How come European car makers aren't striving for better reliability?

[reallyscrued]

Originally posted by: evident
theres a guy at my work w/ a 318ti that's at 197k miles. he says he does alot of preventative maintenance on it though and fixes them as he goes along (his neighbor works at a bmw dealer as a mechanic.)

Preventative maintenance can keep a beemer running upwards of 200,000 miles without breaking a sweat, but it gets hella expensive. I know for a fact E36s needed a complete cooling system overhaul (water pump, radiator, thermostat) after about 75,000 miles or you would have to pay big bucks for a blown head gasket or bent rods. Then come the ball joints, control arms, tie rod ends, and all this other crap that would go bad.

And somehow my dad has done nothing but change the oil in his Camry for the last 80,000 miles and it's been peachy.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: SearchMaster

Originally posted by: RichUK
My current BMW is a MY?04 which I bought in the first half of ?08. I bought it off a relative with 50k on the clock as he was in the process of upgrading to a new MB. It?s now on 68k miles since I?ve had it and the only things I?ve had to replace during this time were the alternator and front brake calliper seals.

The ?06 330ci I had before it was flawless apart from a slight creak from the passenger seat when driving over speed bumps, pot holes, etc.

Why people always over exaggerate and shit on BMW reliability I?ll never know.

Most people who knock the reliability of a BMW have never even owned one. 😕

You've only had to replace the alternator and brake seals in the 18K miles you've had it? Congrats! 😉

:thumbsup::laugh::thumbsup:

I am glad someone else caught that. If having an Alt and brakes go out in 18k is reliable, then damm do I have a sweet reliable Yugo to sell ya.

Go out and buy a Caddiliac CTS or a Lexus and come back and see how ?reliable? that BMW was.


I use to be a full time Auto tech and even at the end had my own shop, let alone have owned a European car before. European cars are much less reliable then most American and Asian brands. This is also backed up by reliability reports. Now car makers are able to inflate their reliability since they have the maintaince package so they can fix items before the customer complains so they don?t show up on reliability reports anymore. But it still does not change the fact that if you want less headaches buy an American or Asian car.

 

[RichUK]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: SearchMaster

Originally posted by: RichUK
My current BMW is a MY?04 which I bought in the first half of ?08. I bought it off a relative with 50k on the clock as he was in the process of upgrading to a new MB. It?s now on 68k miles since I?ve had it and the only things I?ve had to replace during this time were the alternator and front brake calliper seals.

The ?06 330ci I had before it was flawless apart from a slight creak from the passenger seat when driving over speed bumps, pot holes, etc.

Why people always over exaggerate and shit on BMW reliability I?ll never know.

Most people who knock the reliability of a BMW have never even owned one. 😕

You've only had to replace the alternator and brake seals in the 18K miles you've had it? Congrats! 😉

:thumbsup::laugh::thumbsup:

I am glad someone else caught that. If having an Alt and brakes go out in 18k is reliable, then damm do I have a sweet reliable Yugo to sell ya.

Go out and buy a Caddiliac CTS or a Lexus and come back and see how ?reliable? that BMW was.


I use to be a full time Auto tech and even at the end had my own shop, let alone have owned a European car before. European cars are much less reliable then most American and Asian brands. This is also backed up by reliability reports. Now car makers are able to inflate their reliability since they have the maintaince package so they can fix items before the customer complains so they don?t show up on reliability reports anymore. But it still does not change the fact that if you want less headaches buy an American or Asian car.

Reading comprehension is not your forte.

Try again.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: RichUK

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: SearchMaster

Originally posted by: RichUK
My current BMW is a MY?04 which I bought in the first half of ?08. I bought it off a relative with 50k on the clock as he was in the process of upgrading to a new MB. It?s now on 68k miles since I?ve had it and the only things I?ve had to replace during this time were the alternator and front brake calliper seals.

The ?06 330ci I had before it was flawless apart from a slight creak from the passenger seat when driving over speed bumps, pot holes, etc.

Why people always over exaggerate and shit on BMW reliability I?ll never know.

Most people who knock the reliability of a BMW have never even owned one. 😕

You've only had to replace the alternator and brake seals in the 18K miles you've had it? Congrats! 😉

:thumbsup::laugh::thumbsup:

I am glad someone else caught that. If having an Alt and brakes go out in 18k is reliable, then damm do I have a sweet reliable Yugo to sell ya.

Go out and buy a Caddiliac CTS or a Lexus and come back and see how ?reliable? that BMW was.


I use to be a full time Auto tech and even at the end had my own shop, let alone have owned a European car before. European cars are much less reliable then most American and Asian brands. This is also backed up by reliability reports. Now car makers are able to inflate their reliability since they have the maintaince package so they can fix items before the customer complains so they don?t show up on reliability reports anymore. But it still does not change the fact that if you want less headaches buy an American or Asian car.

Reading comprehension is not your forte.

Try again.

Knowing what a reliable car is does not seem to be your "forte".

Try another car.

 

[RichUK]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: RichUK

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: SearchMaster

Originally posted by: RichUK
My current BMW is a MY?04 which I bought in the first half of ?08. I bought it off a relative with 50k on the clock as he was in the process of upgrading to a new MB. It?s now on 68k miles since I?ve had it and the only things I?ve had to replace during this time were the alternator and front brake calliper seals.

The ?06 330ci I had before it was flawless apart from a slight creak from the passenger seat when driving over speed bumps, pot holes, etc.

Why people always over exaggerate and shit on BMW reliability I?ll never know.

Most people who knock the reliability of a BMW have never even owned one. 😕

You've only had to replace the alternator and brake seals in the 18K miles you've had it? Congrats! 😉

:thumbsup::laugh::thumbsup:

I am glad someone else caught that. If having an Alt and brakes go out in 18k is reliable, then damm do I have a sweet reliable Yugo to sell ya.

Go out and buy a Caddiliac CTS or a Lexus and come back and see how ?reliable? that BMW was.


I use to be a full time Auto tech and even at the end had my own shop, let alone have owned a European car before. European cars are much less reliable then most American and Asian brands. This is also backed up by reliability reports. Now car makers are able to inflate their reliability since they have the maintaince package so they can fix items before the customer complains so they don?t show up on reliability reports anymore. But it still does not change the fact that if you want less headaches buy an American or Asian car.

Reading comprehension is not your forte.

Try again.

Knowing what a reliable car is does not seem to be your "forte".

Try another car.

😕

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: RichUK

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: RichUK

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: SearchMaster

Originally posted by: RichUK
My current BMW is a MY?04 which I bought in the first half of ?08. I bought it off a relative with 50k on the clock as he was in the process of upgrading to a new MB. It?s now on 68k miles since I?ve had it and the only things I?ve had to replace during this time were the alternator and front brake calliper seals.

The ?06 330ci I had before it was flawless apart from a slight creak from the passenger seat when driving over speed bumps, pot holes, etc.

Why people always over exaggerate and shit on BMW reliability I?ll never know.

Most people who knock the reliability of a BMW have never even owned one. 😕

You've only had to replace the alternator and brake seals in the 18K miles you've had it? Congrats! 😉

:thumbsup::laugh::thumbsup:

I am glad someone else caught that. If having an Alt and brakes go out in 18k is reliable, then damm do I have a sweet reliable Yugo to sell ya.

Go out and buy a Caddiliac CTS or a Lexus and come back and see how ?reliable? that BMW was.


I use to be a full time Auto tech and even at the end had my own shop, let alone have owned a European car before. European cars are much less reliable then most American and Asian brands. This is also backed up by reliability reports. Now car makers are able to inflate their reliability since they have the maintaince package so they can fix items before the customer complains so they don?t show up on reliability reports anymore. But it still does not change the fact that if you want less headaches buy an American or Asian car.

Reading comprehension is not your forte.

Try again.

Knowing what a reliable car is does not seem to be your "forte".

Try another car.

😕

Let's put it this way. 68k miles for an alternator failure and brake seal failure is rare. That is bad.

The fact that the 06 330Ci had no problems in 2.5 years of ownership means nothing. 2.5 years is still a new car.

If someone posted Oh no my brake seals and alternator went on a lower mileage car like a Toyota, people would be all over it.

68k miles is not high mileage, it's not even decent mileage for a alternator or brake seal to go out. I worked as a tech and I have never seen a car under 120k blow a brake seal (except once, some people never changed their brakes and after 75k miles, the piston was rubbing on the disc to stop). Alternators go but I usually see 200k or at least 175k miles lexuses with 10+years on them before I see the alternator go.

I used to own a Lexus SC400. They had alternator problems too... if they were at least 12 years old. Just like trunk supports, after at least 14 years.

It's a 4 year old car with 68k miles, only 18k of which you've owned it for. That's not good reliability, especially considering an alternator replacement is a major repair.

I own a 2006 Mercedes. I've had it for about 1 year, 10k miles now. It's "Only" been the the shop twice but on a 40k miles vehicle, 2x in 10k miles is a lot. I'm not going to lie to myself, saying how awesome reliability is, german reliability is crap. The dealer is nice to me, but the cars are not build to anywhere the reliability standards of a Lexus or Acura.

I love my car, but damn, I'm not going to lie to myself about it. This car will cost a fortune out of warranty and will be in the shop more than most. That's how german engineering is.

 

[sindows]

Eh cars used to break all the time, it wasn't until the mid 80s, early 90s when cars started to "work" properly. We are just spoiled now.

 

[bigdog1218]

They are making improvements, and they aren't nearly as bad as the fanboys make it out to be. The majority of Audi's lineup is average or above average in reliability, and every company tracking reliability has shown the improvement. The new A4/A5 is a reliable car, but people who buy Acura, Lexus, Inifinity etc don't want to hear that.

 

[zoiks]

Originally posted by: bigdog1218
They are making improvements, and they aren't nearly as bad as the fanboys make it out to be. The majority of Audi's lineup is average or above average in reliability, and every company tracking reliability has shown the improvement. The new A4/A5 is a reliable car, but people who buy Acura, Lexus, Inifinity etc don't want to hear that.

Audi might be getting better (it could only get better since they were crap for the longest time) but frankly the other german brands seem to be getting worse.
I've had a G35 previously that I kept for 3 years and never had a single problem with it. I now have a G37 and it seems bullet proof. Check the g37 forums and see if anyone ever had any electrical or mechanical issues. Very few that I found but I wouldn't expect 100% satisfaction for any vehicle.

 

[Doggiedog]

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: Doggiedog
My new '09 BMW 335i had its high pressure fuel pump and fuel injectors replaced already at 2500 miles. I had an E36 325i and that had a ton of problems. My Infiniti had 2 problems, one with the clutch not returning up and sticking to the floor and the other with the stereo. My Acura MDX had it's tranny replaced, had blown speakers and stereo, and blown lights in the dash. My Lexus GS300 had a blown LCD in the stereo. My Honda Prelude SH would not start up occasionally because of a bad digital key. I would say the European cars I've own have been more problematic.

I hate the term badge whore bc I go by the merits of the car when I purchase. While I would have liked a G37 sedan, they didn't have any in manual when I was looking. Audi didn't have manuals. And Lexus didn't either. I didn't want a FWD or AWD car so that knocked a lot of cars out of the running.

That's a LOT of problems spread over a bunch of different cars.
Are you sure it's not you that is the problem?

How am I the problem?

The 335i is known for defective HPFPs. Go look it up. The MDX, along with TLs and CLs that had Honda's then new 5AT tranny were all recalled. My Prelude had a bad digital key. The GS had a busted LCD which is a very common problem. The Infiniti, I don't know, I drove it normally. The clutch just went bad. Someone mentioned something about a bad master cylinder. The 325i was just a money pit. The car was 10 YO. The AC broke 2x, the radiator, brakes, wiper, lights, stereo, and heater all broke during the time I owned it.

After I drive my 335i to death over the next 10 years, I'm just going to lease again. Only 2500 miles and I've had problems. I'd rather spend a little more each month on leasing and not have to deal with any headaches down the road.

 

[DivideBYZero]

2001 e46 M3, bought in 2006 w/19k on the clock. Currently has 52k on the clock. Major parts replaced:

- Coil packs. Bremi supplied, same issue as VW. Warranty repair.
- One front brake caliper replaced. Warranty repair.
- Rear Springs. Common for them to break. Replacements are updated. Warranty repair.
- Clutch and flywheel. Flywheel was out of balance. Warranty repair.

It's not a small list, I suppose, but still less than my Subaru and very much less than my VW.

The most reliable car out of the factory I've owned so far is a Renault, and their reputation has been dire in the past. It's fun to sneer at people who drive a car you don't like though. Right?

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: mwmorph


Let's put it this way. 68k miles for an alternator failure and brake seal failure is rare. That is bad.

The fact that the 06 330Ci had no problems in 2.5 years of ownership means nothing. 2.5 years is still a new car.

If someone posted Oh no my brake seals and alternator went on a lower mileage car like a Toyota, people would be all over it.

68k miles is not high mileage, it's not even decent mileage for a alternator or brake seal to go out. I worked as a tech and I have never seen a car under 120k blow a brake seal (except once, some people never changed their brakes and after 75k miles, the piston was rubbing on the disc to stop). Alternators go but I usually see 200k or at least 175k miles lexuses with 10+years on them before I see the alternator go.

I used to own a Lexus SC400. They had alternator problems too... if they were at least 12 years old. Just like trunk supports, after at least 14 years.

It's a 4 year old car with 68k miles, only 18k of which you've owned it for. That's not good reliability, especially considering an alternator replacement is a major repair.

I own a 2006 Mercedes. I've had it for about 1 year, 10k miles now. It's "Only" been the the shop twice but on a 40k miles vehicle, 2x in 10k miles is a lot. I'm not going to lie to myself, saying how awesome reliability is, german reliability is crap. The dealer is nice to me, but the cars are not build to anywhere the reliability standards of a Lexus or Acura.

I love my car, but damn, I'm not going to lie to myself about it. This car will cost a fortune out of warranty and will be in the shop more than most. That's how german engineering is.

My subie had a cracked brake caliper seal (dual pistons) around 60k miles. Gasket costed less then 10 bucks and I did it in less than an hour.

 

[imported_Lothar]

This thread does bring about an interesting point though.

I've heard many people(me included😉) brag that their Accord/Civic/Acura/Lexus has 150-200+k miles on it with no problems.
I've never heard anyone make that statement with a BMW or Mercedes.

Why is that?

 

[alphatarget1]

As a side, I was talking to a guy studying industrial management in Germany and he said the Germans are scared of the Japanese, something along the lines of the QC being a lot better than the German manufacturers.

 

[RichUK]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: mwmorph


Let's put it this way. 68k miles for an alternator failure and brake seal failure is rare. That is bad.

The fact that the 06 330Ci had no problems in 2.5 years of ownership means nothing. 2.5 years is still a new car.

If someone posted Oh no my brake seals and alternator went on a lower mileage car like a Toyota, people would be all over it.

68k miles is not high mileage, it's not even decent mileage for a alternator or brake seal to go out. I worked as a tech and I have never seen a car under 120k blow a brake seal (except once, some people never changed their brakes and after 75k miles, the piston was rubbing on the disc to stop). Alternators go but I usually see 200k or at least 175k miles lexuses with 10+years on them before I see the alternator go.

I used to own a Lexus SC400. They had alternator problems too... if they were at least 12 years old. Just like trunk supports, after at least 14 years.

It's a 4 year old car with 68k miles, only 18k of which you've owned it for. That's not good reliability, especially considering an alternator replacement is a major repair.

I own a 2006 Mercedes. I've had it for about 1 year, 10k miles now. It's "Only" been the the shop twice but on a 40k miles vehicle, 2x in 10k miles is a lot. I'm not going to lie to myself, saying how awesome reliability is, german reliability is crap. The dealer is nice to me, but the cars are not build to anywhere the reliability standards of a Lexus or Acura.

I love my car, but damn, I'm not going to lie to myself about it. This car will cost a fortune out of warranty and will be in the shop more than most. That's how german engineering is.

My subie had a cracked brake caliper seal (dual pistons) around 60k miles. Gasket costed less then 10 bucks and I did it in less than an hour.

Yup, the seals are extremely cheap. A friend of mine is a senior tech at my local BMW dealership and replaced both front seals for £70 IIRC (inclusive of parts + new brake fluid).

Took no time at all.

The alternator cost about £550 to replace (parts and labour, done at dealership as you get 1 year?s warranty on the part).

 

[sjwaste]

Originally posted by: RichUK

Yup, the seals are extremely cheap. A friend of mine is a senior tech at my local BMW dealership and replaced both front seals for £70 IIRC (inclusive of parts + new brake fluid).

Took no time at all.

The alternator cost about £550 to replace (parts and labour, done at dealership as you get 1 year?s warranty on the part).

What's the breakout on the parts vs labor on that 550? That's a LOT for an alternator unless they need to pull something else to get to it. One year warranty on the part is nothing to pay a premium on, considering you'll get at least that on any off the shelf part from a supplier.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: sjwaste

Originally posted by: RichUK

Yup, the seals are extremely cheap. A friend of mine is a senior tech at my local BMW dealership and replaced both front seals for £70 IIRC (inclusive of parts + new brake fluid).

Took no time at all.

The alternator cost about £550 to replace (parts and labour, done at dealership as you get 1 year?s warranty on the part).

What's the breakout on the parts vs labor on that 550? That's a LOT for an alternator unless they need to pull something else to get to it. One year warranty on the part is nothing to pay a premium on, considering you'll get at least that on any off the shelf part from a supplier.

Rich, you didn't pay top, but pretty close. You need this forum:

http://www.mtorque.co.uk/ubbth...showflat&Number=711642

Next, you need to know about GSF parts:

http://www.gsfcarparts.com/

Buy there and get fitted at an indy.

 

[RichUK]

Originally posted by: sjwaste

Originally posted by: RichUK

Yup, the seals are extremely cheap. A friend of mine is a senior tech at my local BMW dealership and replaced both front seals for £70 IIRC (inclusive of parts + new brake fluid).

Took no time at all.

The alternator cost about £550 to replace (parts and labour, done at dealership as you get 1 year?s warranty on the part).

What's the breakout on the parts vs labor on that 550? That's a LOT for an alternator unless they need to pull something else to get to it. One year warranty on the part is nothing to pay a premium on, considering you'll get at least that on any off the shelf part from a supplier.

I?d have to look at the receipt, but I believe it was about an hour?s labour on the job.

I got the work done at the dealer mainly so I could keep the receipt to go along with the rest of the car?s extensive service history. Helps resale value in my eyes, otherwise I would have had my friend do the job.

 

[RichUK]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: sjwaste

Originally posted by: RichUK

Yup, the seals are extremely cheap. A friend of mine is a senior tech at my local BMW dealership and replaced both front seals for £70 IIRC (inclusive of parts + new brake fluid).

Took no time at all.

The alternator cost about £550 to replace (parts and labour, done at dealership as you get 1 year?s warranty on the part).

What's the breakout on the parts vs labor on that 550? That's a LOT for an alternator unless they need to pull something else to get to it. One year warranty on the part is nothing to pay a premium on, considering you'll get at least that on any off the shelf part from a supplier.

Rich, you didn't pay top, but pretty close. You need this forum:

http://www.mtorque.co.uk/ubbth...showflat&Number=711642

Next, you need to know about GSF parts:

http://www.gsfcarparts.com/

Buy there and get fitted at an indy.

Cheers, mate. That will definitely come in handy in the future. :thumbsup:

 

[Muadib]

Originally posted by: Lothar
This thread does bring about an interesting point though.

I've heard many people(me included😉) brag that their Accord/Civic/Acura/Lexus has 150-200+k miles on it with no problems.
I've never heard anyone make that statement with a BMW or Mercedes.

Why is that?

Because most of them lease, and don't keep them that long. I'm on my third TL in 10 years, and the only problem I've had was the sub in the 04 rattled, and the bluetooth didn't work right with my old SE 710 phone. It turned out that the bluetooh issue was the phone, but they replaced the unit anyway.

I considered the diesel 3 series, but then remembered that that everyone I knew with a bimmer had issues.

Originally posted by: bigdog1218
They are making improvements, and they aren't nearly as bad as the fanboys make it out to be. The majority of Audi's lineup is average or above average in reliability, and every company tracking reliability has shown the improvement. The new A4/A5 is a reliable car, but people who buy Acura, Lexus, Inifinity etc don't want to hear that.

What??? Where are you getting this??? Why are they always near the bottom of the JD Powers quality study then?

 

[drnickriviera]

Originally posted by: Lothar
This thread does bring about an interesting point though.

I've heard many people(me included😉) brag that their Accord/Civic/Acura/Lexus has 150-200+k miles on it with no problems.
I've never heard anyone make that statement with a BMW or Mercedes.

Why is that?

83' Merc 240D, sold with 365k miles and still running strong 🙂

My brother said he read an article about the new E-class. Mercedes said they are going back to the way they used to make cars. The best cars money could buy. I'll believe it when I see it, but if they do, that would sway me back to MB again.

I think in the 90's Mercedes started building cars to a price point. Heck my 85' 300D was around $30k back then. That would be nearly $60k in todays dollars

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: zerocool84

Originally posted by: RichUK

Most people who knock the reliability of a BMW have never even owned one. 😕

The same type of people who knock on American reliability. It's a sterotype.

Have you owned an American-made sedan manufactured b/w 1980-2000?

All the ones that I've come across sucked horse-shit, whichever spoiled the taste for me. Regardless of whatever reputation they have garnered very recently, I have a longer history of crap associated with them. /shrug.


and is crappy reliability true with most Audis? I've always wanted one... 🙁