How can we determine whether a conservative or a progressive society is better?

[boomerang]

Makes me wonder why those Eastern European nations and the republics in the Soviet Union shed their progressive govts and the safety nets they provided.

Cease wondering and just know that they made a huge mistake. Progressivism is the embrace of old, failed policies that didn't work before. But progz think they're new because they've been taught that they're very, very smart and progressivism is what very smart people embrace.

Marxists used to call themselves Marxists until the label got a bad rap. So now they call themselves Progressives! Who doesn't like progress? Great PR move. But failed policies are failed policies. Hard to beat that rap.

 

[EagleKeeper]

How does an Opinion piece equate to evidence?

I am sure that another opinion piece could be found to support anyone's stance

 

[Matt1970]

Makes me wonder why those Eastern European nations and the republics in the Soviet Union shed their progressive govts and the safety nets they provided.

Hey now, according to the OP-ED piece the "nanny state," works, therefore in Moonbeam's eyes that is science.

 

[Moonbeam]

From the link: We are accustomed to thinking of the argument between left and right as an ideological or philosophical debate, so it has no "correct" answer. But there is an answer: We are entirely capable of knowing what policies best contribute to people leading positive and rewarding lives.

In recent decades, social scientists have been studying human happiness in the same way we study any other human attribute. Vast new multidisciplinary research has emerged around the proposition that it is possible to empirically measure the extent to which people view their lives as satisfying.





Benjamin Radcliff

So what conditions best promote more rewarding lives?

The answer is simple and unequivocal: Happier people live in countries with a generous social safety net, or, more generally, countries whose governments "tax and spend" at higher rates, reflecting the greater range of services and protections offered by the state. (These findings come from analysis of data from the World Values Surveys for the 21 Western industrial democracies from 1981 to 2007 for my book "The Political Economy of Human Happiness." Similar findings have been reported in peer-reviewed journals like "Social Research" and the "Social Indicators Research.")
----------
Simple, unequivocal and peer-review, but what we get in the thread is garbage vomited by miserable conservatives. When you remove the bars of a cage a wild animal has paced up and down in, he continues in his well worn grove. Once the ego falls in love with a miserable state and assigns it pride and dignity, a person can walk around proud as punch he has shit all over his face.

 

[boomerang]

At what point does a government transition from progressive to totalitarian socialist? I'm assuming it's not when government decides what size soft drink you may order or reads your private email, as our government does those things and this is yet another "America is bad because it's too conservative" thread. Or when it dictates what you may name your child or whether one can criticize the Religion of Peace, as those are things regularly done in these progressive Eurotopias.

The transition occurs when schoolchildren are shown videos in which celebrities pledge their devotion to their leader. When schoolchildren are taught to sing the praises of their leader at the start of the school day. When children are taught that their parents don't know things like they do and that they need to not listen to their parents. The transition occurs when those children grow into young adults and are willing to don a uniform, pledge allegiance to their leader and go out into their communities turning people into the government for imagined trespasses. When there is a civilian national security force just as well equipped as the military that will do what is asked by their provider.

But we have guns. Lot's of guns. It won't happen while we still have those.

 

[Angry Irishman]

Detroit is a good example.

 

[thraashman]

I think there is a rock solid way to determine the correct answer to this. Find a ground upon which Anarchist and Incorruptible agree on, then do the opposite.

 

[boomerang]

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

Quit trying to change us. Go elsewhere to attain the happiness you seek.

We're tired of listening to the same shit being regurgitated from you on a continual basis. Make yourself happy and seek out a nation that fits your desired lifestyle. Life is short. Why wouldn't you seek out nirvana as soon as possible? It's only logical. Quit thinking using emotions.

 

[Matt1970]

Just look how happy these people are.

 

[Moonbeam]

How does an Opinion piece equate to evidence?

I am sure that another opinion piece could be found to support anyone's stance

Doesn't a review of a scientific study appearing in an editorial section of a news source always get labeled opinion. Isn't the editorial section of a news organization the opinion section? I think a report on the idea that the earth goes around the sun, reported in an editorial section of a news organization would be an opinion piece. I could be wrong. What is your opinion?

It is refreshing, from where I look at things, to see folk struggling to turn what is peer-reviewed fact into opinion. But then again, as a student of the conservative mind and it's well known defects, one can anticipate that when opinion is finally established as fact, some new rationalization as to why fact can't be fact arises to take its place. The conservative brain defect is an endless ability to rationalize away what the conservative doesn't want to believe. This is what makes conservative and bigot one and the same thing.

 

[HumblePie]

Technically, a society that needed no outside governance would be the "best" but such a utopia would never exist. So fantasizing about it equals nothing but mental masturbation.

 

[woolfe9998]

Oh great, more "scientific evidence" that "conservatives R bad".

The author equates "happiness" to "rewarding". You can feed a kid chocolate all day and make him happy, he's not going to be well rewarded for it. You can give an adult free everything and make said adult very happy, whether that's a "rewarding" life is another question.

In fact, the author mentions exactly that point:


Even if liberals could re-make the Garden of Eden, I wouldn't want to live there. Happiness should be more earned than provided, there is no "right to be happy".

I couldn't disagree more. You're concerned with the abstractions of what you think people do and do not have "right" to. I for one would rather live in a place where people are subjectively happy then live in a miserable shit hole just so that I can say, "well gee, at least the few people here who aren't miserable have 'earned' it." This is where material reality and abstract moralizing do not mesh.

That said, it is pointless to discuss research without fully understanding its methodology. Social scientific research is fraught with great difficulties, not least of which is controlling for other variables. For example, assuming for the sake of argument that people are "happier" in societies with robust social safety nets, are they happier because of the safety nets, or do people who are happy for a different reason tend to support and bring about the safety nets? Any attempt to intelligently address this kind of research based on an op-ed piece will go nowhere.

 

[Matt1970]

Doesn't a review of a scientific study appearing in an editorial section of a news source always get labeled opinion. Isn't the editorial section of a news organization the opinion section? I think a report on the idea that the earth goes around the sun, reported in an editorial section of a news organization would be an opinion piece. I could be wrong. What is your opinion?

It is refreshing, from where I look at things, to see folk struggling to turn what is peer-reviewed fact into opinion. But then again, as a student of the conservative mind and it's well known defects, one can anticipate that when opinion is finally established as fact, some new rationalization as to why fact can't be fact arises to take its place. The conservative brain defect is an endless ability to rationalize away what the conservative doesn't want to believe. This is what makes conservative and bigot one and the same thing.

Here's a similiar study.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/09/business/earth-institute-world-happiness-rankings/index.html

Wow, a country where half the population is doing everything they can to get to the US ranks higher than the US in happiness. Ya, that's science.

 

[nehalem256]

Here's a similiar study.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/09/business/earth-institute-world-happiness-rankings/index.html

Wow, a country where half the population is doing everything they can to get to the US ranks higher than the US in happiness. Ya, that's science.

Also apparently the UAE.

Clearly a haven of progressivism

 

[Smoblikat]

Mooning in a postbeam thread.

I guarentee both societies would be far more miserable than a libertarian one (somalia is anacrhist, not libertarian.

 

[Moonbeam]

Quit trying to change us. Go elsewhere to attain the happiness you seek.

We're tired of listening to the same shit being regurgitated from you on a continual basis. Make yourself happy and seek out a nation that fits your desired lifestyle. Life is short. Why wouldn't you seek out nirvana as soon as possible? It's only logical. Quit thinking using emotions.

No no no no you don't. I have as much right to try to make you happy as you do to try to make me miserable. That's what real happiness is, me doing all I can to make you happy. Do you seriously think the fact that you want to be miserable is going to stop me. Do you seriously think I would let your stupidity blind me? Read the link. It says right in it that conservatives are happier in a progressive society. Even miserable fucks like you report being be better off. Them's the facts. You deny them but not me. And I gotta think about your kids. Why should they be fated to a more miserable life because of your imbecility?

 

[Moonbeam]

Mooning in a postbeam thread.

I guarentee both societies would be far more miserable than a libertarian one (somalia is anacrhist, not libertarian.

You guarantee? That's a scream. How does the existence of your personal opinion guarantee anything. Show me your scientific proof if you can find and measure a libertarian society somewhere. Opinions are a dime a dozen.

 

[boomerang]

No no no no you don't. I have as much right to try to make you happy as you do to try to make me miserable. That's what real happiness is, me doing all I can to make you happy. Do you seriously think the fact that you want to be miserable is going to stop me. Do you seriously think I would let your stupidity blind me? Read the link. It says right in it that conservatives are happier in a progressive society. Even miserable fucks like you report being be better off. Them's the facts. You deny them but not me. And I gotta think about your kids. Why should they be fated to a more miserable life because of your imbecility?

You're a miserable failure because you have failed to make me happy. Try harder and really give it all you've got. I'm not going to be satisfied until you make me happy. On a related note, do you do yard work?

 

[Moonbeam]

Get rid of any and all religion and watch how the society develops. That's at least a good start.

Of course the problem here is that you are speaking only from your imagination. You have no idea what a society devoid or religion would look like because none in the historical era has ever existed. You don't know if it's even possible much less what it would look like. You simply have a beef against religion and an agenda you want to promote it seems to me. I don't mind but you have in my opinion simply avoided the issue I wanted to make.

 

[BoberFett]

I couldn't disagree more. You're concerned with the abstractions of what you think people do and do not have "right" to. I for one would rather live in a place where people are subjectively happy then live in a miserable shit hole just so that I can say, "well gee, at least the few people here who aren't miserable have 'earned' it." This is where material reality and abstract moralizing do not mesh.

That said, it is pointless to discuss research without fully understanding its methodology. Social scientific research is fraught with great difficulties, not least of which is controlling for other variables. For example, assuming for the sake of argument that people are "happier" in societies with robust social safety nets, are they happier because of the safety nets, or do people who are happy for a different reason tend to support and bring about the safety nets? Any attempt to intelligently address this kind of research based on an op-ed piece will go nowhere.

If safety nets make people happy, then ghettos are the happiest places on Earth.

 

[BoberFett]

I bet North Koreans are all extremely happy. Just ask them.

 

[Lithium381]

Why is it assumed that conservatives want 0 safety net and progressives want a 100% safety net. It's quite polarizing. I don't see it as black and white like that. Offering a hand up out of a bad situation is one thing. Making it a lifestyle is another . . .

 

[Moonbeam]

You're a miserable failure because you have failed to make me happy. Try harder and really give it all you've got. I'm not going to be satisfied until you make me happy. On a related note, do you do yard work?

Since the important point of your post was the question of whether I do yard work, the answer is that I do much of my own. I called some people occasionally to cut and shape my trees. I'm thinking about putting a computer room forty feet up or so in three of them.

By the way, I can't make you happy. Only you can do that. My job is to show you how miserable you are now to inspire you to get busy. The trick, of course, is to make what is obvious to me visible to you.

 

[Thebobo]

We need a nice mix imo.

 

[JulesMaximus]

At least they don't continually thump their chests about how open-minded they are while calling anyone who disagrees with them a bigot.

I'd be happy with somewhere in the middle but nobody wants to compromise these days. Talk about chest thumping... Christ, it's a miracle ANYTHING gets done. It will be interesting to see how this budget debacle plays out because I don't see that conservatives have a whole lot of public support for this latest stunt of theirs.

I'd much rather live someplace like Norway than the U.S. these days.