How can real peace in the Middle East be acheived?

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
When people give up their humanity there will be peace. Part of that is hate, and they will keep that safely protected. It means more to them than life itself.

Peace will not happen as long as Jews exist in Israel and Muslims exist in the rest of the region.

Peace is not a process. Peace is a state of being. It is impossible to jump directly from a state of war into a state of peace without winning the war. The state of peace does not happen because one of the warring parties sees it in its dreams and simply stops fighting. It happens only when the enemy is defeated. It happens only when the enemy has no other choice but to accept its defeat and sign the peace treaty on the conditions dictated by the victories party.

True, peace also happens when both sides genuinely want it. The key words in this statement are "both" and "genuinely." hezbollah actions unequivocally show that these two words are absolutely not applicable here, leaving Israel only with one viable option--to fight this war using all available resources. Then, when the victory is achieved, the peace process will begin.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
When people give up their humanity there will be peace. Part of that is hate, and they will keep that safely protected. It means more to them than life itself.

Peace will not happen as long as Jews exist in Israel and Muslims exist in the rest of the region.

Peace is not a process. Peace is a state of being. It is impossible to jump directly from a state of war into a state of peace without winning the war. The state of peace does not happen because one of the warring parties sees it in its dreams and simply stops fighting. It happens only when the enemy is defeated. It happens only when the enemy has no other choice but to accept its defeat and sign the peace treaty on the conditions dictated by the victories party.

True, peace also happens when both sides genuinely want it. The key words in this statement are "both" and "genuinely." hezbollah actions unequivocally show that these two words are absolutely not applicable here, leaving Israel only with one viable option--to fight this war using all available resources. Then, when the victory is achieved, the peace process will begin.

So tell me, how does one win a war against a widely spread out, loosely connected group bound by their ideology? Israel can bomb the hell out of Lebanon for as long as they want, it's not going to convince the extremists in Iran, or Saudi Arabia, or Syria, or Iraq or anywhere else to give up. In fact, it will make them more determined. Previous wars aren't good templates here, the ties between the various extremist groups are more theoretical than anything else...beating the crap out of Hezbollah (if that's what Israel is actually doing at the moment) isn't going to convince Hamas to lay down their arms.

This is a war Israel can fight, certainly, but it's not a war they can win...you can't defeat ideology with bombs. Violence and war is necessary in the short term to actually keep Israel safe, but the long term solutions aren't going to come from war. And that's the problem, isn't it? I honestly think both sides are more interested in killing the other side than in any sort of peace. Unless both sides get everything they want (which is impossible), I don't think either side will agree to peace. Which is why the suggestion of a powerful third party enforcing the peace is a good one. For all the bluster about Israel, I don't believe they would attack a neutral third party just to get at their Muslim neighbors...and if they did, it would reveal something very scary about them. But in any case, rhetoric aside, Israel could not take on a European peacekeeping force and win...especially because the US could step in if necessary. And in any case, why would they, they just want peace, right? What we'd really have to worry about is terrorist attacks, but somehow I think a third party force would be able to avoid a lot of those if they remained neutral.

 

[Moonbeam]

Bio and nanotechnologies will soon make it possible to move the war to ones basement. A single madman, a single terrorist with a personal psychosis like the good old Unabomber, David Kaczynski, will be able, alone, in his or her spare time, to come up with a way to destroy all life on earth. Who knows, the end may be found in some other field.

Until mankind realizes that the violence each of its members harbors is the source of all violence in the world it is the fate of man to go extinct. You are the answer to peace but you want somebody else to go first. You are the reason that all the beautiful children in the world will die. You are the only one who can bring peace. You just have to go up on the cross, forgive totally, let go of all your hate and die.

Oh that's right, you want to take the other's guy's child with you. You are why the world will die, in your complete and total ignorance. But you are forgiven for you know not what you do.

 

[MrPickins]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
In this case there does have to be a winner and a loser.
My reasoning is very simple.
Do you really think that a UN peacekeeping force will be able to GUARANTEE the peace?
I would bet you dollard to donuts the first thing that happens after the peace jeping force is in place is iether a suicide bomber strikes inside Israel or hezbollah proves that it doesn`t matter how far back you push them they can still launch a missle at Israel.

Okay please go to a dictionary or even wikipedia and look up the word--Shalom!
Even though I prefer the word Shalom aleichem!!

Shalom does not mean Goodbye...lolol

This is the perfect example of the cynicism I mentioned:
"A truce will never work! We must have absolute victory!"
As long as both sides believe this, it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's funny you mention Wikipedia, as that was the site I checked the definition on before making the post.

Shalom (???????) is a Hebrew word meaning peace. As it does in English, it can refer to either peace between two entities (especially between man and God or possibly between two countries), or to true inner peace, calmness or safety of one individual. It is also used as a greeting to either say hello or farewell, and is found in many other expressions and names. Its equivalent cognate in Arabic is salaam and sälam in Ethiopian Semitic languages.

The word shalom derives from the root shin-lamedh-mem (?.?.?), which has cognates in many Semitic languages, and means completeness, fulfillment, wellbeing, a concept usually encapsulated by translation in the word peace.

Hence usage of shalom in the Hebrew Bible often refers to conditions related to peace: safety, health and prosperity of individuals and nations.

As you use it in posts after declaring that war is the only option, It was my opinion that you could not be hypocritical enough to mean literally "peace." Unless you are only referring to the health, safety , and prosperity of Israel only?

It seemed more likely, since you use it at the end of every post, that you were using it as a farewell.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: magomago
REAL peace within the middle east involves these issues:

1) Israel sticking to 1967 borders
2) Establishment of a Palestinian State with East Jerusalem as the Capital or all of Jerusalem as an international/shared capital between the two countries
3) The entire Palestine/Israel border to be demilitarized by BOTH sides with just police forces to help facilitate transportation between the two lands
4) Complete exchange of prisoners - I say complete because people can argue about this forever over who should and shouldn't be released.
5) Complete recognition of Israel by neighboring Arab countries (not all need to be recognized. To get countries like Syria/Iraq/SA to recognize is much more important than getting a country like Morocco or Mauritania(sp?) )
6) Rejection of Complete right to return, but those who have legitimate claims must be compensated in some way (which we, the US, will probably end up paying for somehow)
7) Stabilization in Iraq [easier said than done...]. Will need a REAL time table set, and at least in the short term an increase of US troops to 600K because countries like Turkey, Syria and Iran are messing with Iraq. If a real time table is set and real commitment occurs (rather than this 1/2 arsed carpet bagging we see), I wouldn't be surprised to see the homegrown insurgency die down relatively fast.
8) End of American support to Saudi Arabia (the biggest problem in the propagation of the false version of Islam which gives the rest a bad name)
9) Normalize Relations with Iran (I bet if we tried to, their government would do it without a problem). The nicer we act with them, the more moderate they will become. Calling them and Iraq part of the axis of evil was a huge mistake.

After these can be implemented, then over time support to Eygpt, Jordan, and any other Arab country (which is almost all of them) can be eliminated. We can't FORCE the government to change, but we can choose to push for reforms. Its ridiculous to support some of these dictators because they will be nice to us while oppressing their people. That is not the American Way.
A true spread of American principles is to spread the idea of Democracy, and let it grow in its own unique fashion in each region in the world.


EDIT:

What do you guys think? I tried to be realistic and think about the important issues that really make or break a deal. If you disagree, let me see what you think are the real issues.

EDIT2:

We all spend so much time pissing as much on the other side, it seems we never sit down to think about what can REALLY bring peace. And not just simply what can bring peace, but what ISSUES bring peace. It isn?t as simple as ?Israel leave Lebanon and help pay for the damage they caused? or ?Some kind of Palestinian State?...but its a mix of many factors that need to be addressed.

You got some very good ideas and fair and balance approach to the peace and middle east. Unfortunately, those pro-Israel people will be the first to shot these ideas down, as they have done over and over in the past.

I just want to add one more thing to your suggestion, and I am sure pro-Israel people is gonna flame it but it is a necessity for a long lasting peace. Israel must not take aggresive stance and invade palestine/Lebenon every time a terrorist/terrorist organization do something. They should focus on their interior defense, and rely on international diplomacy to deal with these organization.

The reason behind that is simple, with Palestine and Lebenon just coming out of wars and years of destruction, they do not have the political power and resource to keep the extremist militant groups in check. So there will be time when extremist groups do things on their own that's not what majority of Palestinian/Lebanese wanted. But as long as Israel keep holding Palestinian/Lebanese responsible for the act of minority terrorist group and continue to kill civilain, destroy infrastructure, killing the economy, Palestine and Lebanon will never have the power to keep those extremist group in check.

So even if your suggestion is implemented, Israel and the international organization need to tolerate the acts of few extremist organization and not break the peace agreement because of those acts. People need to give Palestinian/Lebanese government a chance to get stronger and stablize the economy. It is not bowing to terrorism, it is doing the right thing and making Palestine/Lebanon strong, affluent, and kill the source of terrorism in those country.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: magomago
REAL peace within the middle east involves these issues:

1) Israel sticking to 1967 borders
2) Establishment of a Palestinian State with East Jerusalem as the Capital or all of Jerusalem as an international/shared capital between the two countries
3) The entire Palestine/Israel border to be demilitarized by BOTH sides with just police forces to help facilitate transportation between the two lands
4) Complete exchange of prisoners - I say complete because people can argue about this forever over who should and shouldn't be released.
5) Complete recognition of Israel by neighboring Arab countries (not all need to be recognized. To get countries like Syria/Iraq/SA to recognize is much more important than getting a country like Morocco or Mauritania(sp?) )
6) Rejection of Complete right to return, but those who have legitimate claims must be compensated in some way (which we, the US, will probably end up paying for somehow)
7) Stabilization in Iraq [easier said than done...]. Will need a REAL time table set, and at least in the short term an increase of US troops to 600K because countries like Turkey, Syria and Iran are messing with Iraq. If a real time table is set and real commitment occurs (rather than this 1/2 arsed carpet bagging we see), I wouldn't be surprised to see the homegrown insurgency die down relatively fast.
8) End of American support to Saudi Arabia (the biggest problem in the propagation of the false version of Islam which gives the rest a bad name)
9) Normalize Relations with Iran (I bet if we tried to, their government would do it without a problem). The nicer we act with them, the more moderate they will become. Calling them and Iraq part of the axis of evil was a huge mistake.

After these can be implemented, then over time support to Eygpt, Jordan, and any other Arab country (which is almost all of them) can be eliminated. We can't FORCE the government to change, but we can choose to push for reforms. Its ridiculous to support some of these dictators because they will be nice to us while oppressing their people. That is not the American Way.
A true spread of American principles is to spread the idea of Democracy, and let it grow in its own unique fashion in each region in the world.


EDIT:

What do you guys think? I tried to be realistic and think about the important issues that really make or break a deal. If you disagree, let me see what you think are the real issues.

EDIT2:

We all spend so much time pissing as much on the other side, it seems we never sit down to think about what can REALLY bring peace. And not just simply what can bring peace, but what ISSUES bring peace. It isn?t as simple as ?Israel leave Lebanon and help pay for the damage they caused? or ?Some kind of Palestinian State?...but its a mix of many factors that need to be addressed.

You got some very good ideas and fair and balance approach to the peace and middle east. Unfortunately, those pro-Israel people will be the first to shot these ideas down, as they have done over and over in the past.

I just want to add one more thing to your suggestion, and I am sure pro-Israel people is gonna flame it but it is a necessity for a long lasting peace. Israel must not take aggresive stance and invade palestine/Lebenon every time a terrorist/terrorist organization do something. They should focus on their interior defense, and rely on international diplomacy to deal with these organization.

The reason behind that is simple, with Palestine and Lebenon just coming out of wars and years of destruction, they do not have the political power and resource to keep the extremist militant groups in check. So there will be time when extremist groups do things on their own that's not what majority of Palestinian/Lebanese wanted. But as long as Israel keep holding Palestinian/Lebanese responsible for the act of minority terrorist group and continue to kill civilain, destroy infrastructure, killing the economy, Palestine and Lebanon will never have the power to keep those extremist group in check.

So even if your suggestion is implemented, Israel and the international organization need to tolerate the acts of few extremist organization and not break the peace agreement because of those acts. People need to give Palestinian/Lebanese government a chance to get stronger and stablize the economy. It is not bowing to terrorism, it is doing the right thing and making Palestine/Lebanon strong, affluent, and kill the source of terrorism in those country.

I agree with your ideas, but I still think it is naieve to say that Lebannon does not support Hez. Not only that, I would question as to whether Lebannon has ever asked Israel for help in policing the south of Lebannon, or if they have asked the UN, so that a situation like this does not happen. I am more inclinced to belive that Lebanno, Syria, Iran all would rather funnel money/supplies to these proxy groups, and than sit back and claim innocence.

 

[Lemon law]

Rchiu has also nailed something---until the Palistinian people have some hope for the future---Israel will always be under attack.

But in the recent past we have seen a long standing conflict in Ireland largely patched up---which began with the English finally talking to the IRA.
But what has really extinguished the conflict is that the Irish are no longer getting preferencial treatment for being catholic or protestant---and that the
economic future is looking up for all.

Until the Israelies can acheive the same for the Palistinians living within or close to Israel---they will remain clueless on why they are hated. But I am guessing that
this current conflict in Lebanon will be the last time in human history where the world community will permit Israel to engage in collective punishment on a massive scale.
Even the American people can no longer stomache it---and American policy will shift from pro-Israelie to neutral.---and our massive subsudies to the Israelie military will end.

As Irate Leaf is finding out-----by in large people on this forum do not agree with his warped sense of moral superority---and are starting to realise that the world will have to impose a peace because its now hopeless that the parties can agree among themselves.

But sadly there seems to be no voices of moderation left in Israel---and all are betting that military might will keep the wolves at bay forever---until Israel starts to honestly examine why they are hated, to starts to give real economic opportunities to Palistinians within their borders, and start to defuse the hatreds, this will either get worse, or the State of Israel will become totally isolated---and subject to world santions.-------wake up Israel--------extremists within your ranks are spelling your long term doom.

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Name any nation that would want to go one on one in a war with Israel?
India....China.....ok you win....sheer numbers wins everytime.
there is NO European nation capable of going 1 on 1 with Israel.
We surely don`t want tf course we know they have the best trained army in the world.
The problem is when your fighting for your very survival all else pails in comparison.

Quite cocky are we? I'm willing to bet the UK could spank Israel with minor difficulty. Not that it would, but if it had to.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Name any nation that would want to go one on one in a war with Israel?
India....China.....ok you win....sheer numbers wins everytime.
there is NO European nation capable of going 1 on 1 with Israel.
We surely don`t want tf course we know they have the best trained army in the world.
The problem is when your fighting for your very survival all else pails in comparison.

Quite cocky are we? I'm willing to bet the UK could spank Israel with minor difficulty. Not that it would, but if it had to.

Yup, but will add to the list:

1) Britain
2) France
3) Russia
4) The US

There are likely even more Nations capable of handing Israel's Military's ass to them.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Name any nation that would want to go one on one in a war with Israel?
India....China.....ok you win....sheer numbers wins everytime.
there is NO European nation capable of going 1 on 1 with Israel.
We surely don`t want tf course we know they have the best trained army in the world.
The problem is when your fighting for your very survival all else pails in comparison.

Quite cocky are we? I'm willing to bet the UK could spank Israel with minor difficulty. Not that it would, but if it had to.

Really? Where did you get this information from? From what I know, Israel's military strength significantly preceeds that of Britain, which itself is the strongest European army.
There was a thread about that in Off-Topic a while ago.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Name any nation that would want to go one on one in a war with Israel?
India....China.....ok you win....sheer numbers wins everytime.
there is NO European nation capable of going 1 on 1 with Israel.
We surely don`t want tf course we know they have the best trained army in the world.
The problem is when your fighting for your very survival all else pails in comparison.

Quite cocky are we? I'm willing to bet the UK could spank Israel with minor difficulty. Not that it would, but if it had to.

Really? Where did you get this information from? From what I know, Israel's military strength significantly preceeds that of Britain, which itself is the strongest European army.
There was a thread about that in Off-Topic a while ago.

If it ever came down to that we as Americans would have to supoport our true Allie and friend, Great Britian. Israel would lose without Americas help/

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Rchiu has also nailed something---until the Palistinian people have some hope for the future---Israel will always be under attack.
Even if the palestinian people have a future there will be no peace. This isn`t about land for the Palestinians at all. You are nieve to believe that if palestine had a land that peace would be achieved. Israel already offwered them land for a Palestinian homeland and what happenned? Or is your memory so short you have no clue? The palestinians went and elected Hamas...that was a not a smart thing todo. Even if the palestinians have there own homeland there will still be attacks on Israel. One of the main reasons is becuase there are arab countries that believe the land that is presently called israel belongs to the palestinians. You must understand there is no win for Israel when confronted with the mindset of its neighbors.
But in the recent past we have seen a long standing conflict in Ireland largely patched up---which began with the English finally talking to the IRA.
But what has really extinguished the conflict is that the Irish are no longer getting preferencial treatment for being catholic or protestant---and that the
economic future is looking up for all.
That is an entirely different set of circumstances. The irish were not fighting for there survival as a nation. There struggle was purely a religious one.

Until the Israelies can acheive the same for the Palistinians living within or close to Israel---they will remain clueless on why they are hated. But I am guessing that
this current conflict in Lebanon will be the last time in human history where the world community will permit Israel to engage in collective punishment on a massive scale.
Even the American people can no longer stomache it---and American policy will shift from pro-Israelie to neutral.---and our massive subsudies to the Israelie military will end.
I would say that you are clueless as to why these wars have taken place ever since 1948.
You have no workable solutions to solve these issues. The world communitie will never rise up as you wish them to against Israel.
It has already been proven that if you leave Israel alone all will be well. But what keeps happenning is iether somebody blows up 30 people in a Israeli market or somebody else does some equally as stoopid and then Israel is forced to retaliate.
Pure diplomacy will never work. It has been tried and failed miserably. becuase your radical fringe lement in the middle east want nothing less than the complete destruction of Israel.
As long as hezbollah uses the tactics that COWARDS use Israel will keep on vigorously defending its people.
You are so totally wrong about the American people. Where are your over whelming facts and figure or are you just elucidating at the mouth?
I am sorry but as long as Russia is funnelling military hardware to other milke east countries we will not abandon the Israeli people as you suggest will happen.

As Irate Leaf is finding out-----by in large people on this forum do not agree with his warped sense of moral superority---and are starting to realise that the world will have to impose a peace because its now hopeless that the parties can agree among themselves.
Finding out?? where have you been sherlock? Thats par for the course when confronted with a ovrwhelming majority of people on these forums who support hezbollah and the destructin of israel.

But sadly there seems to be no voices of moderation left in Israel---and all are betting that military might will keep the wolves at bay forever---until Israel starts to honestly examine why they are hated, to starts to give real economic opportunities to Palistinians within their borders, and start to defuse the hatreds, this will either get worse, or the State of Israel will become totally isolated---and subject to world santions.-------wake up Israel--------extremists within your ranks are spelling your long term doom.
I will agree with you there. The Israeli people are tired of this game that is being played. They have given back land after every war in the name of peace. What has it gotten them? Not peace thats for sure. In fact some would argue that to there enemies it was a sign of weakness.
Again your missing the point. The Palstinians are caught in a catch 22 as are the lebanese. There country will always be used by arab extremists as a buffer to attack israel and get away figuring that Israel would never come after them.
You can label my brothers and I as extremist but we will never become pacifist or patsys at the hands of our enemies.
Again wishful thinking concerning sanctions. Your use of the word--Extremist to describe those of us defending Israel is probably accurate. We are extreme in our 100% beliefe that Israel has a right to a peaceful existence along side other arab countries.
We are extreme to believe that enough is enough. The sad fact is diplomacy has been tried and failed miserably why? Because unless there is a clear cut victor in a war. Diplomacy will never work.

yet the OP is one of the first persons on these boards to attempt to put down in writing a fair exchange of ideas concerning peace in the middle east.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Name any nation that would want to go one on one in a war with Israel?
India....China.....ok you win....sheer numbers wins everytime.
there is NO European nation capable of going 1 on 1 with Israel.
We surely don`t want tf course we know they have the best trained army in the world.
The problem is when your fighting for your very survival all else pails in comparison.

Quite cocky are we? I'm willing to bet the UK could spank Israel with minor difficulty. Not that it would, but if it had to.

Really? Where did you get this information from? From what I know, Israel's military strength significantly preceeds that of Britain, which itself is the strongest European army.
There was a thread about that in Off-Topic a while ago.

If it ever came down to that we as Americans would have to supoport our true Allie and friend, Great Britian. Israel would lose without Americas help/

Wishful thinking. But consider this - as close to being allies as we are with GB we are even closer allies with Israel.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Name any nation that would want to go one on one in a war with Israel?
India....China.....ok you win....sheer numbers wins everytime.
there is NO European nation capable of going 1 on 1 with Israel.
We surely don`t want tf course we know they have the best trained army in the world.
The problem is when your fighting for your very survival all else pails in comparison.

Quite cocky are we? I'm willing to bet the UK could spank Israel with minor difficulty. Not that it would, but if it had to.

Really? Where did you get this information from? From what I know, Israel's military strength significantly preceeds that of Britain, which itself is the strongest European army.
There was a thread about that in Off-Topic a while ago.

If it ever came down to that we as Americans would have to supoport our true Allie and friend, Great Britian. Israel would lose without Americas help/

Wishful thinking. But consider this - as close to being allies as we are with GB we are even closer allies with Israel.

Maybe that's how some people see it, but being allies has to be a two way street. Britain has been a close friend and ally that has helped us a great number of times in the past. Israel just takes, the only thing we "gain" from the alliance is the hatred of every other group in the Middle East and the loss of any kind of objectivity that would allow us to broker a real and lasting peace in the Middle East. Hell, FRANCE is a better ally than Israel.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: MrPickins

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
In this case there does have to be a winner and a loser.
My reasoning is very simple.
Do you really think that a UN peacekeeping force will be able to GUARANTEE the peace?
I would bet you dollard to donuts the first thing that happens after the peace jeping force is in place is iether a suicide bomber strikes inside Israel or hezbollah proves that it doesn`t matter how far back you push them they can still launch a missle at Israel.

Okay please go to a dictionary or even wikipedia and look up the word--Shalom!
Even though I prefer the word Shalom aleichem!!

Shalom does not mean Goodbye...lolol

This is the perfect example of the cynicism I mentioned:
"A truce will never work! We must have absolute victory!"
As long as both sides believe this, it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's funny you mention Wikipedia, as that was the site I checked the definition on before making the post.

Shalom (???????) is a Hebrew word meaning peace. As it does in English, it can refer to either peace between two entities (especially between man and God or possibly between two countries), or to true inner peace, calmness or safety of one individual. It is also used as a greeting to either say hello or farewell, and is found in many other expressions and names. Its equivalent cognate in Arabic is salaam and sälam in Ethiopian Semitic languages.

The word shalom derives from the root shin-lamedh-mem (?.?.?), which has cognates in many Semitic languages, and means completeness, fulfillment, wellbeing, a concept usually encapsulated by translation in the word peace.

Hence usage of shalom in the Hebrew Bible often refers to conditions related to peace: safety, health and prosperity of individuals and nations.

As you use it in posts after declaring that war is the only option, It was my opinion that you could not be hypocritical enough to mean literally "peace." Unless you are only referring to the health, safety , and prosperity of Israel only?

It seemed more likely, since you use it at the end of every post, that you were using it as a farewell.

haha...thats funny. even in real every day life I use the word Shalom. After all I believe thats what we all want is PEACE. Yet that word PEACE means different things to different people.

 

[MrPickins]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf

Originally posted by: MrPickins

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
In this case there does have to be a winner and a loser.
My reasoning is very simple.
Do you really think that a UN peacekeeping force will be able to GUARANTEE the peace?
I would bet you dollard to donuts the first thing that happens after the peace jeping force is in place is iether a suicide bomber strikes inside Israel or hezbollah proves that it doesn`t matter how far back you push them they can still launch a missle at Israel.

Okay please go to a dictionary or even wikipedia and look up the word--Shalom!
Even though I prefer the word Shalom aleichem!!

Shalom does not mean Goodbye...lolol

This is the perfect example of the cynicism I mentioned:
"A truce will never work! We must have absolute victory!"
As long as both sides believe this, it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's funny you mention Wikipedia, as that was the site I checked the definition on before making the post.

Shalom (???????) is a Hebrew word meaning peace. As it does in English, it can refer to either peace between two entities (especially between man and God or possibly between two countries), or to true inner peace, calmness or safety of one individual. It is also used as a greeting to either say hello or farewell, and is found in many other expressions and names. Its equivalent cognate in Arabic is salaam and sälam in Ethiopian Semitic languages.

The word shalom derives from the root shin-lamedh-mem (?.?.?), which has cognates in many Semitic languages, and means completeness, fulfillment, wellbeing, a concept usually encapsulated by translation in the word peace.

Hence usage of shalom in the Hebrew Bible often refers to conditions related to peace: safety, health and prosperity of individuals and nations.

As you use it in posts after declaring that war is the only option, It was my opinion that you could not be hypocritical enough to mean literally "peace." Unless you are only referring to the health, safety , and prosperity of Israel only?

It seemed more likely, since you use it at the end of every post, that you were using it as a farewell.

haha...thats funny. even in real every day life I use the word Shalom. After all I believe thats what we all want is PEACE. Yet that word PEACE means different things to different people.

Peace means compromise. From both sides.

 

[Lemon law]

Who says it has to come to an all out fight----Israel could try and see what a world wide economic embargo would do to its economy! Where will it get the oil to keep its military machine fueled and its planes flying? Where will it export its goods if there are no buyers?---right now Israel is spending about 50% of its GNP on the military. What will happen if that GNP falls drastically.----------wake up Israel------the only people you are deluding is yourselves.

What Israel is now doing in Lebanon is untolerable to any moral person in the world. Israel had a chance to get in international troops---with Hezbollah cast in the role of villian.
In just one month-------Israel has transformed Hezbollah into the heros and Israel is now the villian--------the first step in solving this crisis is an Israelie admission that they bungled
this crisis.---------and now there will be a price to pay.--------if you ever lose the US press---which has been one sided also---but bombing innocent civilians in Lebanon is very hard to hide.---------nor is the extent of the civilian deaths----nor can you hide the fact that every bridge is gone---and 1/4 of the Lebanese people can no longer flee if they could.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Peace means compromise. From both sides.

By golly your onto something.
But then again for there to even be compromise. Both party have to want it.
Both partys do not want it.

Peace is not a process. Peace is a state of being. It is impossible to jump directly from a state of war into a state of peace without winning the war. The state of peace does not happen because one of the warring parties sees it in its dreams and simply stops fighting. It happens only when the enemy is defeated. It happens only when the enemy has no other choice but to accept its defeat and sign the peace treaty on the conditions dictated by the victories party.

True, peace also happens when both sides genuinely want it. The key words in this statement are "both" and "genuinely." hezbollah actions unequivocally show that these two words are absolutely not applicable here, leaving Israel only with one viable option--to fight this war using all available resources. Then, when the victory is achieved, the peace process will begin.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf

Peace means compromise. From both sides.

By golly your onto something.
But then again for there to even be compromise. Both party have to want it.
Both partys do not want it.

Peace is not a process. Peace is a state of being. It is impossible to jump directly from a state of war into a state of peace without winning the war. The state of peace does not happen because one of the warring parties sees it in its dreams and simply stops fighting. It happens only when the enemy is defeated. It happens only when the enemy has no other choice but to accept its defeat and sign the peace treaty on the conditions dictated by the victories party.

True, peace also happens when both sides genuinely want it. The key words in this statement are "both" and "genuinely." hezbollah actions unequivocally show that these two words are absolutely not applicable here, leaving Israel only with one viable option--to fight this war using all available resources. Then, when the victory is achieved, the peace process will begin.

So what about the random bystanders in the Muslim world, especially in Lebanon in this instance. Unlike most wars, I don't think the fighters represent the will of the entire people...I think the extremists are managing to sway a lot of more moderate Muslims, but I also think that all else being equal, they would rather have peace. Fighting this war using all available resources does not just mean wheeling out bigger and better bombs, it means trying to separate the radicals from the moderates...and that's something Israel is singularly poor at doing.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Name any nation that would want to go one on one in a war with Israel?
India....China.....ok you win....sheer numbers wins everytime.
there is NO European nation capable of going 1 on 1 with Israel.
We surely don`t want tf course we know they have the best trained army in the world.
The problem is when your fighting for your very survival all else pails in comparison.

Quite cocky are we? I'm willing to bet the UK could spank Israel with minor difficulty. Not that it would, but if it had to.

Really? Where did you get this information from? From what I know, Israel's military strength significantly preceeds that of Britain, which itself is the strongest European army.
There was a thread about that in Off-Topic a while ago.

If it ever came down to that we as Americans would have to supoport our true Allie and friend, Great Britian. Israel would lose without Americas help/

Wishful thinking. But consider this - as close to being allies as we are with GB we are even closer allies with Israel.

Yeah if you consider Israels parasitic relationship a close friendship.

 

[Lemon law]

You are not much of a student of recent history are you IrateLeaf?----when the war is won the peace process can begin???---no--in case you have not noticed the terrorism starts up again.
So Israel redoubles its repression---and there is more terrorism---and now Arafat---is now replaced by Hezbollah---but it looks like this recent episode has now lost you Egytian support.
Something it took 20 year of patient negotiations to acheive. What happens if you lose Jordanian neutrality?---and then the ring around Israel will be unbroken.

With the average person on the street in all those countries now hating your guts with a passion. In case you have not noticed the terrorists are winning the hearts and minds.
Israelie military might might be able to impose a temporary settlement---but the terrorists are still winning.

 

[Aimster]

I am serious when I say this...

let me control the M.E.
Problem solved

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Who says it has to come to an all out fight----Israel could try and see what a world wide economic embargo would do to its economy! Where will it get the oil to keep its military machine fueled and its planes flying? Where will it export its goods if there are no buyers?---right now Israel is spending about 50% of its GNP on the military. What will happen if that GNP falls drastically.----------wake up Israel------the only people you are deluding is yourselves.

Israel gets petroleum from Italy, if I'm not mistaken.

Also, you got your numbers messed up bad - Israel's defense budget is roughly 10% of it's GNP. That's as 3 times higher, in relative terms, than what normal countries spend, but Israel is hardly normal.

What Israel is now doing in Lebanon is untolerable to any moral person in the world. Israel had a chance to get in international troops---with Hezbollah cast in the role of villian.

I'm moral, and I fully support it. Other moral people support it to. What's not moral in any kind of way is the Israeli goverment ignoring attacks on its soil. That's not moral.

In just one month-------Israel has transformed Hezbollah into the heros and Israel is now the villian--------the first step in solving this crisis is an Israelie admission that they this crisis.---------

Heros to whom? The only people who considered them to be heros are those who've done so in the first place, and I'm not really interested in that kind of people.

and now there will be a price to pay.--------if you ever lose the US press---which has been one sided also---but bombing innocent civilians in Lebanon is very hard to hide.---------nor is the extent of the civilian deaths----nor can you hide the fact that every bridge is gone---and 1/4 of the Lebanese people can no longer flee if they could.

Israel is first and foremost committed to the wellbeing of its citizens and ensuring its existence, NOT to the media, whatever media that might be.

 

[Lemon law]

In terms of ensuring the well being of its citizens----you might take another page from recent history---about how the Japanese military---and the German military did such an excellent job of ensuring the wellbeing of its citizens--------by attacking their neighbors--they were very popular at home in 1942-----by 1945 they had brought their homelands to ruin. But they lived it down and now do quite well without a super military.---and play nice with their neighbors.

Funny thing---they pissed the rest of the world off----and long term got beat because they lost world support.--------Israel is now at that verge of losing support point---it can be done the South African way---by economic embargo---but lots of ways to skin a cat as they say.---but long term---I would say the trend lines are pointing down unless Israel changes policy. ---and starts ackknowleging some of its own faults a strong military has allowed it to ignore----I note IrateLeaf has already pronounced the right to return a dead issue---while its still within lving memory---while citing thousand year old prior residency as a justification.

 

[SamurAchzar]

The day "right of return" is granted, Israel will stop existing. That's why it will never happen.