How can we bet against NYC's housing market?

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
NYC blew up in housing like the rest of the country to truly batsh*t crazy levels during the boom. It has mostly withstood the housing deflation, at least far more than it ought to. Now with wallstreet on its knees and that city in a financial crisis itself, I see nothing propping it up. It has to go down. The days of $1000 per square foot apartments have to be on their way out.
 

BigDH01

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2005
1,631
88
91
I think NYC real estate was propped up by the weak dollar. Foreign wealth could still afford the crazy prices. If the dollar continues to increase in value, then I would expect a decline. If it decreases, I would expect housing prices to fall somewhat but remain sticky.
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
I think all those NYC coops required cash purchases, IIRC.

May go down because decreasing demand from Wall Street, but there are always foreigners if USD gets really weak.

 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Well, you make a derivative with NYC's housing as the underlying asset, then you find the appropriate counterparty and off you go. Oh, and don't forget to leverage yourself at least 20:1.

What could possibly go wrong?
 

yowolabi

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2001
4,183
2
81
I think that there's enough people, specifically rich people, who want a place in NYC that it won't fall too much. Demand is still high and people can still afford the prices.

That may change in the future, but I don't think it's changed yet.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: jonks
Outer boroughs, maybe, but not in Manhattan. Prices may decline but you aren't likely to see any foreclosure boom in Manhattan. These weren't poor people buying these apartments with subprime loans.

http://images.nymag.com/news/f...s_foreclosures_560.gif

I've actually read something related to that about NYC just this week - there are a lot of people we'd consider "rich" trying to get out of their housing co-ops because of their high cost and their newfound status as the unemployed.

Turmoil threatens Big Apple's property markets

The financial services industry makes up nearly a third of all income in the city and 12 percent of its employment. Through August, the sector shed almost 103,000 workers worldwide, according to Challenger, Gray & Christmas. That total doesn't include the likely rounds of layoffs coming from investment banks Merrill Lynch and Lehman Brothers.

...

The vacancy rate for Manhattan commercial real estate hit a two-year high of 7.4 percent in the third quarter, up 30 percent from the year-ago period, according to a report last week by Cushman & Wakefield. The firm predicted the vacancy rate could rise as high as 9 percent to 10 percent by the first quarter of next year.

August leasing activity in the Midtown area trailed the five-year monthly average by 41 percent, and the Downtown area, by 71 percent, according to CB Richard Ellis. Average asking rents are starting to fall in both areas, and vacancy rates are inching higher. Landlords are offering more concessions to appease tenants.

"I did hear of a transaction pending where the landlord dropped the rent by $10 per square foot on a $100-plus per-square-foot rent to entice the tenant to stay," said Steve Siegel, chairman of global brokerage for CB Richard Ellis.

Rents, which have doubled since 2003, could lose as much as 23 percent, Gosin predicts, but believes the city's market is resilient and will bounce back better than expected.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
I don't care if it's only rich who live there. They are now less rich. If a swatch of people were worth a ton of money a year ago and are now worth much less plus many of them have lost their jobs, demand is down any way you slice that pie. NYC housing WILL go down. That market is not immune to this.
 

Nocturnal

Lifer
Jan 8, 2002
18,927
0
76
Originally posted by: jonks
Outer boroughs, maybe, but not in Manhattan. Prices may decline but you aren't likely to see any foreclosure boom in Manhattan. These weren't poor people buying these apartments with subprime loans.

http://images.nymag.com/news/f...s_foreclosures_560.gif

Well certaintly with the stock market crashing, you don't think it's possible that these people who were living there or renting several houses at once for whatever extravagant reasons are now losing money and will be forced to sell or foreclose? I can see that possibly happening.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
How do you 'take advantage' of it? Main way I know would be 'buy low', if you think it'll go back up.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
96
86
The Chicago mercantile exchange sells real estate futures for various cities, you could try and short nyc.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
Originally posted by: jonks
Outer boroughs, maybe, but not in Manhattan. Prices may decline but you aren't likely to see any foreclosure boom in Manhattan. These weren't poor people buying these apartments with subprime loans.

http://images.nymag.com/news/f...s_foreclosures_560.gif

This. Even to rent anything you can actually walk around in is something for upper middle class-upper class. Sure you can find a closet in some apartment for $1200 a month but why?

edit:
Lol maybe I should read the entire thread but I still think Manhattan isn't a place that is going to be affected badly for long. Manhattan is the playground for the rich and there are always going to be rich.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
NYC has ALWAYS been expensive. For that reason, prices did not rise as fast as in other parts of the country. Similarily, it won't fall as fast.
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,553
2
76
Originally posted by: BigDH01
I think NYC real estate was propped up by the weak dollar. Foreign wealth could still afford the crazy prices. If the dollar continues to increase in value, then I would expect a decline. If it decreases, I would expect housing prices to fall somewhat but remain sticky.

Interesting point.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
The Chicago mercantile exchange sells real estate futures for various cities, you could try and short nyc.

Yup, and UBS has OTC contracts to short housing. However, I doubt you can make money on it, everything's probably already priced in.

My boss bought a house a year and a half ago and hedged it with a UBS short contract. His house value went down by $300k and he made $500k off the contract.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Rental and ownership prices are plummeting in the city. There's so much supply still coming on the market that they cannot possibly cope with everything. Lots of highrise developments in the low 60's (Trump mega-development plus other high rises). You're already seeing the effects in the Peter Cooper/Stuyvesant area, they might even default on that loan.

NYC is going to take a kick to the nuts and it's going to be very hard and very swift.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
96
86
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Rental and ownership prices are plummeting in the city. There's so much supply still coming on the market that they cannot possibly cope with everything. Lots of highrise developments in the low 60's (Trump mega-development plus other high rises). You're already seeing the effects in the Peter Cooper/Stuyvesant area, they might even default on that loan.

NYC is going to take a kick to the nuts and it's going to be very hard and very swift.

Yep, the same people who think NY prices arent going to fall were the same peoplewho years ago were telling me that its different in San Diego/Orange County/Sacramento/ San Francisco/Miami/Phoenix/Las Vegas/Seattle/Portland/Chicago/Charlotte/etc....

All those suckers were wrong