How can real peace in the Middle East be acheived?

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Who says it has to come to an all out fight----Israel could try and see what a world wide economic embargo would do to its economy! Where will it get the oil to keep its military machine fueled and its planes flying? Where will it export its goods if there are no buyers?---right now Israel is spending about 50% of its GNP on the military. What will happen if that GNP falls drastically.----------wake up Israel------the only people you are deluding is yourselves.

Israel gets petroleum from Italy, if I'm not mistaken.

Also, you got your numbers messed up bad - Israel's defense budget is roughly 10% of it's GNP. That's as 3 times higher, in relative terms, than what normal countries spend, but Israel is hardly normal.

What Israel is now doing in Lebanon is untolerable to any moral person in the world. Israel had a chance to get in international troops---with Hezbollah cast in the role of villian.

I'm moral, and I fully support it. Other moral people support it to. What's not moral in any kind of way is the Israeli goverment ignoring attacks on its soil. That's not moral.

In just one month-------Israel has transformed Hezbollah into the heros and Israel is now the villian--------the first step in solving this crisis is an Israelie admission that they this crisis.---------

Heros to whom? The only people who considered them to be heros are those who've done so in the first place, and I'm not really interested in that kind of people.

and now there will be a price to pay.--------if you ever lose the US press---which has been one sided also---but bombing innocent civilians in Lebanon is very hard to hide.---------nor is the extent of the civilian deaths----nor can you hide the fact that every bridge is gone---and 1/4 of the Lebanese people can no longer flee if they could.

Israel is first and foremost committed to the wellbeing of its citizens and ensuring its existence, NOT to the media, whatever media that might be.

Hitler thought he was moral, so did Stalin, so did every suicide bomber who has struck Israel.

Being "Moral" is really a Misnomer, nobody is "moral". People may predominantly commit "Moral" acts, but interspersed everyone commits some "immoral" acts.

Who said anything about ignoring attacks?

How does that pertain to "Morality"? Don't you think that there are also Moral limits to what kind of reaction a government takes as well?

 

[Lemon law]

So SamurAchzar,

You finally acknowledge that the denying of the right to return justifies the theft of arab land previously owned by its Palistinian residents.---who should have equal rights in any just State. And that the entire State of Israel is based on that theft. Thank you very much---you have just proved my point.

And explains why your arab neighbors don't like living next to a pack of theives.

But not even I am that harsh-----the above just summerizes your apparent position.

 

[SamurAchzar]

That's the point, morality is a relative issue.
From an Israeli citizen viewpoint, it's not moral of the Israeli goverment to ignore attacks which compromise the safety of soldiers in the short term and the wellbeing of the Israeli nation in the long term, as supression in the ME is considered weakness and just breeds more aggression.

How does that pertain to "Morality"? Don't you think that there are also Moral limits to what kind of reaction a government takes as well?

Yes, there are, and for me these moral limits will be met the same day Hizbullah returns the kidnapped soldiers, retreat from the international border and announces the end of conflict with Israel. I wouldn't support even one bullet shot to Lebanon - just like any other Israeli. Until then, the show is on.

Of course, civilian casualities should be avoided as much as possible, but not if it severely endangers Israeli troops. That's a secondary concern.
That's an issue of morality too, see? How can Israel explain to a mother who lost her son in duty that he died to avoid harming population which willingly harbors Hizbullah? I don't think that's a moral thing to do.

Lebanon can go into a second civil war, if that what it will take them to stop Hizbullah using the population as a living shield. The current state of affairs can simply not go on anymore.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
So SamurAchzar,

You finally acknowledge that the denying of the right to return justifies the theft of arab land previously owned by its Palistinian residents.---who should have equal rights in any just State. And that the entire State of Israel is based on that theft. Thank you very much---you have just proved my point.

And explains why your arab neighbors don't like living next to a pack of theives.

But not even I am that harsh-----the above just summerizes your apparent position.

UN granted this territory to Israel. Mind you, there was no Palestinian state and not even a Palestinian nation. This area was a trading junction and drew people from all around.

Many of those Palestinians who now claim the right of return were refugees of the war they forced on the Israelis immediately after the inception of Israel.

So I fail to see how theft is involved in this case.

 

[Kyanzes]

Qucik and easy way would be for US to take its protecting (and more and more dirty) hands off Israel. That's all it takes. They are murdering innocent people, destroying communal installations as you read this. Heck, they even bombarded a UN position. And what do you do about it? The answer is not "nothing" unfortunately, because the US supports Israel with power and weaponry. Hehe.

 

[SamurAchzar]

I'm sure that the US should have taken it's protecting/dirty hands off Britain during WWII, too. The raids on Germany murdered innocent people and destroyed many communal installations.

Fortunately for you, as well as the rest of Hungary, the US knew better.

 

[Vic]

"Real" peace will never be acheived in the ME. They've been fighting each other since the dawn of human history. The US should leave the area entirely and let them destroy themselves.

 

[Kyanzes]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
I'm sure that the US should have taken it's protecting/dirty hands off Britain during WWII, too. The raids on Germany murdered innocent people and destroyed many communal installations.

Fortunately for you, as well as the rest of Hungary, the US knew better.

But they didn't, because it proved to be a fascinating business. For your information, Hungary was an ally to Germany, so the US helped nothing at all by protecting GBR, at least not from that time's perspective. Regarding your explanation of "collateral damage" just look up info on US (and the all time ally UK) methods. Your Israeli friends are committing terrorist acts against people who have nothing to do with the attacks against Israel. Which attacks btw are originating from the artifical erection of a country in the middle of the Arab world.

 

[Kyanzes]

Originally posted by: Vic
"Real" peace will never be acheived in the ME. They've been fighting each other since the dawn of human history. The US should leave the area entirely and let them destroy themselves.

Oh yes, but they wouldn't leave. Strange, isn't it?

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Lemon law
So SamurAchzar,

You finally acknowledge that the denying of the right to return justifies the theft of arab land previously owned by its Palistinian residents.---who should have equal rights in any just State. And that the entire State of Israel is based on that theft. Thank you very much---you have just proved my point.

Well Sam ---up to revisionist history I see--lets take it point by point

And explains why your arab neighbors don't like living next to a pack of theives.

But not even I am that harsh-----the above just summerizes your apparent position.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see you are engaged in revisonist history---so I will take it point by point.---my comments in parathesises


UN granted this territory to Israel. Mind you, there was no Palestinian state and not even a Palestinian nation. This area was a trading junction and drew people from all around.

( Semicorrect---over the past many years some Russian jews and other jews had emegrated to this area---bought land and did a good job of making a go of it---but by in large they existed in relative peace with their Palistinian neighbors---and land was all part of what was called the British mandate---and was governed by England---but two problems--(1) The British were leaving and had to relinquish control (2) A huge number of jews--refuges from WW2 and in my personal opinion quite entitled to a homeland had to be dealt with--rightly or wrongly the UN created the State of Israel---and wrongly in my opinion neighboring arab states attacked Israel---making many Israelie areas with peaceful co-existing Israelie and Palistinian landlowners in the front lines of a shooting war.---Non-combatent Israelie and Palistinian civilians fled---when the dust settled---and the civilians returned to reclaim their homes and land---those of Israelie landowners were welcomed back---and those palistinian non-combatents had their land and house confiscated---and were herded into refugee camps---early on---Israel had that choice--equal treatment for all--or a two class system based on religion---Sadly Israel flunked the equal human rights test---and it haunts them to this day----any person of conscience does not believe in theft or that one indivual is better than another )

Many of those Palestinians who now claim the right of return were refugees of the war they forced on the Israelis immediately after the inception of Israel.

(Yes but in a two class system--where one religion and race is better than another---you can discriminate against some refuges and not others---and we are talking about non-combatent refuges here---the war was forced on them by other countries---be they Israelie or Palistinian---and some could return---and others could not---based on religion---now does that sound fair or equal to anyone?)

So I fail to see how theft is involved in this case.

( No you just deny the theft---Israel could have decided to be a country where the native Palistinians and the jews could have lived together in peace and equal rights---and now pay because Israel will find no peace---and must hold the native Palistinian population in bondage and subugation---as second class citizens in the land of their birth )

 

[SamurAchzar]

1. Who exactly was the attacker during the '48 war? Yes, some Arab countries were involved, but the main aggressors were the Palesinians themselves. How do you expect the Israelis to live with them side by side?

2. You don't mention that for the first time the Palesinians had a national home of their own, according to the UN mandate. Yet they failed to construct it, attacking Israel instead.

Obviously, in a perfect world they could all return to Israel as citizens and live happily ever after. But two issues remain -
1. How many of them will actively seek the destruction of Israel? Can Israel really let 300K of its worst haters in?

2. How wise it would be to encourage further tipping of the demographic scale in favor of the Palestinians? Assuming that Israel is, first and foremost, a JEWISH state in which Jews can exist peacefully as the world hasn't supplied them a place to do so before. It eventually leads to the demise of Israel.

3. Israel IS a country where the native Palestinians and Jews live side by side. There are well over million Israeli Arabs who are citizens just as I am. Of course, the system and them had to mutually adjust - for example, most of them don't serve in the IDF, which is required by law, and they are subjected to stricter security checks at the airport - but they are citizens.

Besides, every country can decide what kind of people it wants to accept. That's not racism. I'm sure the immigration laws in the US favor certain groups. Israel can too.

 

[Lemon law]

I happen to know that a precursor to getting a decent job is that an Israelie citizen have past service in IDF---so that kind of proves my two class system arguement. Nor do I have the wisdom to figure how to acheive mid-east peace---but its now clear that racheting mutual hatreds higher will not work.

I do support Israel's right to exist---but its going to have to come to grips with equal rights for all---and the formation of a Palistinian State. And like it or not---must address the right to return as a precursor to any peace settlement----but I now suspect the world community will have to impose a binding arbitration peace---as Israel has made a gaint mistake in what its doing in Lebanon.---but as a start---Israel must start schooling Israelie and Palistinians together---they must co-operate together in groups---and in even a few years you may find you have some common goals.---thats simple socialology.

I also point out you are still in denial about the theft of land---now you blame all Palistinians because some Palistinians took up arms against Israel in 1948. A wise and just society that wants to heal wounds declairs an amesty after the conflict---the US did in its civil war---so did South Africa---and avoided a bloodbath---Israel can't be a two class society and survive---Israel better find ways to get the hatreds down and peace hopes up----instead its now on an Israel is superior to everyone else common delusion----and that won't play anywhere.