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Discussion How can democracy function when part of the population are acting on non-factual information?

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
10,886
201
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With the internet and such I had thought we could be more democratic and have people have a bigger voice in government. But seeing how things are trending it seems we're going to be running into the issue that we won't even be able to have people that share the same reality. Attempting to control misinformation is going to be impossible for the government due to the first amendment and do we really want corporations to be the ones to determine the truth? Even if they were, we see that people just switch to more closed platforms.

Currently we have representatives that have history with each other but the new blood coming in seem to be more polarized. It going to be harder for those in the middle to win primaries for both parties. This might just lead to a stall in government. The argument will change from pros/cons of policy and to what is true. How can you make a informed decision when most of the information is non-factual?
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
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I don't think we can. We've entered a stage of our psycho-technological evolution where more than one reality can exist at one time, any of which are just as valid as any others. Truth is not a requirement for our civilization anymore, and we'll begin our gradual decline until either WW3 or climate change kills us all. I don't think we, as a species, have the capacity to recover from our current situation. And don't kid yourself into thinking political polarization is an American problem.
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,270
740
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I don't think we can. We've entered a stage of our psycho-technological evolution where more than one reality can exist at one time, any of which are just as valid as any others. Truth is not a requirement for our civilization anymore, and we'll begin our gradual decline until either WW3 or climate change kills us all. I don't think we, as a species, have the capacity to recover from our current situation. And don't kid yourself into thinking political polarization is an American problem.
I think the extreme polarization is an American problem. Just look at our mask debate compared to other countries.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
15,132
5,257
136
Nope .. this medium with a huge potential for speech and sharing ideas has been weaponized to fuck up your mind and turn on your fellow man.
Rich fuckers figured out another way to fuck with you.
Same old same old.
 

Gardener

Senior member
Nov 22, 1999
465
94
101
I think the extreme polarization is an American problem. Just look at our mask debate compared to other countries.
There is no mask debate, it is established science that wearing a mask is the best practice.

The problem in the USA, up until recently, is that society has been too polite with people acting out of a belief system with no basis in science, nor reason. Those folks no longer get a "free pass" for their quaint cultural /religious beliefs when it comes to exposing the rest of us to harm. Keep your religion to yourself, in your private, personal life. You don't have the right to infect the rest of us.
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,270
740
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Yeah, there definitely isn't any polarization with the brits or aussies.
You missed the modifier "Extreme". I spoke with a friend in the UK last week and she was telling me about their lockdown. I was surprised at how severe the measures were and embarrassed as the US we can't even get a mask mandate, let alone a lockdown like that.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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I think the extreme polarization is an American problem. Just look at our mask debate compared to other countries.
Have you traveled the world at all?

If you haven't looked around much - the same is basically occurring in many different countries... Brazil... India... France...UK... Poland.... list goes on and on...
 
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Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,652
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Have you traveled the world at all?

If you haven't looked around much - the same is basically occurring in many different countries... Brazil... India... France...UK... Poland.... list goes on and on...
Yeh, but how many had their President stage 10 superspreader rallies in 2 days before the election? How many have state governors following his lead straight for the gates of Hell?
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
10,886
201
106
At what point in American history was this not true?
It's not like there were poeple in Congress saying the US shouldn't get involved in WW2 since Japan didn't bomb Pearl Harbor and it was a false flag attack by UK to get the US involved. Maybe I just don't know history well enough but when have the masses belived something false and then elected people to act on those beliefs?
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,270
740
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Have you traveled the world at all?

If you haven't looked around much - the same is basically occurring in many different countries... Brazil... India... France...UK... Poland.... list goes on and on...
No, the same is not happening. What is happening in the US is not happening in any other fully developed country.

FYI, I have 2 passports. Do you even have 1? If you even know anyone outside the country, give them a call and get their opinion of the US right now.
 

sportage

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2008
9,312
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It’s been predicted that this could be the beginning of the end for America and for American democracy. The Soviet Union fell apart during the Reagan era, and then bounced back through a murderous dictator Vladimir Putin. Will our current downfall of America as we know it possibly follow the same path? Where Donald Trump comes back in 2024 or remains in 2021 as America’s first murderous dictator? Not as president but openly as the full blown dictator? It could happen. The stars are aligned for that to happen. I honestly believe this is exactly the desire of many republicans. I truly believe that this explains the attitude from the Republican leadership. I honestly believe that republicans don’t mind, don’t mind at all if America turns into a dictatorship, just as long as that dictator is.... Donald Trump or someone as close as possible. The way this republican leadership from the United States congress down to the governorships have had no problem with enabling Donald Trump and encouraging Donald Trump’s destructive behavior is pretty much all the proof anyone needs that millions of Americans are ready for a dictatorship. Joe Biden is not yet acting president of the United States of America, and Joe Biden may never become acting president of the United States of America. We’re coming down to the wire and we shall know soon. We could know as soon as next week if we live in a democracy, or dictatorship.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
8,119
5,169
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It's not guaranteed the planet will fully recover. If it does, time will be key. We need to once again get used to politicians who generally tell the truth and operate more on data and experience than loyalty to a person. I'm hoping that the Dems have two terms so that Trump's behavior is well in the past and people are used to competent people in government again.

And yes, countries like Brazil and Poland need to find a way to oust the Trump-like populists as well. We need a concerted effort to remind people that facts matter.
 
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Nov 8, 2012
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No, the same is not happening. What is happening in the US is not happening in any other fully developed country.

FYI, I have 2 passports. Do you even have 1? If you even know anyone outside the country, give them a call and get their opinion of the US right now.
lol... just wow.

I have 2 passports? Okay buddy, like that has any indications of how many times you've traveled outside the country.

You do realize you can get a passport... and not even use it, right?


And if you didn't follow what I just said I'm flat out telling you: You're wrong. Divisive politics is taking off in all the countries I mentioned and more.

The fact that it wasn't a big-name celebrity-type like Trump, doesn't take away my point.
 

Gardener

Senior member
Nov 22, 1999
465
94
101
I appreciate the way this NZ reporter discounts the far-right, failed MP. We need this treatment of anti-faxers in the US to preserve an informed electorate, and a healthy democracy.

 
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emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,270
740
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lol... just wow.

I have 2 passports? Okay buddy, like that has any indications of how many times you've traveled outside the country.

You do realize you can get a passport... and not even use it, right?


And if you didn't follow what I just said I'm flat out telling you: You're wrong. Divisive politics is taking off in all the countries I mentioned and more.

The fact that it wasn't a big-name celebrity-type like Trump, doesn't take away my point.
Let's remember how this started, you asked me if I leave the country, implying somehow I don't know what's going on around the world. 1.) Having 2 passports means you are a citizen in 2 countries. 2.) Keeping passports active generally means you travel or expect to. A US passport renewal is ~$100 and expires in 10 years, the other country costs ~$150 and expires in 5, not including the time to process the passport or go to the embassy to do it. 3.) Just to close the loop I did 5 international trips last year alone, some were multiple country trips not including the typical layovers. How many did you do last year?

Now, for the point you are attempting to make. We are talking again about EXTREME divisive politics. You know a subset of divisive politics. As I said, the US is far apart from other comparable countries in this. Ex. being the mask mandate.

Lastly, you dodged the question. Do you have a passport?
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,709
3,516
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In my opinion:

We have always had a large portion of uneducated people in America, brainwashed to conform to their local culture. Only in large population density areas do cultural stereotyped get exposed for the bigotry they contain. You can't be a racist bigot and practice segregation in a cultural climate where you depend on different kinds of people to survive. Liberalism is a methodology that promotes economic survival. It has always been in this country that the economic liberal elites ran the country that guaranteed true economic trickle down. All you had to do was to join via a liberal education, and practice the philosophy to succeed. All of this required reading and rational thinking, all the skills that are proper for liberal thinking.

Today we have Fox News, the internet and social media filling the minds of the unwilling and untrained with praise for their unexamined unchallenged bigoted state, convincing them they are really somebodies who have been deprived of what they are told should really be theirs. Nothing has really changed that much except to day the ignorant have a much louder voice trying to drag us back to a time when they weren't forced to face their own bigotry, when America Was Great because in their sheltered little worlds they heard only their own words.

Everyone but the wise believe that whatever identity he or she believes themselves to be, is the greatest thing since sliced bread and whatever that identity is, one has it purely by accident.

The self is a creation for self defense, a facade that says we are somebody as a result of the traumatic experience of being told we are nobody at all. Be that nobody and be free.
 
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