Caravaggio: Nothing wrong with this thread apart from your initial premise.
M: I was trying, not to state my premise, but the premise I think many religious absolutists have about the threat they see is subjective atheism. I was looking for atheists to put forth a counter to this perception.
C: Perhaps a course in primate evolutionary biology would help you move on from the religion theme.
M: My position rests heavily on just that, but I want to hear something from the subjectivist. I am interested in that because, in my opinion at least, liberals come down more on the subjectivist side of things and conservatives more on the religious, which, also in my opinion, is why they more often win elections. I don't want to leave religion out of it therefore, because it is highly relevant to my position. I am hoping to get something from liberals what can compete with religious faith, something like what you suggest, but can have meaning for ordinary plain old normal off the street people.
C: If competition is the basis of your system why are there such things as welfare, charity, kindness, cooperation and mutual support, across both kin and non-kin?
(Try G. Wilkinson, "Blood Donation between Unrelated Vampire Bats", wiki.)
If bats can have friends, so can we. Or are you saying that bats believe in God?
Fehr and Feschbacher have shown that human groups accord status to peacemakers and negotiators.
M: That is not my system. I see competition as a huge part of the problem.
C: Religion does not make you 'good', it just fills your head with untestable assertions and nonsense and a pathetic need to conform to silly rules. Read Deuteronomy and have a really good laugh.
M: Religion obviously doesn't make you good. That is as far as I go.
C: Goodness comes from social living and cooperation.
M: I think one hand washes the other here.
C: Far from God making people moral, belief in rival Gods makes people psycho-killers of rival God-groups.
M: You say that's because people are too religious but I say it's because people aren't religious enough. They don't understand their own religion.
C: Heard of Islam vs Christianity? Budhists vs Hindu?
M: You mean those powerhouses of faith that have produced millions of loving people and also psychopaths. Yes I have.
I think if you look deeply religion is there to cure self hate, the deepest, most intractable, and most denied problem humanity faces. The last thing people what to know is how badly they really feel.
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