How can there be any doubt that we're at war with China?

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
65,756
14,172
146
http://www.economist.com/blogs/analects/2013/02/chinese-cyber-attacks

AN AMERICAN information-security firm has identified a secretive Chinese military unit as the likely source of hacking attacks against more than a hundred companies around the world. In a report made public on Tuesday, the firm, Mandiant, based in Alexandria, Virginia, said it could now back up suspicions it first reported in more qualified form in 2010.

The firm had said then the Chinese government may have authorised the hacking activity it had traced to China, but that there was “no way to determine the extent” of official involvement. In its new report, Mandiant upgrades its assessment. “The details we have analysed during hundreds of investigations convince us that the groups conducting these activities are based primarily in China and that the Chinese government is aware of them,” the report said.

China’s government has denied the allegations. Hong Lei, a spokesman for China’s foreign ministry, said on February 19th that China has itself been a victim of cyber-attacks, and that it enforces laws that ban such activity. “Groundless criticism is irresponsible and unprofessional, and it will not help to solve the problem," he said of the Mandiant report.

According to the report, a Shanghai-based unit of the People’s Liberation Army General Staff Department, known as Unit 61398, is staffed by hundreds and possibly thousands of people specially trained in network security, digital signal processing, covert communications and English linguistics. The unit’s 12-storey building (pictured above) has been equipped with special fibre-optic communications infrastructure “in the name of national defence”.

Mandiant said that since 2006, it has observed attacks from this unit against at least 141 companies spanning 20 major industries, including four of the seven strategic emerging industries that China has identified in its current five-year plan.

The New York Times, which hired Mandiant to investigate China-based cyber-attacks against its news operations, was the first to report on the firm’s findings. Mandiant concluded that the attacks against the newspaper had come from a different Chinese source.

In the case of the attacks described in the new report, Mandiant said it could not prove that the attacks came from within the military building it identified. But it concluded that this was the most plausible explanation for its findings. “Either they are coming from inside Unit 61398, or the people who run the most-controlled, most-monitored Internet networks in the world are clueless about thousands of people generating attacks from this one neighbourhood,” Kevin Mandia, the founder and chief executive of the company told the paper.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2013/02/chinese-cyber-attacks

ON FEBRUARY 19th Mandiant, a security firm, released a report alleging that hackers from a Chinese military outfit known as Unit 61398 were probably behind attacks against more than a hundred companies and government agencies around the world. Without delving into the geopolitics of the the incident, involvement in which the Chinese authorities vehemently deny (and which we write about here), Babbage decided to examine what is known about the hackers' methods.

In fact, Mandiant's detailed account of a group it dubs APT1 (after the term Advanced Persistent Threat) will not strike internet-security wonks as particularly Earth-shattering. It reveals the use of well-known techniques coupled with publicly available software—though some proprietary software, apparently perfected over many years, was also used. What has turned heads is the duration of the attacks and the range of the group's "ecosystem" of remote-control software. This combination allowed the hackers to siphon terabytes, or trillions of bytes, of data from their victims.

In many ways, the attacks resembled those criminal groups and spammers deploy against individuals and businesses. A "spearphishing" e-mail is sent, which attempts to get members of an organisation to open an attachment that appears to originate from a colleague or business partner, and contains some typical business data. Rather than a file, though, the attachment is a piece of malware. When opened, it exploits system flaws to install backdoor access to the computer. This allows remote command-and-control servers anywhere on the internet to install additional software, capture keystrokes and images on the screen, and ferret around the local network.

Mandiant says the hackers sometimes used malicious remote-access toolkits readily available on the "dark side" of the internet (if not through your average Google search). But mostly they either developed or acquired at least 42 "families" of proprietary remote-access tools. Some have dates imprinted in them which indicate they were initially programmed as early as 2004, with updates added over the subsequent six years. The attacks, in other words, were carefully planned and premeditated.

To fool firewalls and other software, some remote-control malware mimicked traffic patterns of legitimate internet services, like the Jabber/XMPP chat system used by Google and Facebook, among others. This allowed them to send information to and from the infected machines without raising suspicions. A lot of the insidious traffic was encrypted, but this too is commonplace for many websites and services, including Twitter and standard e-mail.

APT1 tried hard to retrieve password-related information, often using common cracking tools. Before being stored a password is usually fed into an algorithm called a hash function. This converts it into an obscure string of symbols, or a "hash", that offers no clue as to the original input. The function is irreversible, so you cannot work back from a hash to the password. You can, however, run different words through a hash function and compare the resulting hash with the one stored. Many such "brute-force" attacks use large dictionaries of common and less common passwords. As a number of companies discovered last year, poor passwords make for easy pickings. Some clever tools actually let an attacker log into a system using the encrypted form of a password, dispensing with the need to crack it.

There is also evidence of hackers gleaning network information in order to make connections within a network and infect more machines. Some of the backdoors captured credentials for virtual private networks (VPNs), which allow direct remote access to a network without having to rely on a single compromised computer. Once in, the eavesdroppers used e-mail-extraction tools, which Mandiant says are unique to the group, to pull messages or attachments of interest from a user's inbox, both current and archived. Many of these exploits remain in place, sometimes in multiple forms in case one is found and removed. Hackers stuffed any files deemed of interest into compressed archive formats and added password protection before whisking them away.

For all their sophistication, however, the hackers could display incredible insouciance. For example, APT1 registered domain names for some of its systems and used either a Shanghai mailing address or included an e-mail address tracked via a simple Google search to a Shanghai-based organisation. Remote-access sessions using a Microsoft tool nearly always originated from hacker machines using the simplified Chinese keyboard layout. Backdoor software included "path" information, revealing details about folder organisation on programmers' computers, as well as the date software was written.

Most absurdly, perhaps, some hackers used the remote sessions on compromised machines to access their personal Facebook, Twitter or Gmail accounts. Among others, Mandiant has fingered a certain Wang Dong, who uses the handle Ugly Gorilla and who registered one of the command-and-control domains. It also included a screen shot of a Gmail inbox of another hacker. Mandiant is bracing for reprisals.


No, it's not a shooting war...yet...but it's an economic war. They've been our enemies since the Korean War, Vietnam War, and continue to be our enemies today. Stealing, hacking, copyright infringements, outright copying of goods and products...plus currency manipulation.


The US of A should simply stop ALL imports from China until they adhere to the laws of civilized nations...Would that hurt the US of A in the short term? Yes...as people have to find other sources for their cheap goods...but that may also be a boon for workers in the US of A as companies start factories here to meet the demand for goods...OR, for other countries as the companies shift production to those countries to take advantage of their cheap labor.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Hmm - Maybe Republicans should get on board with Obama on this issue (he talked about it in his SotU Address)...http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/t...der-better-protection-cyber-attacks-1C8349540

the government does not know how to keep economic info secret.

Even in DOD bidding; information gets leaked depending on what the benefit is; to the government or a favored bidder. Unless caught and exposed; the person getting the advantage does not complain. when it happens, the consequences are minor compared to the contract.

So given that attitude; what company would want to take a chance in allowing proprietary info being handed over to an agency for compilation and evaluation.

Without the proper safeguards, the Senate was right in shutting down that legislation.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
Good, maybe this will piss Americans off enough for them to stop buying their crap and we can start building stuff here again.
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,699
60
91
Is it ALL of china though? I'm sure there's some pretty rigid nationals in the military that have the power to do something like this without it going to the top. TMU, there's a lot of parts of the Chinese government that aren't all on the same page. For all we know, now that this story has broke, higher ups in the chinese government are equally upset.

who knows. I just don't think 'all of china' is out to get us or anything.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
No, it's not a shooting war...yet...but it's an economic war. They've been our enemies since the Korean War, Vietnam War, and continue to be our enemies today. Stealing, hacking, copyright infringements, outright copying of goods and products...plus currency manipulation.

You do not attack your enemy while they are strong, you wait until the enemy is weak, then you attack.

China is waiting until the U.S. is very weak, then they may strike.

Our steel mills are gone, we can not build our own computers, few of our engine and car parts are made in the USA. There is no way we can sustain a long term war with China. Once a couple of aircraft are destroyed, we have no way to replace them.

We only have a couple of working shipyards on the east coast. the other shipyards that were used during world war II, korea and vietnam were shutdown in the 1980s and scrapped out.

One of the few industries that continues to make weapons of war on a massive scale is the firearms industry.

I look for something major to happen between the US and china sometime between 2013 and 2020. The 2016 and 2020 elections will be a turning out. Sooner or later we are going to need our jobs back.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
You do not attack your enemy while they are strong, you wait until the enemy is weak, then you attack.

China is waiting until the U.S. is very weak, then they may strike.

Our steel mills are gone, we can not build our own computers, few of our engine and car parts are made in the USA. There is no way we can sustain a long term war with China. Once a couple of aircraft are destroyed, we have no way to replace them.

We only have a couple of working shipyards on the east coast. the other shipyards that were used during world war II, korea and vietnam were shutdown in the 1980s and scrapped out.

One of the few industries that continues to make weapons of war on a massive scale is the firearms industry.

I look for something major to happen between the US and china sometime between 2013 and 2020. The 2016 and 2020 elections will be a turning out. Sooner or later we are going to need our jobs back.

An actual military conflict with China is highly unlikely. Excuse me if I get a couple of these numbers wrong, but the US accounts roughly 1/3rd of China's exports. Do they really want to lose that? Even if they did decide to go to war with us, we have over 15,000 military aircraft, China has 2700 and just built their only aircraft carrier.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Is it ALL of china though?
Of course not. But, it is coming from an agent of the state. Therefor, it is China that is doing it. If the President and Congress didn't know about it, but the NSA were doing the same sort of thing to China, it would still be the U.S. doing it.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Good, maybe this will piss Americans off enough for them to stop buying their crap and we can start building stuff here again.


Money talks, pissed of Americans walk,

It's easy to say such things until we have to reach in our pocket to pay for them after we overcome the always low prices/cheaper is better mentality pounded in our heads through the mass media.

As for those complaining about China stealing our secrets and IP,

It's no different than complaining that the cheap prostitute you are seeing gave you AIDS and stole your wallet, and for a bonus you are now bleeding out of your ass.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
An actual military conflict with China is highly unlikely. Excuse me if I get a couple of these numbers wrong, but the US accounts roughly 1/3rd of China's exports. Do they really want to lose that? Even if they did decide to go to war with us, we have over 15,000 military aircraft, China has 2700 and just built their only aircraft carrier.

I found a video on youtube last night that talked about why germany invaded russia during world war ii.

I do not know if its true or not, but stalin was building up troops along the border of poland. To ensure germany was not invaded by russia, hitler struck first.

The united states is pushing russia and china into a corner. We have bases all along the the pacific realm, europe and asia.

Then there is the conflict with japan and china over some islands.

Its not that we will go to war with china, but how much encroaching will china tolerate before they attack us? Will it be north korea, japan,,,, or something else that pushes china over the edge.

China knows they will be overwhelmed by us military, but who said it would be a conventional war? What do you think those chinese ghost cities are for?
 

OlafSicky

Platinum Member
Feb 25, 2011
2,364
0
0
The military is too small to ever attack china and we can't have a cold war scenario since they make everything.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
I think any kind of "war" with China would be about usurping US/European influences in places like Asia and Africa so they can push Chinese goods onto those markets.

unless China does something crazy like outright attacking Taiwan or Japan, I don't see how we'd ever get into a military entanglement with them.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
Good, maybe this will piss Americans off enough for them to stop buying their crap and we can start building stuff here again.

Indeed. If I'm buying anything I always check the labels. Impossible to buy everything domestic, but if you look for a minute chances are there's a non-Chinese alternative on the shelf next to it.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
http://www.economist.com/blogs/analects/2013/02/chinese-cyber-attacks

http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2013/02/chinese-cyber-attacks

No, it's not a shooting war...yet...but it's an economic war. They've been our enemies since the Korean War, Vietnam War, and continue to be our enemies today. Stealing, hacking, copyright infringements, outright copying of goods and products...plus currency manipulation.


The US of A should simply stop ALL imports from China until they adhere to the laws of civilized nations...Would that hurt the US of A in the short term? Yes...as people have to find other sources for their cheap goods...but that may also be a boon for workers in the US of A as companies start factories here to meet the demand for goods...OR, for other countries as the companies shift production to those countries to take advantage of their cheap labor.
Certainly it's an economic war and a Cold War. I'm all in favor of not importing from China; I look for American-made first, allies second, neutral nations third, and China last.

I found a video on youtube last night that talked about why germany invaded russia during world war ii.

I do not know if its true or not, but stalin was building up troops along the border of poland. To ensure germany was not invaded by russia, hitler struck first.

The united states is pushing russia and china into a corner. We have bases all along the the pacific realm, europe and asia.

Then there is the conflict with japan and china over some islands.

Its not that we will go to war with china, but how much encroaching will china tolerate before they attack us? Will it be north korea, japan,,,, or something else that pushes china over the edge.

China knows they will be overwhelmed by us military, but who said it would be a conventional war? What do you think those chinese ghost cities are for?
There is no wisdom to be found on Youtube. Stalin purged his military starting in 1937, murdering roughly 95% of his marshals and generals, 3/4 of his field grade officers, even down to half his staff colonels and regimental commanders - thirty-five thousand high level and field grade staff officers (not to mention their families in most cases.) The last thing in the world he wanted was war with Germany before the mid-forties, preferably after a long and debilitating war between Germany and France/UK et al. He knew he had to rebuild his military leadership structure, having murdered the vast majority of able theoreticians and leaders and effectively cowed the others into an abject fear of responsibility. Consequently Stalin went overboard to avoid anything that could possibly be seen as a provocation, even to the point of court-martialling and shooting officers who fired on German overflights of sensitive Soviet military installations. Stalin refused to allow any mobilization or any redeployment to meet German troop build-ups. He complied with every German demand, ignoring every report from the world's best intelligence agency (indeed, often even killing the messenger) that Germany was stockpiling the war materiel from the Soviet Union just across the border to support the invasion of the USSR. Stalin did everything he could possibly do to avoid a provocation, believing that if he gave Hitler no reason to issue an ultimatum, Hitler could not invade. It's safe to say that Stalin was virtually the only high level person in the USSR who was surprised when Hitler invaded. This has been painstakingly documented and written up because it's the single most amazing intelligence failure in the modern world, proving that literally the best intelligence networks in the world cannot save a leader who refuses to believe them.
 

Karl Agathon

Golden Member
Sep 30, 2010
1,081
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0
The military is too small to ever attack china and we can't have a cold war scenario since they make everything.

We already are in a De-facto cold war with Red China. Some people like to walk on egg shells around it, but that doesn't make it any less true. Red China will become the near equivalent to Nazi Germany within 50 years.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
I found a video on youtube last night that talked about why germany invaded russia during world war ii.

I do not know if its true or not, but stalin was building up troops along the border of poland. To ensure germany was not invaded by russia, hitler struck first.

The united states is pushing russia and china into a corner. We have bases all along the the pacific realm, europe and asia.

Then there is the conflict with japan and china over some islands.

Its not that we will go to war with china, but how much encroaching will china tolerate before they attack us? Will it be north korea, japan,,,, or something else that pushes china over the edge.

China knows they will be overwhelmed by us military, but who said it would be a conventional war? What do you think those chinese ghost cities are for?

you are truly delusional. China is in, and will not be in a, position to attack us for at least another 2 decades. They don't have anything to project power. Their airfarce is a joke. Their navy is a joke. Their army, while large, is a sitting duck when #1 and #2 are taken into account. Their natural resources and food system are stretched. Most importantly, they need the rest of the world more than the rest of the world needs them. Sure, they are a cheap factory, but they are not irreplaceable.

China has been at war with the US for well over a decade. It all started when they pegged their currency to the "basket" of currencies, effectively pumping up their imports in an economic war. Had Americans not been drunk on Wal-Mart shit we'd have fought back.

However, in the end, they will lose. There isn't enough oil in the world to enable them to bootstrap their economy up fast enough. They can't get a sustained middle class going because of this and because their population is too large, too underdeveloped and too exploited. The virtuous cycle of a middle class/consumer economy will not take root for a while yet.

As far as the US being "weak", you have no idea what you are talking about.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
The US of A should simply stop ALL imports from China until they adhere to the laws of civilized nations...Would that hurt the US of A in the short term? Yes...as people have to find other sources for their cheap goods...but that may also be a boon for workers in the US of A as companies start factories here to meet the demand for goods...OR, for other countries as the companies shift production to those countries to take advantage of their cheap labor.

Wishful thinking; even if Chinese imports were banned there would still not be a large scale hiring boom in manufacturing. Companies would automate all they could and whatever they couldn't automate would be imported from somewhere else other than China. There's no fucking way an American is going to get hired at $8-10/hour to do a job that can be done by someone with the mental facilities of a chimp. Those days are long gone and thankfully never to return, only Democrats and morons dream of millions of Americans working in textile mills and similar jobs in the 21st century.
 

gevorg

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2004
5,070
1
0
China is not the only one who is playing dirty. Just look at stuxnet and flame. And probably many others that weren't discovered yet.
 

brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,362
1,219
126
The current crop of leaders for the US are more worried about making money than pointing our country in the right direction. We are trying to engage in 21st century warfare using 20th century tactics.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Time to wean ourselves from the Chinese teet. U.S. companies get hacked... intellectual property worth billions is stolen... yet companies (or the U.S. government for that matter) don't speak up for fear of losing access to lucrative markets.

Screw that, let walmart get plastic shit and 50 cent socks from somewhere else.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
China is not the only one who is playing dirty. Just look at stuxnet and flame. And probably many others that weren't discovered yet.

China is engaging in downright theft from U.S. companies. Stuxnet was not designed to steal intellectual property.. it was designed to slow down the Iranian nuclear program. Little bit of a difference there.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
96
86
Americans are too fat and stupid to do anything about anything. If it takes more effort than turning on the TV or clicking a facebook link, forget about it.