expect these to occur on those lists. All of this would be the reasonable solution. If one of the two parties feels he is being treated unfairly, he will always have the trump card of going to the press and making the case public, for which there can be a high price to pay by his opponent.


4. Identification

How can you prove to a customer that a reputation record belongs to you? We foresee this problem and it is of very high value to us so we allow ourselves to be uniquely identifiable by our reputation provider, which becomes part of the service.


5. Market context: costs and benefits

The mechanism that has been explained is one way in which a voluntary society could function. Some situations may warrant a higher investment for an even lower risk. For industrial land disputes they may settle on using multiple arbitrators from the field who decide through a vote. For contract-disputes people may want to use a tiered arbitration, meaning that the first arbitration step is cheaper and either party can decide to decline the verdict and go for the final -more precise and expensive- procedure. It is also possible that the function of reputation service and arbitration is offered as one, and it could just as well become separated even further. We cannot know these things exactly, and what the market will come up with will most likely far exceed any of our current imaginations.

2 ) Respect their property

That ended with Government.

-John
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
Some may say that #1 and #3 ended with Government as well.

1 ) Don't harm other people

3 ) That part of nature that you transform and make valuable becomes yours

-John
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
All you are posting, is more Government.

It is the individual, and by consensus, that rules.

It is also the individual. and by consensus, that breaks rules.

-John
 
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Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
The only places where the average man has gotten out of grinding poverty is places where there has been capitalism and relatively free trade.

The US saw explosive growth in prosperity in the late 1800s and early 1900s, we had capitalism and relatively free trade.

Now I don't advocate for anarchy and I won't claim the free market works in all situations. But I do think its the best system that we have so far.

Oh, I don't disagree with you. I'm not opposed to having a free market in areas where it makes sense to do that. I'm not a full blown socialist; merely an advocate of a mixed economy with elements of capitalism in some areas and socialism in others.

And about the restaurant not serving particular races...

First off, they would get terrible press for being racists, and there would also be businesses that undercut them because they would accept all races, they would do better.

If a business owner doesn't want to serve your race, do you really want to do business with him anyway? I wouldn't...

If 95% of the populace believed in a certain belief it might not bother them if 5% suffered discrimination for not believing in it. Suppose that 95% of the people almost religiously believed in a philosophy which held that morality and philosophical belief is black-and-white and that anyone who disagreed was either irrational and/or immoral in some sort of a way. Such a philosophy might also uphold the free trader principle and the value of private property. Thus, if a businessman wanted to discriminate against people on the basis of their not holding that same philosophy it wouldn't bother those 95% of the populace. (After all, it's his private property and if he wants to discriminate against people whom he believes are irrational or immoral why shouldn't he be allowed to do that?)

We already see businesses trying to dictate aspects of people's lives even today. Have you heard the story about some businesses that require employees to be non-smokers even in the privacy of their own homes? I don't doubt for a second that businesses would engage in racial, religious, and sexual orientation discrimination if they were legally allowed to do so.

I can understand the logic behind thinking that real capitalism is the cure for racism and discrimination, but I'm not nearly as optimistic about that. I think if you've bought into free market dogma it's easy to take a blue-skies benevolent universe premise approach and have faith that people would be accepting of other people's beliefs.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
The US saw explosive growth in prosperity in the late 1800s and early 1900s, we had capitalism and relatively free trade.

On the contrary, many labor workers fought and died during this era against the corporations for us to have any freedoms, weekends, 8 hour days, overtime, womens vote, etc. Your revisonism is sickening knowing how many families died in this country back then to corporate thugs protecting CEO bottom lines.

I would suggest a few good old classic working class American movies like "Salt of the Earth" if you want to know the joys of capitalism back then if you were anyone other then the elites.

Learn the history of the USA already, not Mises/Koch bros revisionist bullshit.
 
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matt0611

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2010
1,879
0
0
On the contrary, many labor workers fought and died during this era against the corporations for us to have any freedoms, weekends, 8 hour days, overtime, womens vote, etc. Your revisonism is sickening knowing how many families died in this country back then to corporate thugs protecting CEO bottom lines.

Yes, because millions of people from all over the world came here to be exploited and die... :rolleyes:

You think they came from places of better conditions?

Fought against against the corporations for freedom? LOL

You mean like when Henry Ford doubled the wages of his men and decreased the work days because of all the efficiencies his ideas made possible? Despite none of the workers being in a union.

People have better jobs, more pay, and more time off because of increased capital, efficiencies, technologies, more competition, new ideas and innovations, etc. Not because people "fought the corporations and died" lol.

Your economic illiteracy astounds me. Learn economics already, and not marxist bullshit.
 
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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Your economic illiteracy astounds me.

You have a lot to learn about the history of labor and the rise of a middle class in this country still obviously.

There is a good chance if you are of a few generations your very own descendants died overworked, underpaid and not better then human cattle if it were not for the workers struggle here.

Give you a hint about real history and economics in this country: no corporation in this country will ever give anything away without a fight unless it helps their own bottom line (or they have no other choice).

GO back in history in the era you state, find a liberty won. (8 hour workday/overtime for example) and you will find people died revolting against the bosses for each one.

No liberty has been won in this country without the status quo (industry) fighting the people when they get sick of being exploited.

That is is something you can count on 100% from 1500's in this continent to now in history. What you state is a fantasyworld as it is inherently against the very nature (and track record) of capitalism in the real world.


Just a small sample of history randomly pulled:


11 June 1913 (United States)
Police shot three maritime workers (one of whom was killed) who were striking against the United Fruit Company in New Orleans.
1914 (United States)
According to a report by the Commission on Industrial Relations, approximately 35,000 workers were killed in industrial accidents and 700,000 workers were injured in the U.S.
20 April 1914 (United States)
The "Ludlow Massacre." In an attempt to persuade strikers at Colorado's Ludlow Mine Field to return to work, company "guards," engaged by John D. Rockefeller, Jr. and other mine operators and sworn into the State Militia just for the occasion, attacked a union tent camp with machine guns, then set it afire. Five men, two women and 12 children died as a result.[4][5]
13 November 1914 (United States)
A Western Federation of Miners strike is crushed by the militia in Butte, Montana.
19 January 1915 (United States)
World famous labor leader Joe Hill was arrested in Salt Lake City, Utah. He was convicted on trumped up murder charges, and was executed 21 months later despite worldwide protests and two attempts to intervene by President Woodrow Wilson. In a letter to Bill Haywood shortly before his death he penned the famous words, "Don't mourn - organize!"


On this same day, twenty rioting strikers were shot by factory guards at Roosevelt, New Jersey.



These killings and blood shed go on and on. Your revisionism is written by the very profiteers who so gladly shed the blood of working class Americans who built this country for pennies, you should be ashamed.
 
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Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Holy shit, the OP's example is fucking retarded, yet another anarcho-capitalist drivel that makes no sense. In your society, he with the most guns wins. If you have one private organization that has a deed that says the your land is yours, I'll hire another organization to show a deed that says that says is mine. Also, my organization has more guns and mercenaries than your organization. Now the land now belongs to me. You say society won't tolerate it and society as a whole has more guns than my organization? You greatly underestimate human nature's capacity to avoid violence unless they really have to. In your mining example, if i overtake a mine, it's likely to not be near civilization. Nobody's going to risk their life in a dispute that's a) far away b) has nothing to do with them and c) it's not so clear cut who really owns the land because there's no single ultimate authority to determine this.

Capitalism does not exist without some minimal level of government.

Perhaps an-caps should move to Somalia if they're so unhappy with a functioning government.

The only anarchist society that has ever worked on a large scale are the ones that were founded in Spain where resources were shared by all.
 

matt0611

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2010
1,879
0
0
You have a lot to learn about the history of labor and the rise of a middle class in this country still obviously.

Recommend me some good books? I'll read them, I'm always open to new arguments even if they conflict with my current understandings.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Recommend me some good books? I'll read them, I'm always open to new arguments.

You don't have to read shit. You should know by now that workers were treated like human garbage during industrialization and they had to fight for the rights you take for granted today (which are being slowly stripped away). The strengthening of the middle class during the post war period was an anomaly that only happened because Europe and Asia were still recovering from WW2 and that all came screeching to a halt once the 70's came around and they started competing with us and we lost our national monopoly on manufacturing.

How do you not know this by now?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Recommend me some good books? I'll read them, I'm always open to new arguments even if they conflict with my current understandings.

Also, no country has ever gone from poor to rich via free trade. The US, UK, most of Europe all were protectionists when they were fledgling countries. If you don't believe that, then you just have to look at all of the successful Asian countries as modern examples. Japan protected their industries from foreign competition via government subsidies and import quotas. Free Trade economists urged Japan to, instead, adopt the theory of comparative advantage and trade in raw materials like silk instead and let their failing companies (like Toyota) just fail and go away instead. Korea followed a similar path. China does so via currency manipulation, government subsidies, no control for pollution and absolutely wretched working environment for it's citizens.

Read economist Ha-Joon Chang's book on this:

http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Samaritans...6252616&sr=8-1
 
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