How can we change our country?

[Moonbeam]

So we have a system and a set of consequences that flow from it.

We are a democracy but money is free speech so money determines who gets elected and reelected and who laws are made to protect.

And the law makers will not change the law when it benefits them and the change works against them.

And we can't change that money is speech because the courts have so ruled and we aren't going to get rid of money any time soon, other, of course, than all the money going poof in the current economic crisis, either.

So what are we to do beside rage?

We can vote incumbents out but we always like our incumbent and hate everybody elses' so that won't work.

Or we can vote third party but that takes money, etc., and never works either.

We can't change the law, we can't change the parties and we can't get a different one in there.

We are in a real mess it seems, no?

So how do we change our country?

It seems to me we need to find a way and one way to find a way, it seems to me, is to talk about it. When people come to a consensus and act on it change can occur, or no?

And consensus is what we agree on.

What do we agree on and how can we act on it? How do we get our will done in Congress as it is in our hearts and minds?

What do we agree on?

 

[OrByte]

start with an incumbent war.

throw all of them out.

Just go straight down the ticket and vote the other guy in.

Then when we get that done (locally and nationally but particularly locally)

we run as fast as we can with campaign finance, term limit, and lobby reform.

It HAS to start with an incumbent war.

But the public is too entrenched and unwilling to draw into that consensus.

its sickening and disheartening.

 

[bdude]

Bill Moyers interview w/ Andrew Bacevich about his book "The Limits of Power"

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09262008/watch.html

 

[bamacre]

I don't care what other people do, I'm voting 3rd party. They may never win, but we'll never see real change through the two major parties.

This country won't change until the country goes bankrupt and erupts in violence. And it'll be the change of our nightmares.

 

[bdude]

Just to add,

what I found most telling is that

"The American Way of Life is NOT Negotiable"

George HW Bush said that.

His predecessor Reagan, and his successors have all agreed with this premise.

Whether they be Democrat or Republican.

What is the American way of life?

Easily acquired consumer goods and the best professional army in the world.

 

[SP33Demon]

The first step in real change is for Congress to not proceed with a bailout. You'll really see some change then.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: OrByte
start with an incumbent war.

throw all of them out.

Just go straight down the ticket and vote the other guy in.

Then when we get that done (locally and nationally but particularly locally)

we run as fast as we can with campaign finance, term limit, and lobby reform.

It HAS to start with an incumbent war.

But the public is too entrenched and unwilling to draw into that consensus.

its sickening and disheartening.

:thumbsup:

Not only that more than 40% of the population needs to vote.

 

[KGB]

One thing I would immediately change is to get mandatory civics classes in all schools.

This would take a while to bear fruit but it needs to start now.

We need to change from a country of "consumers" into a country of citizens.

Until that happens, all efforts of change will be merely temporary, stop-gap measures.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: OrByte
start with an incumbent war.

throw all of them out.

Just go straight down the ticket and vote the other guy in.

Then when we get that done (locally and nationally but particularly locally)

we run as fast as we can with campaign finance, term limit, and lobby reform.

It HAS to start with an incumbent war.

But the public is too entrenched and unwilling to draw into that consensus.

its sickening and disheartening.

:thumbsup:

Not only that more than 40% of the population needs to vote.

lol you want MORE people to vote?

 

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: bamacre
I don't care what other people do, I'm voting 3rd party. They may never win, but we'll never see real change through the two major parties.

This country won't change until the country goes bankrupt and erupts in violence. And it'll be the change of our nightmares.

I'm throwing the same Hail Mary.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: OrByte
start with an incumbent war.

throw all of them out.

Just go straight down the ticket and vote the other guy in.

Then when we get that done (locally and nationally but particularly locally)

we run as fast as we can with campaign finance, term limit, and lobby reform.

It HAS to start with an incumbent war.

But the public is too entrenched and unwilling to draw into that consensus.

its sickening and disheartening.

Exactly, so is it not immediately obvious this is not a functional solution and we have to go elsewhere. And suppose we do vote them all out and vote in good people? Are we going to then vote them out too? I would say, then, do we agree we need to get rid of the people we have? If so then how do we make that thinking more possible. How do we use the power of the vote to change when we keep voting the same. The congress has gerrymandered their seats to make them safe. We need competitive seats but how do we get that? The Politicians aren't going to change what is in their advantage, right?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: bamacre
I don't care what other people do, I'm voting 3rd party. They may never win, but we'll never see real change through the two major parties.

This country won't change until the country goes bankrupt and erupts in violence. And it'll be the change of our nightmares.

You have given up intellectually, but you haven't given up emotionally. You are mad. Anger is blinding. Is there nothing else you can think of but an unconscious hope for chaos?

 

[bamacre]

We cannot change government via government. It is the people who need to change, and the government would quickly follow. How to change the people is the question.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: bamacre
I don't care what other people do, I'm voting 3rd party. They may never win, but we'll never see real change through the two major parties.

This country won't change until the country goes bankrupt and erupts in violence. And it'll be the change of our nightmares.

You have given up intellectually, but you haven't given up emotionally. You are mad. Anger is blinding. Is there nothing else you can think of but an unconscious hope for chaos?

Does change come via any other means? Isn't change what you're hoping for? Surely you are not naive enough to think Obama will bring the change we actually need.

The people of this country can only change when they have died like you did long ago. In an effort to destroy themselves, they'll bring the rest of the country down with them. Misery loves company. If I am gonna be poor, you damn well will be too.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: OrByte
start with an incumbent war.

throw all of them out.

Just go straight down the ticket and vote the other guy in.

Then when we get that done (locally and nationally but particularly locally)

we run as fast as we can with campaign finance, term limit, and lobby reform.

It HAS to start with an incumbent war.

But the public is too entrenched and unwilling to draw into that consensus.

its sickening and disheartening.

Exactly, so is it not immediately obvious this is not a functional solution and we have to go elsewhere. And suppose we do vote them all out and vote in good people? Are we going to then vote them out too? I would say, then, do we agree we need to get rid of the people we have? If so then how do we make that thinking more possible. How do we use the power of the vote to change when we keep voting the same. The congress has gerrymandered their seats to make them safe. We need competitive seats but how do we get that? The Politicians aren't going to change what is in their advantage, right?

We only have to vote in the people willing to laydown the ground work for a new phase of government service. Its up to the voters to take back the seats (gerrymandering) from incumbent politicians. Hell Im even willing to blur party lines to get the guy or gal into office that is going to address campaign finance reform (including gerrymandering) lobby reform, and term limits. I think there are still honest enough people that will step in and get that job done whether D or R.

Back to gerrymandering because it is a HUGE obstacle and Im glad you brought it up. Take Prop 8 here in California. Who and where did the motivation come to introduce Prop 8 as a ballot initiative? The people did, along with various support groups/churches with the $$ for backing.

Prop 8 was introduced as a ballot measure based upon a grassroots movement. My point is, people are still out there that care enough to make movements such as Prop 8 happen.

Now we just have to get people to care enough about campaign finance reform, lobby reform, gerrymandering (Governator tried before) and term limits. I'd start with gerrymandering. Go back to Arnolds proposal back in 2004 (or was it 2006?) and start from there. take back these districts...get these people out of office. Then go from there.

If we put as much effort into gerrymandering that we did into Prop 8 we might see something happen.

btw- I am not endorsing or voting yes on prop 8. Just using its mere existance as an example that people can still get things done, even in California.

 

[Jaskalas]

Both major parties are the incumbent, voting for either is throwing your vote away and ensures that there is no change.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

So how do we change our country?

You know the answer smart guy.

The only answer is revolution.

History dictates it.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: KGBMAN
One thing I would immediately change is to get mandatory civics classes in all schools.

This would take a while to bear fruit but it needs to start now.

We need to change from a country of "consumers" into a country of citizens.

Until that happens, all efforts of change will be merely temporary, stop-gap measures.

I agree with this.

Originally posted by: JS80
lol you want MORE people to vote?

Of course.

"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power."
-- Thomas Jefferson, 1820

And this is our country's biggest problem IMO. The people have the power to vote, but are inadequately informed to make the correct decisions.

 

[Atreus21]

Nothing will change overnight, Moonbeam. The only way to change things immediately is war. The only way to really and truly change things is Time.

 

[Atreus21]

Nothing will change overnight, Moonbeam. The only way to change things immediately is war. The only way to really and truly change things is Time.

 

[Atreus21]

Nothing will change overnight, Moonbeam. The only way to change things immediately is war. The only way to really and truly change things is Time.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: bamacre
I don't care what other people do, I'm voting 3rd party. They may never win, but we'll never see real change through the two major parties.

This country won't change until the country goes bankrupt and erupts in violence. And it'll be the change of our nightmares.

You have given up intellectually, but you haven't given up emotionally. You are mad. Anger is blinding. Is there nothing else you can think of but an unconscious hope for chaos?

Does change come via any other means? Isn't change what you're hoping for? Surely you are not naive enough to think Obama will bring the change we actually need.

The people of this country can only change when they have died like you did long ago. In an effort to destroy themselves, they'll bring the rest of the country down with them. Misery loves company. If I am gonna be poor, you damn well will be too.

Misery does love company. I have told you why. Self haters hate the idea anybody could have real self respect. Does that change this same attitude in you. Do you see your self hate and do you know how to free yourself of it? We have to change ourselves, but we can't see either the need or muster the will to do it. So what else is there we can do? Does it help at all to know what the real problem is, that it is our own self hate, incurable so far, but does seeing it help at all.

If I know I am my own enemy can I stay with that and not project it out on others, or accept that we will, but not add into that our belief. Can we know out hate of others is out hate of ourself and forgive them so we can forgive ourself?

Is knowledge power?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

So how do we change our country?

You know the answer smart guy.

The only answer is revolution.

History dictates it.

Yes, Jihad is the only revolution there is. All other revolution is killing yourself out there, seeing your own evil in others.

 

[Moonbeam]

So we seem to agree that a better informed public is important. That would imply better schooling, I guess, as well as better public information.

Does anybody disagree? I think the problem will come with what information the public should have, no? Christian of secular schools, sex ed, evolution, etc.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: bdude
Bill Moyers interview w/ Andrew Bacevich about his book "The Limits of Power"

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09262008/watch.html

That was something I think every American should be exposed to. But he says 90% of Americans disagree with it. How do you get another 41% to save the nation?